GoFaster
Moderator at Large
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3833286&postcount=118
Also apparent from this one, that having VW cover this under warranty without question, is still not a slam dunk.
NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation
- Thread starter dzcad90
- Start date
Also apparent from this one, that having VW cover this under warranty without question, is still not a slam dunk.
C
Central Scrutinizer
Guest
Same here. I figure in 2 1/2 - 3 years, when my 2012 JSW goes out of warranty, that the number of failures for 2011+ CRs will either have declined to near zero (perhaps explainable by misfueling), the NHTSA investigation will have concluded *something* in owner's favor, or any number of DIY solutions to contain the carnage will have been sorted out.
Or any/all of the above.
Or none, and I'll never hear the end of it from my better half.
dreamerak
Member
I live in Washington State, all the safeway fuel stations carry B5 made by REG, which exceeds ASTM specs....http://soypower.com/pdfs/REG-9000 Spec Sheet March 2010.pdf
And another one, owner fighting with the dealership over coverage.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3834832&postcount=120
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So I ask you what does that REG 9000-1 9000-5 and 9000-10 tell you about the base stock that they are manufacturing their biodiesel out of? My guess is the higher the number on the end of the 9000, the more grease renderings and animal fat the product is made out of, due to the cloud point being so much higher on the fuel temperature wise, the higher the end number, 1,5,10.
Ask them what their base stock is, and if it's not Virgin Soy or Rapeseed oil, it's made out of garbage. You need to get ahold of someone way high up at the business to get a straight answer on what their base stock is, or the production manager.
Trooper81
Veteran Member
that link shows a used oil analysis.
dreamerak
Member
The 1...5...10 refer to B1...B5...B10....http://www.regfuel.com/reg-9000/reg-9000-fuelSo I ask you what does that REG 9000-1 9000-5 and 9000-10 tell you about the base stock that they are manufacturing their biodiesel out of? My guess is the higher the number on the end of the 9000, the more grease renderings and animal fat the product is made out of, due to the cloud point being so much higher on the fuel temperature wise, the higher the end number, 1,5,10.
Ask them what their base stock is, and if it's not Virgin Soy or Rapeseed oil, it's made out of garbage. You need to get ahold of someone way high up at the business to get a straight answer on what their base stock is, or the production manager.
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So you are telling me that their b10 clouds at up to 54 F? What kind of plant oil is that? Page 2 on this PDF http://www.regfuel.com/sites/default/files/REG9000 Fact Sheet.Distributor March. 2012.pdf
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dreamerak
Member
Why not seed them an e-mail? I'm sure they will answer all your questions. let us know what they say.
highender
Veteran Member
what he said ^^^^
No matter what NHTSA says, having Fuel pumps self destruct is not normal for any vehicle any badge. Even if mine does not break, I would still be willing to join in a class action, since the possibility of such an issue is a risk that was not disclosed to me when I bought the vehicle.
I surely hope it does not come down to that, as it would affect the TDI brand engines, having long term affect on the company. VW and Bosch are all rich enouugh and hopefully smart enough, to fix the problem......
Hope the agencies take the necessary steps to solve this.
I have been adding a tiny bit of additive for lubricity, plus less than B-5 , to lubricate the HPFP.... assuming it works. ???!!!!!
dang! i should hope not. my bio is made from LARD (pig) and it doesn't even cloud at 54, more like 40 degrees.
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
If it's plant-based, it's likely palm oil or something like that.
Otherwise, it might be beef tallow or chicken fat or something.
Otherwise, it might be beef tallow or chicken fat or something.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
Well it looks like we have to wait longer for the VW documents. From NHTSA letter granting an extension to VW response to NHTSA:
Second Turbo
Veteran Member
the big when
If and when the documents do show up on the NHTSA web, don't be surprised if it's after the market close on a Friday.
Probably not today.
If and when the documents do show up on the NHTSA web, don't be surprised if it's after the market close on a Friday.
Probably not today.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
Pool on date of last VW document to be posted online?
50-80 documents per packet. Looks like there's a about 28 packets or over 1400 documents. My guess is many will need to be redacted. So, I think we will be lucky to see any soon.
It wouldn't surprise me if the last document to be posted online would be after the one year aniversary of the original due date.
And then how long will it take NHTSA to digest the data? - likely more questions, clarifications and so forth - and then to formulate a ruling?
Well to those that indicated they would unload their TDIs before 60k miles if there's no / unfavorable ruling, mothball your TDI or be prepared to unload. I'm past 60k, so it looks like I'm in it for the long haul.
50-80 documents per packet. Looks like there's a about 28 packets or over 1400 documents. My guess is many will need to be redacted. So, I think we will be lucky to see any soon.
It wouldn't surprise me if the last document to be posted online would be after the one year aniversary of the original due date.
And then how long will it take NHTSA to digest the data? - likely more questions, clarifications and so forth - and then to formulate a ruling?
Well to those that indicated they would unload their TDIs before 60k miles if there's no / unfavorable ruling, mothball your TDI or be prepared to unload.
I'm past 60k, so it looks like I'm in it for the long haul.Charrigan
Veteran Member
I'll be keeping mine until a ruling. I'll be at 100k by the end of summer.
Second Turbo
Veteran Member
Spill some coffee in the scanner, too
Plus 3 Golfer: > ...NHTSA letter granting an extension to VW response to NHTSA:
which in part said ...
Volkswagen explained that the request was predicated on the volume of documents which must be reformatted and translated from non-editable PDF documents.
I take this to mean that VW originally planned to turn in PDFs derived from scans of paper documents, in German. These would be documents that are quite likely all less than 10 years old, and most less than 5.
This is what you'd do if you wanted to impede extraction of useful information in another country. I won't speculate on the actual intent.
You'd additionally do the scan at low res (FAX or less) and low contrast, to further impede recovery of the plain text via OCR.
Acrobat Pro these days, given decent scan quality, can OCR and recover both the plain text, and the fonts (generating new outline families as needed). I've used it, plus Google Translate, to get rough translations from paper copies of foreign magazine articles.
At my day job, we have many legacy (20-30 yr. old) manuals which now exist only as hard copy. We scan these to PDF, at high res, with OCR, and put them on our web for free, to make them as useful as possible to customers with older equipment. This may not be a description of VW's EA11-003 process.
Plus 3 Golfer: > ...NHTSA letter granting an extension to VW response to NHTSA:
which in part said ...
Volkswagen explained that the request was predicated on the volume of documents which must be reformatted and translated from non-editable PDF documents.
I take this to mean that VW originally planned to turn in PDFs derived from scans of paper documents, in German. These would be documents that are quite likely all less than 10 years old, and most less than 5.
This is what you'd do if you wanted to impede extraction of useful information in another country. I won't speculate on the actual intent.
You'd additionally do the scan at low res (FAX or less) and low contrast, to further impede recovery of the plain text via OCR.
Acrobat Pro these days, given decent scan quality, can OCR and recover both the plain text, and the fonts (generating new outline families as needed). I've used it, plus Google Translate, to get rough translations from paper copies of foreign magazine articles.
At my day job, we have many legacy (20-30 yr. old) manuals which now exist only as hard copy. We scan these to PDF, at high res, with OCR, and put them on our web for free, to make them as useful as possible to customers with older equipment. This may not be a description of VW's EA11-003 process
.Plus 3 Golfer: > ...NHTSA letter granting an extension to VW response to NHTSA:
which in part said ...
Volkswagen explained that the request was predicated on the volume of documents which must be reformatted and translated from non-editable PDF documents.
I take this to mean that VW originally planned to turn in PDFs derived from scans of paper documents, in German. These would be documents that are quite likely all less than 10 years old, and most less than 5.
This is what you'd do if you wanted to impede extraction of useful information in another country. I won't speculate on the actual intent.
You'd additionally do the scan at low res (FAX or less) and low contrast, to further impede recovery of the plain text via OCR.
Acrobat Pro these days, given decent scan quality, can OCR and recover both the plain text, and the fonts (generating new outline families as needed). I've used it, plus Google Translate, to get rough translations from paper copies of foreign magazine articles.
At my day job, we have many legacy (20-30 yr. old) manuals which now exist only as hard copy. We scan these to PDF, at high res, with OCR, and put them on our web for free, to make them as useful as possible to customers with older equipment. This may not be a description of VW's EA11-003 process
Sounds like it to me. No one gets to turn in non-English docs to the US Government. It is nearly impossible to think VW would not be aware they would be required to do the translation themselves. I just hope NHTSA gets both original and translated documents. Wouldn't shock me if someone fudged the translation, I catch it myself all the time.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
NHTSA had already granted an extension until June 1 to submit the translated documents. This is the second extension. The original deadline for submital was in early Dec. 2011 which probably was a little ambitious.
IMHO, if VW submits all documents (just look at the IR for what documents include) there will likely be something that will contradict VW position on the HPFP issue. I've seen it happen several times when hand written comments on reports, meetings agendas and so forth cast doubt on an issue. I also had a boss 25 years ago that when he found out he had to submit his files, he took them home and thought that since they weren't in the office the notes he made on reports and so forth weren't discoverable - wrong.
This is quite common... I went on vacation once, with one of my files locked up in my desk... when I came back, my desk was unlocked, with an individual claiming they needed access.NHTSA had already granted an extension until June 1 to submit the translated documents. This is the second extension. The original deadline for submital was in early Dec. 2011 which probably was a little ambitious.
IMHO, if VW submits all documents (just look at the IR for what documents include) there will likely be something that will contradict VW position on the HPFP issue. I've seen it happen several times when hand written comments on reports, meetings agendas and so forth cast doubt on an issue. I also had a boss 25 years ago that when he found out he had to submit his files, he took them home and thought that since they weren't in the office the notes he made on reports and so forth weren't discoverable - wrong.
I know there was nothing that important, based on my position, that couldn't wait for me to get back from a 3 day vacation. My boss terminated the perpetrator shortly thereafter.
My neighbor retired from the Secret Service in 2003. He was detailed to Hillary Clinton. Let's just say he was responsible for a lot of files supoeona'd by court that were the property of the Rose Hill law firm that never showed up.
A couple of times, he completely shut down all flights going in and out of L A International Airport, for quite some time, once, while Airforce 1 landed, so that Bill Clinton could get a $300+ hair cut while in town. True story.
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Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
You need to read the Information Request especially the questions on this Dephi press release particularly the paragraph below. Note the wording "the design safely prevents ...which eliminates the risk of fatal pump damage" implying the previous designs were flawed. Virtually all the technical documents are likely in German.
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I'm not a judge, but from my perspective, that's a smoking gun... how would Delphi get that information, and claim it in their marketing, except by working in conjunction with Volkswagen on their next HPFP design to overcome the Bosch problem? Bosch certainly would never have leaked that, it's certainly proprietary information, from my perspective.
To this day, Bosch remains silent on the subject matter. How else would Delphi get this information, perhaps a disgruntled Bosch diesel pump engineer with a Phd that defected to Delphi when his pump design got over looked for a cheaper,more failure prone design? Any lawsuits by Bosch suing Delphi for proprietary information that went with a former employee, or a non disclosure agreement being broken for the exiting employee?
Bosch flat out claimed in the design that it was "self aligning".... a boastful claim that has been proven as a false statement. judging by some of the failure analysis cases where it obviously was 90 degrees out of alignment, and grinding the roller against the cam.
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Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
It certainly is an indication that the cylindrical shoe holder for the roller in the Bosch design is inferior to the square Delphi design; that the Bosch design can / has suffered fatal pump failure; and that the Delphi design safely eliminates the lateral rotation which causes the fatal pump failures in the Bosch design.
IMHO, the Delphi press release is a very profound statement with respect to the safety aspects of the Bosch design.
It certainly appears NHTSA engineers feel likewise. I've said this before I just hope we get to see VW's responses (hope they are not redacted). As we know, VW has been hiding behind contaminated fuel and poor quality retail fuel as being the root cause. Again as we know from fuel survey data already submitted, many fuel samples did not meet lubricity standards for whatever reason (maybe a small percentage of gas in the fuel, maybe none / not enough lubricity enhancement of the base fuel and so forth).
But, the real issue IMHO is that VW must sell a product that is fit for use in the market. Apparently, VW has not done that by putting the Bosch pump in the CR given that a poor fuel supply may exacerbate the issue (Bosch reports on what happens using poor lubricity fuel) and the likelihood of the roller shoe rotating for whatever reason causing a failure that is unsafe. The pump is basically "designed to fail" in an unsafe manner (stalling while driving). Again NHTSA appears to be concerned on what fuels were used in testing and as stated above the design of the pumps.
But unless VW steps up to remedy the apparent issues in the design, the NHTSA process could go on for a long time assuming NHTSA believes this is a safety issue.
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
I think VW/Bosch has already remedied the design problem. The redesign of the 2012 Passat fuel system has yet to show up with a hpfp failure. That's not to say that failures are not possible. But one would think if the old problem was still there we would have seen at least one failure by now.
I have not kept up with the NHSTA Investigation,but I think there has only been one minor accident atributed to a hpfp failure and stalling. So,I'm not counting on the NHSTA on bailing owners out of what will become a nightmare for some out of warranty or used car owners.
Although the rest of the model line seems to have the same fuel system as the older MY CR's I think there has been more revisions to improve the metallurgy in the pump casing pistion bore and possibly the metallurgy of the piston cup.
Of course as with everything else in life............................only time will tell.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
But this offers no consolation to the 2009, 2010 and maybe some 2011 owners who have an older revision level pump. There's no question that Bosch has made revisions to the pump to make them more robust - which is good. If so, then a simple solution is to replace say 150k+ or so pumps. But if I were VW, I'd fight NHTSA rather than spend say $20-40 million or so replacing all pumps and also simply replace pumps for the original owners when the pumps fail even past warranty (which they seem to be doing) at considerably less cost. If VW replaces the failed pumps free, there's also little basis for a class action suit. So, it seems to make economic sense for VW to argue that the cause is contaminated / poor quality fuel not the design.
Also, the number of accidents is really immaterial. How many CR fuel pipes have ruptured and how many have caused a fire? Yet VW issued a recall to put dampers on the lines because of the possibilty of a catastrophic outcome from a very unlikely fuel line rupture. I'll bet there are less failures of the fuel line than HPFPs.
Yep, time will tell. I'm hoping my replaced HPFP is the 3rd revision and lasts at least 3X as long as my original.
Just thinking out loud here: Delphi was owned, more or less, in one way or another by GM until 2011 IIRC. Did GM ever use the Bosch pump in their diesel's? I could of sworn they did, but unsure. Maybe GM saw the problem and asked Delphi to fix it?
Speaking of that, can I put a Delphi pump in my car? Seriously, what would the preventative maintenance cost be? This assumes of course the Delphi pump is better.
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
The Delphi pump will require different tuning, may require a different ECU entirely, and may not be able to deliver enough fuel.
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
I doubt that there will ever be any consolation of the early MY CR owners. This will just drag out for a very long time with VW doing out of warranty repairs under warranty on vehicles IF you are the original owner. The used car owners will face a whole other story and this is where the greatest impact to owners is going to be. You are absolutely correct in that it makes best economic sense for VW to just keep plugging along and do repairs as needed.But this offers no consolation to the 2009, 2010 and maybe some 2011 owners who have an older revision level pump. There's no question that Bosch has made revisions to the pump to make them more robust - which is good. If so, then a simple solution is to replace say 150k+ or so pumps. But if I were VW, I'd fight NHTSA rather than spend say $20-40 million or so replacing all pumps and also simply replace pumps for the original owners when the pumps fail even past warranty (which they seem to be doing) at considerably less cost. If VW replaces the failed pumps free, there's also little basis for a class action suit. So, it seems to make economic sense for VW to argue that the cause is contaminated / poor quality fuel not the design.
Also, the number of accidents is really immaterial. How many CR fuel pipes have ruptured and how many have caused a fire? Yet VW issued a recall to put dampers on the lines because of the possibilty of a catastrophic outcome from a very unlikely fuel line rupture. I'll bet there are less failures of the fuel line than HPFPs.
Yep, time will tell. I'm hoping my replaced HPFP is the 3rd revision and lasts at least 3X as long as my original.
The fuel line resonance problem is entirely different in that there were several cases that fuel lines leaked fuel into the engine compartment which definately represents a fire hazard.There was also a production run of fuel lines that were defective. A disabled vehicle from a hpfp............not so much risk.It can be a risk,but I think its low.
sgoldste01
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Location
- Webster, NY
- TDI
- None; Replaced 2010 Golf TDI with 2012 Subaru Impreza 5-door with manual tranny
Two stupid questions:
- My car had a fuel leak (not related to the resonance thing), and ended up spewing 3-4 gallons of fuel all over the engine compartment, along the bottom-side of the car, and up onto the rear hatch (the fuel flowed like this because I was driving at highway speeds). How much danger was I in? I thought diesel fuel mainly combusted under pressure, thereby reducing the risk.
- Why are original owners treated differently from used car owners? A pattern failure is a pattern failure, regardless of who owns the car.