Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

wxman said:

I have a son who now owns an i-Pace. He took delivery in March 2019. His i-Pace looks almost identical to the one in the video, except for being a left-side drive of course.
He has ~40 mile commute (each way) and this EV works very well for him. There are several courtesy chargers where he is employed, and usually is able to charge his i-Pace there for free. He has a 220V Level 2 charger at his home.
His experience is similar to that in the video - rated range is difficult to achieve, especially in less-than-ideal conditions.
I've had the opportunity to drive his i-Pace on several occasions. Like the instant torque! The aggressive regen braking takes some time to adjust to.
Generally agree with the video - i-Pace works very well in local driving, not ideal for long-range driving.

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That's awesome! I assume your son is quite happy with his i-Pace. It's encouraging to see some really decent non-Tesla EV's in the marketplace now. The Porsche Taycan is looking to do much better range-wise than the EPA numbers suggest. Competition can only be good for EV development.

Nuje said:

Plenty of surface streets in SoCal (and I assume other areas of the country) have 55mph speed limits, so this could actually be a real-world situation.

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No, this is not a real world situation, there is absolutely no NEED to ever do 0-60 in 2 seconds on a public road, I don't care if people do it, but if you to think there is a need for it, and for you to believe that 0-60 dropping to 4-5 seconds is some sort of dangerous situation is just flat out absurd.

Few cars can go 0-60 as fast as the tesla does once its been hammered on, and they all get by just fine.

Of course there's no need. Just like there's no need to go 0-60 in under 7 seconds. Or under 12 seconds. Or under 20seconds. But yet....

Nuje said:

Of course there's no need. Just like there's no need to go 0-60 in under 7 seconds. Or under 12 seconds. Or under 20seconds. But yet....

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.... I would phrase it as no real world OPPORTUNITY. I definitely 'punch it' a lot when I'm going around town at stop lights. In 7 years I've never had an issue with the car over heating. You're only going to notice a difference on track day.

It doesn't look to me like Car & Driver did separate 1/4 mile and 0-60 runs. So, in real world use, the 0-60 performance shouldn't be degraded nearly as quickly.

Nuje said:

Of course there's no need. Just like there's no need to go 0-60 in under 7 seconds. Or under 12 seconds. Or under 20seconds. But yet....

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Yes in a rural area, you might be right.

But try to merge in a busy city - 0-60 of 6 seconds is about right...

I drove my 90 hp 2000 TDI beetle for 10 years and can only remember once or twice where I wished it had more power and that's driving the NASCAR streets of Charlotte. I remember the sales brochure for the beetle, "0-60...yes".

I have put over 400,000 miles on my 52hp Jetta and never had an issue getting up to speed either.

Driving a 50 HP Mk2 can be a lot of fun. I know I passed my share of people in my ECOdiesel back in the day.

However, driving our 500 HP Model 3 is a lot of fun too Compared to our DSG Passat, I'm *way* more confident pulling into traffic.

-J

Tin Man said:

Yes in a rural area, you might be right.
But try to merge in a busy city - 0-60 of 6 seconds is about right...

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I've never owned a car or truck that would do that. Bikes, different story.

Throw bikes into the equation and it's a totally different story. My bike can go 0-16mph in about two minutes, unless I'm pointing downhill.

Two minutes? Man, you need to get a tune on that thing! jk.

When I'm tuned, the wife won't ride behind me!

Sub $15000 EVs

turbobrick240 said:

That's awesome! I assume your son is quite happy with his i-Pace. It's encouraging to see some really decent non-Tesla EV's in the marketplace now. The Porsche Taycan is looking to do much better range-wise than the EPA numbers suggest. Competition can only be good for EV development.

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Teslas, Porsches, Jaguars, Audis all making nice$$$$ EVs.

How about seeing more posts in this thread of folks buying a sub $15000 used EV and sharing true cost of ownership (or close enough) so it can be compared for those looking at alternatives to an ICE Corolla/Civic/Golf/Jetta/etc.?

No need to go from 0 to 60 MPH in so few seconds!

Yeah, I welcome more user experience posts from owners of any of the EV manufacturers/models. The more info. the better. Some of us might be in the market for a $30k+ new car, and some of us may be looking for a $5000-10,000 used EV.

The first generation (c.2012-2013) Tesla Model S cars are coming up on 7-8yrs. old, so I am very curious as to the following:
(a) what the battery life is like at this point - like, is there a significant degradation;
(b) what Tesla's solution (and cost) is to replacing significantly degraded batteries
(c) what the going price is for a 5-7yr. old Model S with 100K+ miles on it

turbobrick240 said:

Yeah, I welcome more user experience posts from owners of any of the EV manufacturers/models. The more info. the better. Some of us might be in the market for a $30k+ new car, and some of us may be looking for a $5000-10,000 used EV.

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As for other models, while not pure electric, our plug-in hybrid A3 e-tron is the perfect city-car for us. It gets driven pretty much every day, but rarely more than 20km in total - so our second car being another TDI (which it was for a while) made absolutely zero sense.

At the same time, taking the A3 on a long road trip requires exactly zero extra planning - just the knowledge that we're going to be making gas stops every 400km or so. The 1.4L TSI in that car gets around 6.3L/100km on the highway, which isn't as good as my Mk7 TDI GSW, but still more than good enough.

While list was over $50K (CAD), we got it used with about 30K km on it for less than two-thirds that price.

I am curious about the new(ish) Hyundai Kona EV - that looks like an enticing and relatively (relative to other 400km+ range EVs) affordable option.

PHEV's are EV's too. I might go take a look at the local VW dealerships PHEV options. What kind of range does the A3 e-tron get on battery only? A good portion of my driving is on fairly short trips. The 1.4 tsi is quite a good engine from what I've been hearing.

13 months after I bought it for $10,000 from Carvana, I still enjoy driving my little Spark EV. When I know I'll be going o a long run, I still have my Volt, which right now is averaging 78% EV use.

turbobrick240 said:

PHEV's are EV's too. I might go take a look at the local VW dealerships PHEV options. What kind of range does the A3 e-tron get on battery only? A good portion of my driving is on fairly short trips. The 1.4 tsi is quite a good engine from what I've been hearing.

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In the winter, with heat, seat heaters, wipers, lights on, it'll be down to a little over 20km (12miles); summer time without those large energy draws, it's more like 30km (20miles).
Like I said, for us in a small town (pop. 30K), it's the perfect car. We charge at home on 120V - takes maybe 6hrs from near-empty - and have never really had the need to get 240V. Car comes with charger that includes both 120 and 240V adapters.

Nuje said:

In the winter, with heat, seat heaters, wipers, lights on, it'll be down to a little over 20km (12miles); summer time without those large energy draws, it's more like 30km (20miles).
Like I said, for us in a small town (pop. 30K), it's the perfect car. We charge at home on 120V - takes maybe 6hrs from near-empty - and have never really had the need to get 240V. Car comes with charger that includes both 120 and 240V adapters.

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I've lived in a small town of 30K and one can see that many feel a 90 mile plus in one direction trip is nothing. A few can be found that have never stepped foot outside their county (yes, they exist). But the lack of services and public transportation will make EV ownership in small town America, as well as the reliance on farming (read: diesel) is too overwhelming for me to give any credence to the whims of EV lovers. Do I think its possible with some huge investment in infrastructure and public charging stations will make EV ownership attractive to small town America? Sure. Just like rural economics changing completely and allowing all the extras of city life to occur. One example is high speed Internet making strides in rural areas - trying for 30 years now! Hasn't happened in a millennia as far as I can tell....

Satellite constellations will soon bring affordable high speed internet to virtually every nook and cranny on the planet. It will be a huge equalizer. The technological changes in the last 50 years are pretty remarkable. When my parents purchased the farm in the early 70's everyone on our road shared one phone line!

Satellite internet is terrible. I have the perfect angle and no obstructions, my internet is still slow. I am limited on usage (20G/month then they limit speed) for $70/month. If its raining or snowing you might as well not even try doing anything.
I cant wait till they run cable the rest of the way up our road. its only 1 mile away and there are already poles from the e company. They wouldn't run it up the road 15 yrs ago because there was no interest (ie, too many old people that didnt have computers). Cable around here is unlimited data, +10x speed and more reliable than satellite for $50-60/month. Whats even more disappointing is that there are areas more rural than where it live that have cable. I dont understand how they got it.
Im not for Gov fixing all our little problems, but if they were deciding between spending money on highspeed internet or charging stations. Id hope they would do internet improvements first. The tech world is standardized already. the auto industry cant agree on a charging plug yet.

Satellite internet is a joke. It is awful. It is my only choice being in a rural area, and it is not worth the price they want for it. My dad has it, and it is just terrible. They have a long way to go before that is a thing.

Been in my house for 21 years, cable internet is getting closer and closer, but still not to me, and DSL is not available either. It is literally less than 1/8 mile from me, though.

If it were an option today, you could join the work crew to get the cable/dsl lines run to your house. My granddad worked for the CCC in the 30s long enough to get electricity run to his farm in central Iowa. Of course the neighbors also benefited.

oilhammer said:

Satellite internet is a joke. It is awful.

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vandermic07 said:

Satellite internet is terrible. I have the perfect angle and no obstructions, my internet is still slow.... The tech world is standardized already. the auto industry cant agree on a charging plug yet.

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Have you not heard of 'Starlink'? From what I can tell the largest constellation of satellites providing internet is 'Iridium' with 95. 'Starlink' will be ~12,000. They've already launched >200 and should begin offering service later this year.

While there are non-compatible fast charging standards all EVs can use J1772. Only Tesla doesn't use J1772 in North America and every Tesla comes with a J1772 adapter. While fast charging is problematic since there's no one standard and it's expensive providing L2 charging is cheap and easy.

tikal said:

How about seeing more posts in this thread of folks buying a sub $15000 used EV and sharing true cost of ownership (or close enough) so it can be compared for those looking at alternatives to an ICE Corolla/Civic/Golf/Jetta/etc.?

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In 2017 we bought a 2013 Fiat 500e from a Fiat dealer in PA. It had 9,000 miles and cost $8000, with a Fiat CPO warranty.

It's closing in on 30,000 miles now. In that time it's had a rear wheel bearing replaced under warranty ($150 deductable), I've replaced the tires ($380 for 4 Yokohamas), wiper blades, and the 12v battery. I also changed out the brake fluid in the master cylinder reservoir. Oh and a few refills of the washer fluid. That's it!

This summer I'll look into changing the coolant.

The car gets around 4 miles per kWh, with with our electric rates means about $0.03/mile in energy costs.... so about $600 in electricity. That same miles in the Mk4 Jetta would have cost about $1400 in Diesel.

Thanks,

nwdiver said:

Have you not heard of 'Starlink'? From what I can tell the largest constellation of satellites providing internet is 'Iridium' with 95. 'Starlink' will be ~12,000. They've already launched >200 and should begin offering service later this year.

While there are non-compatible fast charging standards all EVs can use J1772. Only Tesla doesn't use J1772 in North America and every Tesla comes with a J1772 adapter. While fast charging is problematic since there's no one standard and it's expensive providing L2 charging is cheap and easy.

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There could be a million, and the latency of the long haulup and back will still be a problem. TCP/IP just does not run well on high latency connections . . .

tadawson said:

There could be a million, and the latency of the long haulup and back will still be a problem. TCP/IP just does not run well on high latency connections . . .

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Latency is really only an issue if you're gaming. Even there Starlink won't be nearly as bad as current options since the satellites will be in a lower orbit of ~210 miles vs ~485 miles for Iridium or ~22,000 miles for Hughes net.

Most satellite internet currently uses geostationary satellites while starlink will be in LEO. The latency with LEO based internet will be SIGNIFICANTLY better.

Yeah, the traditional geostationary sats have latencies of 600 ms or more. The starlink sats should be around 30 ms.