Appears to be a Fix for Gen 1 cars! Gen 2-3 are Software.

Factually true, but fails to grasp that by agreement the cars are not getting SCR (and aren't being required to achieve full compliance).

r11 said:

Sign me up for a massively discounted '16 TDI 6MT + life time supply of free air freshener to kill that I-sat-at-a-lot-for-2-years smell, for say 10K ?

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16's are on their way to south america...my source told me,

GoFaster said:

Factually true, but fails to grasp that by agreement the cars are not getting SCR (and aren't being required to achieve full compliance).

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...but ignorance about this point seems to be awfully persistent.

Frustratingly so.

I wonder if proposed consumers in Chile care about the gibberish units on the instruments and gibberish English-language labels in various places on cars intended for the US market. The ones originating in Canada would have correct instruments and symbols. I would consider this to be speculative without an independent source of that information.

BleachedBora said:

If the modifications take longer than 3 hours then the dealer is required to provide you with a loaner car.

-BB

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As I've read through the other posts, I keep coming back to that three hour window. That's a long time to spend at the VW dealer. I know most have shuttles to run you to work or home or where ever. Maybe I'll just go across the street and find a movie to sit through.

kjclow said:

As I've read through the other posts, I keep coming back to that three hour window. That's a long time to spend at the VW dealer. I know most have shuttles to run you to work or home or where ever. Maybe I'll just go across the street and find a movie to sit through.

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I think I would take that as a positive thing. If VW thinks that their techs can make the necessary hardware modifications in under 3 hours then (HOPEFULLY) they can't be doing too much damage......

tdiDreaming said:

I think I would take that as a positive thing. If VW thinks that their techs can make the necessary hardware modifications in under 3 hours then (HOPEFULLY) they can't be doing too much damage......

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That was my conclusion as well

Do you have any details on the software side of things?
Will there be a software change? and if so, any detailed knowledge of the changes?

like, will there be more regenerations or a detuning of any sort?

no issue that could not easily be cheaply switehed to sell cars w/Nonenglish measures

GoFaster said:

Frustratingly so.

I wonder if proposed consumers in Chile care about the gibberish units on the instruments and gibberish English-language labels in various places on cars intended for the US market.

The ones originating in Canada would have correct instruments and symbols.

I would consider this to be speculative without an independent source of that information.

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I would think it would be quite easy with the proper equipment to either swap out to metric only gauges & non-NA radio's which have even & odd number tuning options....

Or they could just use the metric & specific language stickers that are available down there for use in gray market cars sold in S. America would be easy to put over any english marked items.....

From my own travel experience gray market offerings from countries like Japan which doesn't allow older cars on their roads without paying extreme amounts of taxes & fees have for a long time been offered as a cheaper car for the masses in S. America & New Zealand.....

When I was down there last, I saw many of the cars I first saw new in Japan being driven around.

Many of the cars I saw from Japan on New Zealand & South American roads still had the Japanese city & province registration stickers on them from their time on Japan's roads...

Then those US/Canada spec instrument parts could be shelved for selling as OEM network replacement parts....

So I don't have first hand knowledge of where these cars might have gone....

But I see no issue that could not easily be cheaply dealt with to sell these things in a non-English measures or language country that has more reasonable emissions rules....

BleachedBora said:

Correct - as long as:

a) There is no check engine light for emissions related problems when you bring it in for the work to be done

-BB

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But....if the source of a CEL was the DPF filter, for example, and the fix involved replacing that part anyway, why would there be any point to correct that first?

We shall see....

the fix described in June court documents includes a new Nitrogen Storage Cat (NSC), aka NOX cat, Low pressure EGR filter, and exhaust flap.

for the 2009 and early 2010, the DPF has to be changed to replace the NSC (because they are welded together into a single part).

while DPF replacement is covered under the emissions fix warranty, it is not clear that they will be replaced free for all cars, if needed as part of the "fix".

I too watch with interest being an owner of an 09 with a cracked DPF and plugged filter. I will wait as long as possible to recall it so as to let others pave the way for me. There might be a couple of revisions to the recall as it starts to happen.

I have seen many factoy recalls from the service bay side of things and on a major one like this there will be policy changes along the way as unforeseen problems and trends develop.

They will want to do the recall as quickly as possible and try to save a nickle where they can. I am sure there will be a guideline booklet outlying policy for each tech as to what to do if....

On early cars I expect automatic DPF replacement due to logistics, though we might find that they engineered a very clever way to separate the NCS and rejoin the DPF to a new one, though doubtful.

With the required emissions warranty it is possible they will just do a shotgun fix to all. Drop the exhaust from the turbo to exhaust flap and bolt on new. Once the techs do a few they will learn shortcuts and get the job done in amazingly fast times, it always happens that way. I have no doubt they will beat the 3 hour time mentioned earlier for the fix even replacing the DPF. I remember doing Honda headgasket recalls in 1.5 hours on an Accord without air, when book time was 6.0 hours. Honda saw that too and cut the time to 3.0 hours eventually.

The new idea gains traction too when you consider the fact that the University that first blew the whistle on the cheat is just chomping at the bit to test a completed specimen and you know they will pick a random car or cars rather than one specially prepped by VW. Others will do the same, so absolutely every car that gets the fix has to work well or they will be in deeper than ever. I doubt they will risk much with their every action watched, it might be cheaper in the long run to replace it all with minimal labor costs and guaranteed results.

Mabey the plan is to add another NSC down stream. Just going off the 3 hour time window. I don't think it would be possible to replace the DPF in 3 hours.

I agree that it makes the most sense to have a bolt in kit and replace it all at one shot. That seems to be a way of doing business in most dealer shops these days anyway. Fix the problem by throwing parts at it.

cecaumenus said:

In light of the information about the Gen 1 fix provided at the beginning of this thread, I assume that recent articles in the press with statements such as the following are misguided:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/I...meet-emissions-standards-and-those-that-can-t

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The gen 1 cars will never be as clean as what they were originally certified to, but anyone who's bothered to read the court documents will have found that after CARB/EPA went over data with VW to come up with a realistic new target without a massive, complicated hardware retrofit that it would be to install an SCR/Adblue system, they came up with a less strict target for VW to meet, that while not as clean as what they originally were certified to, it will be cleaner than what they were actually putting out.

This was done with the express purpose of ensuring VW could meet the targets without such a complicated fix.

The other news somewhat underreported is that there has been significant advancements in injection strategy that is also helping to clean them up while retaining fuel economy and performance, or in some cases improving them. Gen 3 owners have noted a change in engine tone, particularly at idle and low RPMs, but have reported better response off the line and fuel economy either about the same or ever so slightly better than what they originally were.

So, all in all I think the fixes for any of the cars will end up being a decent outcome. Just a shame so many of them will be taken off the roads permanently (the ones in rougher shape with higher miles). It's also a shame that so much of the media mis-reporting/conjecture was the direct reason so many owners opted for the buy back up front, out of fear that any fix would negatively impact their car's performance or fuel economy. Unfortunately, some of those owners were hoping to have a newer TDI to replace their bought back cars with, only to find out there are none.

But, I also suspect that they have to apply the fix to a higher mileage car if you're the owner of the vehicle and are requesting the fix be applied to it. Their rule about not fixing high mileage cars is only being applied to what has already been bought back, not owners who are keeping their cars and having the fix done.

This has me really excited. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If the Gen 1 cars are fixed I'm interested in what the Dealers will be fetching.

I wouldn't be surprised if VW does not sell the fixed cars through the dealer network. Dump them off to someone like Carmax. Keeps the dealers pushing new cars.

We keep forgetting that there's no "fix". There's a 90% band-aid, that brings the cars to pollute at may be 2-3x rate of by-the-book-EPA-book numbers.

There's, of course, the question of whether those EPA-mandated Nox were ever realistic to begin with

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sardo_67 said:

that there is the real issue, not VW.

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Is that so? I wonder how BMW did it? Oh yeah, they used parts that actually work all the time.

kjclow said:

I wouldn't be surprised if VW does not sell the fixed cars through the dealer network. Dump them off to someone like Carmax. Keeps the dealers pushing new cars.

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Dealers I talk to are very interested in getting fixed TDIs as CPO vehicles. I think CPOs are pretty lucrative for them.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Dealers I talk to are very interested in getting fixed TDIs as CPO vehicles. I think CPOs are pretty lucrative for them.

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Additionally, the CPO program would include a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty.

fnjimmy! said:

Is that so? I wonder how BMW did it? Oh yeah, they used parts that actually work all the time.

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Or how GM did it, for that matter.

(Now we know why a Cruze diesel was $26k, when a Jetta was $22k... because GM actually bought the emissions controls.)

Part 1 DONE!

Got the software re-flash done last week.
Drove into work the next day to get a feel for anything different.
There wasn't....................
Same performance, same milage driving into work (45 mile drive into downtown Seattle from my house) 59.3 mpg.
And for the next week, again, no difference, even motor sound, at all.
I think they just stuck their hands out towards the module and said 'FLASH'!
LOL................................
I Love my TDI Jetta.
And the $ brought the selling price down to $14,900!
Now That's a Sale price I can Live with!

the beave

Rhino1829 said:

If it's a full turbo back, then it's for sure deleted of at least the dpf and cats. I'm in a similar boat being deleted, and have several "what if" scenarios running through my head. If it's running the cr140 or 170 turbo the OE emissions components should just bolt up. Get those bits put on, retune, and go to the dealer for the fix...simple solution there. My concern is rolling up with a gtb series turbo and how the dealer would react, let alone what they'd do, or not do.
I'm in for the fix but am planning on holding out to see what some of the other guys/gals who are modded end up experiencing and make my plan from there.

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Been running like before. I am very relieved and happy.
the beave

bhtooefr said:

Or how GM did it, for that matter.
(Now we know why a Cruze diesel was $26k, when a Jetta was $22k... because GM actually bought the emissions controls.)

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???do we have any actual real world test data to back that comment up???

or are they just like the current chrysler diesel offerings, programmed for real world driving which allows them to exceed those stupid current emissions limits required of cars that make up less than 0.01 % of what is on the road today???....!!!....

they passed with an extra ~$25k in the purchase price!

fnjimmy! said:

Is that so? I wonder how BMW did it? Oh yeah, they used parts that actually work all the time.

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with an extra ~$25k in the purchase price! they also have a bigger engine, two turbos and an automatic transmission, all of which makes passing these stupid never about cleaning up any air emissions regs more possible to pass on the bench test!

BMW is selling 2 L 4 cylinders too. The VW cheat was just blatant thumbing the nose at the regulations. In hindsight, I'm sure they wish they had just been honest and used scr from the get go.

turbobrick240 said:

BMW is selling 2 L 4 cylinders too. The VW cheat was just blatant thumbing the nose at the regulations. In hindsight, I'm sure they wish they had just been honest and used scr from the get go.

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they are today, but when our first CRs started being sold they sold a much bigger sized engine in the cars which had the diesel option....

Also their smaller engine on sale today is also a twin turbo unit, giving much more control over egr low & high pressure systems.....

again we are talking about double or more the price of any VW 2L TDI-CR......

!!!!!So again not a fair comparison in any way!!!!!

Yeah, $15 billion will get the attention of even the largest of companies.

rotarykid said:

with an extra ~$25k in the purchase price!

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Wrong

rotarykid said:

they also have a bigger engine,

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Wrong

rotarykid said:

two turbos

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Wrong

rotarykid said:

and an automatic transmission, all of which makes passing these stupid never about cleaning up any air emissions regs more possible to pass on the bench test!

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LOLWUT?

The 2015 BMW 328d MSRP was US$38,600. That car was equipped with a 2.0 litre single-turbocharged 4-cylinder engine and an automatic transmission. OTOH MSRP for a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium was US$34,745 which came equipped with a 2.0 litre single-turbo-charged 4-cylinder engine and automatic transmission. So, for only US$3855 you get rear-wheel-drive and a functioning emissions system. Not too shabby.

fnjimmy! said:

Wrong
Wrong
Wrong
LOLWUT?
The 2015 BMW 328d MSRP was US$38,600. That car was equipped with a 2.0 litre single-turbocharged 4-cylinder engine and an automatic transmission. OTOH MSRP for a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium was US$34,745 which came equipped with a 2.0 litre single-turbo-charged 4-cylinder engine and automatic transmission. So, for only US$3855 you get rear-wheel-drive and a functioning emissions system. Not too shabby.

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Come on......ARe you really saying comparing a base of one to maximum available model in the other is any way compares.....Compares to WHAT???your statement is meaningless BS!@!

You want to compare prices, then compare What was actually sold first by BMW sold to the actual sold first generations of the CR engine's cars. and you compare base to base, your comparison is meaningless BS!!!!


you are comparing a base BMW that cannot/could not even be purchased anywhere in the US to a fully loaded VW TDI-CR with every option offered, how is that fair or in any way an equal comparison????

A base Jetta/Golf TDi-CR a car that could actually be found & purchased was what ~22-24k, the Passat which is much more car than the Jetta/Golf which could be out the door for that to what(~25-26k for a base TDI-CR).....

Using your BMW base model list price, a car no one sells in that base model for anything close to that base price comparison numbers comparing real VW cars that could have been actually bought new you are talking about ~16k more for the base to base Jetta/Golf & 13-14k more base to base.....

Now here is the reality I have looked at BMW dealers and found that to get this car (the lowest cost version available) will cost you at least 45-47k when minimum on car markups, options & equipment are figured in....

Using the actual prices I have seen on the cars available on a lot base to base, the only comparison that really maters......22-24k to 45-47 ~~ a 23k more difference from VW diesels to BMW recently offered diesels!

And if you want to compare a fully loaded of each, you get can get that BMW's price very close to that ~55-60k mark, comparing your actually sold fully loaded cars gives even more difference...... ~31k for a fully loaded Jetta/Golf gives 24-29k more difference & on your Passat gives 20-25k more difference....

And on comparing the actual competitor to the BMW offering today to the current CR cars with the E288 engine that have urea they can be brought within spec fairly easily with programming changes and a little different emissions equipment....

But the only fair comparison to the previous VW CRs is to compare what the actual larger engine'd BMW cost when they were being sold. And if you are going to compare base in one, then the only real comparison is base in the other one!!!!!

Your comparison is just a lot on BS, comparing the current BMW car base price, a price not possible to find on a car with at least 7 years of improvement to emissions tech to what VW was doing 7 years ago, come on you can't be that uninformed and be on here......