NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

thebigarniedog · Apr 21, 2012

pcnorton said:
I did the research. Read the forums and listened to those that say its only 1% failure rate. I figured those with problems are an exaggeration. After the second fuel system swap at 35k, with all my fuel bought a high turnover stations, kept my receipts, no mis fuels. So now I am trading in the vehicle if I don't take so much of a hit. So to those that will tell you drive more worry less, I say yes if you plan on selling after warranty is out or you routinely have 8k available.

Paul

That is the unfortunate reality. What VW will realize is that this type of PR will kill their brand, similar to what happened to the Audi 5000 wherein the same arguments were advanced by Audi to explain the sudden acceleration. It is called "Blame the customer first". The bottom line is that VW does not desire to fix the problem. Their silence is defeaning. Their second option is to warrant lifetime original owner the HPFP and for subsequent owner(s) for a certain number of years/mileage. Again, all I hear is crickets.

What they will probably do is nothing and just phase this engine design out. But hey, guys like GTIDAN will continue to join in and blame the victims ......

tomo366 said:
Spoken like a true Lawyer.....

Yes it seems my signature defines people like you well. You can't discuss the matter civilly, so you resort to ad hominem weak minded crap like your above comment to dismiss what happened to fellow club members. Wow, just wow .........

tomo366 · Apr 21, 2012

thebigarniedog said:
That is the unfortunate reality. What VW will realize is that this type of PR will kill their brand, similar to what happened to the Audi 5000 wherein the same arguments were advanced by Audi to explain the sudden acceleration. It is called "Blame the customer first". The bottom line is that VW does not desire to fix the problem. Their silence is defeaning. Their second option is to warrant lifetime original owner the HPFP and for subsequent owner(s) for a certain number of years/mileage. Again, all I hear is crickets.

What they will probably do is nothing and just phase this engine design out. But hey, guys like GTIDAN will continue to join in and blame the victims ......

Yes it seems my signature defines people like you well. You can't discuss the matter civilly, so you resort to ad hominem weak minded crap like your above comment to dismiss what happened to fellow club members. Wow, just wow .........

That comment was for Brian Chudzik who is a good friend of Mine......has nothing to do with ad hominem weak minded crap as you state!
You do not know me or anything about me.....

so do not respond to my posts.....

thebigarniedog · Apr 21, 2012

tomo366 said:
That comment was for Brian Chudzik who is a good friend of Mine......has nothing to do with ad hominem weak minded crap as you state!
You do not know me or anything about me..... so do not respond to my posts.....

Then PM him!!!! You post it, I will respond to it. If you do not like it, sorry

.

tomo366 · Apr 21, 2012

LOL....Signature may describe onesself

on a more serious note.....I owned an 06, sold it before I knew about the cam issues, did know about the DSG issues.....I love my 10 JSW and worry about the problem all the time! I use an additive which may or may not save me....I definately do not have misfueling issues.....anyway I have a good dealer here and I feel confident that if i have a problem they will correct it!
I had an 02 Jetta with Coolant Migration and they fixed it.....
If a comparable car from a different manufacturer comes out I will go for it, until then I will drive the "TICKING TIME BOMB"

sgoldste01 · Apr 21, 2012

tomo366 said:
.....I love my 10 JSW and worry about the problem all the time! I use an additive which may or may not save me....I definately do not have misfueling issues.....

+1. I'm hyper-vigilant regarding adding 1 qt biodiesel + 4 oz Power Service with each fuel-up. 28k miles so far with no issues (knocking on wood even as I'm typing this).

wanabe · Apr 21, 2012

sgoldste01 said:
+1. I'm hyper-vigilant regarding adding 1 qt biodiesel + 4 oz Power Service with each fuel-up. 28k miles so far with no issues (knocking on wood even as I'm typing this).

Don't forget to throw some salt over your shoulder at each fuel-up!

tico27464 · Apr 21, 2012

thebigarniedog said:
That is the unfortunate reality. What VW will realize is that this type of PR will kill their brand, similar to what happened to the Audi 5000 wherein the same arguments were advanced by Audi to explain the sudden acceleration. It is called "Blame the customer first". <snip>

Just for a little fun (originally in response to Toyota's issues a couple years back, but encompasses many/perhaps all automakers):
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-automotive-defects

Cheers,
~T

darrelld · Apr 21, 2012

wanabe said:
Don't forget to throw some salt over your shoulder at each fuel-up!

I rub my lucky rabbits foot.

Niner · Apr 21, 2012

The part that fails and contaminates everything in the fuel system always has Bosch's name on it. Not much other blame to go around, not VW's fault, Bosch sells the same fail prone pump to a zillion different badges, with equally predictable results. It has, in my opinion, a "suitability of use in North American market" problem, although all countries diesel fuel are subject to making this pump fail. Aluminum bore for the work this pump has to perform, and the number of cycles in the parts life, is defective design materials, in my opinion.

sudseh · Apr 21, 2012

So much hate and drama.

Penned by a million monkeys.

pknopp · Apr 21, 2012

chudzikb said:
The difference between a cam and a HPFP failure is night and day. Cam can be done reasonably if you do your own work in conjunction with a timing belt change. 8K is not reasonable! As others have said, its not the failure of the part (parts fail, I get that) that is the problem, it is the collateral damage from the failure that IS the problem. Headed out today to get another 06, wife liked mine, demanded I get her one? How does that happen? (mental note do not let wife drive car)

Just to note, it would be far, far less if you did the work yourself.

Also to note, most who own a CR love them.

bhtooefr · Apr 21, 2012

It'd still be in the $5k+ range to do the work yourself, and do it right.

Really, the CP4 is a crap cost-cut design, and it barely works on European fuel (for that matter, Audi's managed to blow a CP4 on Shell Diesel LM24, in race conditions, and that stuff is below 336 um wear scar), and it doesn't work on US fuel.

bluey · Apr 22, 2012

Reading the BMW submission to NHTSA, the Bosch CP3 used by BMW fails just as often as the CP4 used by VAG. And reading that BMW is unable to provide failure mode and effects analysis information which has to be provided by Bosch, surely it is likely that Bosch will be asked by NHTSA to ante up too.

bluey · Apr 22, 2012

Niner said:
I wonder what they are doing differently, manufacturing wise, in Czech Republic?

Having recently bought a Czech car (Skoda), I had read that Czechs wake up every day wanting to be better than Germans!
Here is the label from the HPFP of the CFHC engine, car built Nov 2011. (Click photo for full size image.)

Hoping that this HPFP will last.....

chudzikb · Apr 22, 2012

pknopp said:
Just to note, it would be far, far less if you did the work yourself.

Also to note, most who own a CR love them.

I am thinking that would not be fun work! Especially, if you need your car for work the next day. It is not in the department of "preventative" work. A cam you can see coming and plan for it, this, not so much...

I am sure you guys love your CR's I would too, but, I like to sleep at night, and not worry about stuff that I can prevent. This is one of those things that I can prevent.

sgoldste01 · Apr 22, 2012

Agreed. I will do my own fluid changes, filter changes, brake work, tire rotations, and so on. But I would never dare perform a process as vast as replacing the entire fuel system on my car.

IFRCFI · Apr 22, 2012

thebigarniedog said:
.

What they will probably do is nothing and just phase this engine design out. .........

A year from now, the conversation around this will be very different as more warranties expire. VWs willingness to cover will gradually decrease to denial.

Search on balance shaft, DMF, cam wear, 01M....and see how they were handled.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Trooper81 · Apr 22, 2012

IFRCFI said:
A year from now, the conversation around this will be very different as more warranties expire. VWs willingness to cover will gradually decrease to denial.

Search on balance shaft, DMF, cam wear, 01M....and see how they were handled.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ppl on here having been saying this for years now, it's never happened. There are failures, but the mass failures everone keeps predicting arn't happening.

dweisel · Apr 22, 2012

Trooper81 said:
Ppl on here having been saying this for years now, it's never happened. There are failures, but the mass failures everone keeps predicting arn't happening.

I don't think there will ever be mass failures. Just one here, one there, another one and another one. I have always felt its not a problem of mass failures,but a higher than normal failure rate that comes with a huge possible repair bill. Its the future owners in the used car market that may be hit the hardest.

wanabe · Apr 22, 2012

It's not just the money

dweisel said:
I don't think there will ever be mass failures. Just one here, one there, another one and another one. I have always felt its not a problem of mass failures,but a higher than normal failure rate that comes with a huge possible repair bill. Its the future owners in the used car market that may be hit the hardest.

I've read almost every word on these fora about the HPFP and if any credible person predicted mass failrures, I missed it. (I have several people on my ignore list but they are mainly those that say there is no problem here.)
But it's more than the cost of the repair. The safety aspect has been discussed also but the one that really bothers me is the time required to fix the problem. I've been making trips of thousands of miles for 50 years and never had a trip interruption of more than a few hours. I have had to get work done several times when I got to my destination but I at least was able to get there. This problem is totally unpredictable and unpreventable and can take three weeks to fix. I have stopped taking my JSW on long trips. First time ever for a car less than 10 years old.

Second Turbo · Apr 22, 2012

finger pointing

Niner: > ... The part that fails and contaminates everything in the fuel system always has Bosch's name on it. Not much other blame to go around, not VW's fault, Bosch sells the same fail prone pump to a zillion different badges, with equally predictable results. ...

We don't actually know that ("Bosch's Fault"). Bosch may have one one or more of:

designed this Timed Delayed Imploder to a spec given by an auto maker;
provided only assurance of a certain failure rate (likely the Euro rate);
advised the auto makers to add a filter to contain collateral damage;
pre-warned the auto makers not to sell vehicles using it into regions with less than a certain wear scar; or,
obtained an written indemnity releasing them from consequential damages as part of the OEM contract.

I think it possible that NHTSA will make inquiries of Bosch. Any responses could be interesting.

pknopp · Apr 22, 2012

chudzikb said:
I am thinking that would not be fun work! Especially, if you need your car for work the next day. It is not in the department of "preventative" work. A cam you can see coming and plan for it, this, not so much...

Of course not but neither is a cam job. My point was that you couldn't pass off the cam problems by noting it didn't cost as much if you do it yourself.

I am sure you guys love your CR's I would too, but, I like to sleep at night, and not worry about stuff that I can prevent. This is one of those things that I can prevent.

But yet you'll run out and buy another car with a known high failure rate.

pknopp · Apr 22, 2012

wanabe said:
I've read almost every word on these fora about the HPFP and if any credible person predicted mass failrures, I missed it.

I've been here less than 6 months and have read it over and over.

wanabe · Apr 22, 2012

The buck stops with VW

Second Turbo said:
Niner: > ... The part that fails and contaminates everything in the fuel system always has Bosch's name on it. Not much other blame to go around, not VW's fault, Bosch sells the same fail prone pump to a zillion different badges, with equally predictable results. ...

We don't actually know that ("Bosch's Fault"). Bosch may have one one or more of:

designed this Timed Delayed Imploder to a spec given by an auto maker;

provided only assurance of a certain failure rate (likely the Euro rate);

advised the auto makers to add a filter to contain collateral damage;

pre-warned the auto makers not to sell vehicles using it into regions with less than a certain wear scar; or,

obtained an written indemnity releasing them from consequential damages as part of the OEM contract.

I think it possible that NHTSA will make inquiries of Bosch. Any responses could be interesting.

The buck stops with VW. They designed, tested and built the car. All parts whether built internally or externally have to be suitable for their intended use. And in my experience that includes changes made to a part at any point in the process.

Niner · Apr 22, 2012

bhtooefr said:
It'd still be in the $5k+ range to do the work yourself, and do it right.
Really, the CP4 is a crap cost-cut design, and it barely works on European fuel (for that matter, Audi's managed to blow a CP4 on Shell Diesel LM24, in race conditions, and that stuff is below 336 um wear scar), and it doesn't work on US fuel.

Linkie for the trashed CP4 in LeMans?

I've always felt that high rpm's and driving these CR's like you stole them is a bad idea, at any time. This pump is already engineered within it's life limits at normal, nice, way below redline driving rpms.

Niner · Apr 22, 2012

bluey said:
Having recently bought a Czech car (Skoda), I had read that Czechs wake up every day wanting to be better than Germans!
Here is the label from the HPFP of the CFHC engine, car built Nov 2011. (Click photo for full size image.)

Hoping that this HPFP will last.....

Take a trip down to a big city Vw dealership and talk to a few technicians in back in the service bays and ask them if they've done a HPFP replacement yet, and if so, how many have they done.

Let us know the answer... doesn't seem to change with the tech I speak to, he always says "a few" yet I regularly seem to come by when one is in the shop or on the rack when I need some parts... go figure.

Note: I am going into this CR ownership thing with my 2012 passat with my eyes wide open. It is supposed to be a gen 2 CR diesel TDI for the 2.0 version, with AdBlue fluid, and less expensive solenoid injector technology, but I note VW has been making Adblue versions for the Euro market for years already.

chudzikb · Apr 22, 2012

pknopp said:
Of course not but neither is a cam job. My point was that you couldn't pass off the cam problems by noting it didn't cost as much if you do it yourself.

Correct oil, minimizies the problem to a level I am comfortable with as of now. When it happens to me, I might be singing a different tune.

But yet you'll run out and buy another car with a known high failure rate.

Yep, sure did! As, I'll take the cam issues over the hpfp issues any day. I am not alone. I have skills and can and will do it myself. Will I be annoyed, yep, but, I will get over it. Not so sure I would get over the fuel system imploding. You made your bed, and I would be rationalizing if I were you as well. And I certainly hope VW stands behind you if it ever comes to pass for you. However, their record on this issue is less than stellar.

wanabe · Apr 22, 2012

Another percentage number

In the HPFP Failures-State by State List as of today there are 149 HPFP failures listed of which 9 had the replacement pump fail also. That is a 6% failure rate for the replacement pumps. Regardless of the accuracy of this or any other percentage number, it reminds me of a design deficiency on my 1999 Subaru Forester. The rear wheel bearings on the passenger-side/down-hill side (same problem in Australia) had a lot of failures at relatively low mileage. Worse yet, an even larger percentage failed that were replaced in the field including mine. They used ball bearings which were just not quite robust enough for the job. Subaru finally started replacing them with wheel bearings that had roller bearings in them. That did the trick for me and apparently everyone else who had failures under warranty. But they never did a recall on them.
For what it's worth. my driver's-side bearing still hasn't failed in 120K miles!

pknopp · Apr 22, 2012

chudzikb said:
Yep, sure did! As, I'll take the cam issues over the hpfp issues any day. I am not alone.

But you are in the minority. There are far more buying new CR's than used 2006 TDI's.

The 2006 is actually a good example of how much of the discussion is pure hyperbole. The cars have a known problem but yet I see them selling with around 100,000 miles for $12-13k.

I don't know what they sold for new but 6 years and 100,000 still brings around 60% of the cost new. Pretty good. Automatic models from previous years are still selling for pretty impressive dollars.

I wasn't around here then but I see references to posts made a few years ago that said the same thing that people are saying now. That the cars would be failing all over the place and the re-sale would collapse.

It is amazing at how much VW seems to miss in their long term development testing but there is no indications that the current cars will be any different than the previous cars.

Second Turbo · Apr 22, 2012

Failure rate per ...

dweisel: > I don't think there will ever be mass failures.

Agreed. But the apparent rate is high enough to be painful. We're nearing 255K miles on our ALH (now under remediation). How many CRs will make it that far on their original Botch?

> I have always felt its not a problem of mass failures, but a higher than normal failure rate that comes with a huge possible repair bill.

It's not just the failure (hey, fuel pumps fail, even expensive ones).

It's the collateral damage,
AND
it's the fact that the failure can neither be prevented nor predicted.

The timing belt has similar collateral damage potential, but that is easily managed (and VW has made investments in improving it - My sister dumped her TDI because the TB lasted only 40K then. They are now 150K, and aren't terribly hard to inspect).

> It's the future owners in the used car market that may be hit the hardest.

... as well as owners who run 'em into the ground, like I do.
Resale values may tank, which affects current owners.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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