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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old August 5th, 2007, 19:02   #31
DuluthRooster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyTDI
I don't get it...

If WVO messed up your first turbo, then what messed up your second turbo? You said that after the first turbo was replaced you stopped using WVO and went back to stock. Which means your second turbo was on diesel or B100 right? Then how did it get chewed up in 1000 miles? What damaged the blades on the new turbo so bad and so quick that needed replacing again?
It couldn't be WVO as you weren't using it on this second turbo right?

Can you explain?
I don't know WVO messed up my first turbo, but judging by the pictures it is a likely suspect even though turbos have gone out at 80,000 miles.

You are correct. I used no WVO with the first VNT-17. It was destroyed by a foreign object. There was probably a shard from the stock turbo somewhere in the intercooler lines and I didn't get it out. It got sucked up on the way to Missouri and fortunately for me shaved the impeller very precisely. All the damage was on the compressor side, exhaust and shaft was fine.

Charlie (Kerma) also said that crankcase oil being blown into the intercooler by the tremendous blowby could have damaged the new turbo (lost 2 quarts going to Missouri). His analogy was rain hitting you on a motorcycle. It hurts. Make it faster and it can cut. Interesting theory but Franko6 and I think a harder object than oil got in there and bounced around especially when you look at the little pits on the turbo intake.

Chalk that up to a big $$$$ mistake for not cleaning my intercooler lines. Charlie helped as best as he could but it still hurt. We didn't make that mistake on the second VNT-17. You could eat out of that intercooler now .

I made some mistakes with my WVO system like oil change intervals. Could I correct those and go back to WVO? Sure. Maybe I will be successful, maybe not. I risked it before but dont want to again. I am willing to make biodiesel. That is also risky but not as much as WVO. It is an experimental fuel and I experimented. I saved thousands and now gave back those thousands. Hey....it was a learning experience and was kinda fun. I had a lot of interesting chats about what I was doing. Frank06 has made me whole again and time to move on.

I am going to really enjoy having compression and Charlie's Aligator tune. Compression is a good thing.
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Old August 5th, 2007, 19:17   #32
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Kudos to you sir for your honest reporting. It truly takes a big man to admit (and photographically document!) his mistakes. It benefits everyone to hear all sides; so thank you sincerely: you've done a service to the diesel community. I hope at least that takes the edge off of your pain.

BTW: I had Charlie tune my car for PP764's and an Aligator-I fuel economy tune. It is fantastic. I am getting my best mileage ever.

Good luck in all your future endeavors. Please PM me if you want advice in your biodiesel reaction schemes--I'm a chemist and I will help steer you in the right direction and away from dangerous pitfalls if I can
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Old August 5th, 2007, 19:22   #33
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Indeed. Compression is a good thing. I appreciate your detailed description of what happened and your lack of WVO bashing. I'm not sure I'd be able to be so even-handed if I was out the $$ that you are in this experience.

Expect lots of WVO fans questioning your approach, operating procedures, and even the doubt that WVO was the cause of your engine's problems. As a counterpoint, I'm satisfied to report that I saw PeterV today and between us we have nearly 400K on our TDIs, both with original turbos, valves, pistons, etc. Mine needed a cam at 150K, not unusual in an '02. And FWIW, consuming 1 liter of oil between changes isn't normal for a TDI, or at least it's on the high end of normal.

I'm glad your car's up and running well again, and particulary happy that you were fortunate to get a good engine. Enjoy the power.

As I age I'm (slowly) learning that trying things that don't work brings no shame. It's worse not to try. So learn from the experience and move on. Your car has a new lease on life. Long may it run.
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Last edited by IndigoBlueWagon; August 6th, 2007 at 05:28.
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Old August 5th, 2007, 19:42   #34
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DR,

Sorry to hear of your mechanical failure. Thanks for posting the details for the rest of use to learn from. I was curious, what was your dewatering procedure, and did you test for water such as a pan test?
Were there signs of polymerization in the crankcase?
I'd be curious about the injectors too. Iff you get the time. I know right now you're very depressed.

If it was polymerization, veggie-based crankcase oil might have prevented it.
Such as Panolin BioMot. I just did my first oil change with BioMot, which just became avialable in the US. so I have veggie oil in the crankcase now too. [Read the thread on PAnolin Chasee started for sources.]

"Andy was absolutely cognizant about his WVO temps before switching to that tank."
It's more important to know the temp. of the fuel returned to tank from the i.p.
Hot VO into a cold i.p. results in warm VO at best. Several experts at infopop recommend monitoring at the
i.p. return to tank, and only switching to VO once that is 150*F+.

Last edited by BioDiesel; August 6th, 2007 at 03:57.
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Old August 5th, 2007, 20:18   #35
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Yea, the nut came off my VNT-15's wheel which ultimately did it in.

Probably the bearings were failing and there was some vibration going on
that loosened my nut.

But the problem was, just like DR's problem with his FOD (foreign object
damage) the intake pipe design sucks! Literally.

Any FOD that gets down there to the compressor inlet that can't pass
through the blades is usually ejected from the compressor inlet when it is
slapped by the blades. But because of the crappy German design, the
ejected object has nowhere to go but to tumble back down the intake
pipe to be reintroduced to wheel a second time... and so on... and so
on... until the wheel disintegrates.

My solution is to redesign the intake pipe so that there is a "well" under
the compressor inlet in the pipe. Basically the pipe will proceed past the
inlet as far as practical and the inlet will "Tee" into the side of the intake
pipe rather than be at the bottom of a 90* elbow.

If done correctly, much of the CCV oil will drip and flow down into the
"well" area rather than be forced into to the compressor inlet because it is
the lowest point of the German design.

If a hose barb is added to the low point of the well, oil that is collected
there can be allowed to drain out before it fills the well to the brim of the
compressor inlet.

Follow my logic? Any FOD that falls down the inlet pipe will either fall
safely into the well area or it will be flung into the well if it does make it to
the spinning wheel where hopefully it won't bounce out for a second trip
into the wheel.

I mailed BLUBYU, the maker of the OMI pipes to see if he is interested in
doing the assembly and sales on my much larger mandrel bent intake
pipes. So far I have not heard back from him. I don't want to get bogged
down doing all of the assembly and all of the welding and all of the sales
myself. I can middleman CNC pipe sections for probably less $$$ than most
can get them made directly.

So far I have been all talk and no pipes for sale... so add this one to the set...
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Old August 6th, 2007, 02:47   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon
And FWIW, consuming 1 liter of oil between changes isn't normal for a TDI, or at least it's on the high end of normal.
Indigo, you are dead wrong on that. In fact, the PD engine is expected to burn upwards of 2 liters between changes as per VWOA bulletin to dealers, not to mention multiple threads here.
Where do you get your information these days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon
Expect lots of WVO fans questioning your approach, operating procedures, and even the doubt that WVO was the cause of your engine's problems...
But of course. Successful use of WVO in a modern TDI hinges on very strict protocol and practices. Stray from them and problems abound. Not sure if anyone will doubt that WVO played a part, but that is secondary to protocol and practices. So Indigo, what exactly is your point here?

Last edited by Chasee; August 6th, 2007 at 02:52.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 05:40   #37
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Sorry about the oil consumption: Where I got my information was my own experience and talking to others. I only have 10K on my PD but haven't seen any oil consumption. And I talk to many PD customers about oil and no one has mentioned this kind of consumption, much less 2 liters in 10K. I have to confess I don't spend a lot of time on the PD or lubricants forums, so I was unaware of the service bulletin.

Regarding the second quote, my point is that folks who have gone to the expense and effort of installing a WVO system are going to defend it by pointing fingers at DR for not doing it properly, just as you have here. As mentioned above, DR had one of the cleanest installs I've ever seen and when talking to him at length about his "protocol and practices" he was careful bordering on obsessive. And this still happened.

I have yet to personally talk with anyone who runs WVO who has not had a major component fail in 50K or so. Yes, there are people who post here who claim 100K trouble-free miles, but I tend to be biased more towards my face-to-face experience than what someone writes on a forum. I've seen lots of injectors, valves, and pistons that look like DRs, many that look worse.

My point? (flame suit on here). Running WVO in a TDI is a time bomb. Sooner or later something will blow up.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 05:41   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioDiesel
DR,


If it was polymerization, veggie-based crankcase oil might have prevented it.
Can you explain the chemistry of how veggie-based crankcase oil would have made a difference?

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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:06   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon

Regarding the second quote, my point is that folks who have gone to the expense and effort of installing a WVO system are going to defend it by pointing fingers at DR for not doing it properly, just as you have here. As mentioned above, DR had one of the cleanest installs I've ever seen and when talking to him at length about his "protocol and practices" he was careful bordering on obsessive. And this still happened.

I have yet to personally talk with anyone who runs WVO who has not had a major component fail in 50K or so. Yes, there are people who post here who claim 100K trouble-free miles, but I tend to be biased more towards my face-to-face experience than what someone writes on a forum. I've seen lots of injectors, valves, and pistons that look like DRs, many that look worse.

My point? (flame suit on here). Running WVO in a TDI is a time bomb. Sooner or later something will blow up.
Well, you have been talking to me. 70K+ without a major or even minor component failure. I believe you're in MA, right? I'm happy to let you check out my car and filtering setup if you want. Seriously.

Not so obsessive that he did any oil analysis in 50K miles, or even changed the oil a bit more frequently than 10K. Sorry, but that's not even close to obsessive in my book. I don't mean to insult him, but that alone is tantamount to negligence.

You do know that the statement about a timebomb applies to stock vehicles running on D2 as well, right? The old "it'll happen someday!" may sound ominous to some, but most of us realize it is actualy a non sequitur, just as much as if I said "it'll last forever!".

I've been trading emails with him. I am worried that his system did not truly purge, resulting in contamination of the small diesel tank. I have yet to confirm this. We all know that starting a cold modern TDI on even small percentages of WVO can be very bad.

I'm also very worried about how he processed his WVO. So far, it seems he only filtered to 10 microns (not even absolute), and never did any heating/settling of the WVO at all. He did allow to settle for 2 weeks after filtering, but I must say that this is not the way to create modern TDI ready WVO, IMHO.

So I'm not defending anything. I am using process of elimination (POE) to render down to the probable causes. Again, as we all know, using WVO in a modern TDI necessitates strict adherence to oil processing needs and vehicle operation. I fully acknowledge that it takes a rare person to really rise to the challenge. Just because someone has a clean&tidy engine compartment does not mean their fuel and/or operating practices are up to snuff.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:10   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkiTdi
Can you explain the chemistry of how veggie-based crankcase oil would have made a difference?

OkiTDI
I'm no chemist. But the theory is that a plant-based engine oil will not polymerize when diluted with biodiesel or WVO as it is designed for this. Plantomot and Biomot are both oils that are used all over EU specifically for this.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:24   #41
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Probably Rapeseed oil. Rapeseed is known for high quality industrial lubricants, which ones I could not tell you but that is one of it's original uses.

I agree, SVO/WVO is a time bomb on these motors sooner or later...

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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:32   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire
Probably Rapeseed oil. Rapeseed is known for high quality industrial lubricants, which ones I could not tell you but that is one of it's original uses.

I agree, SVO/WVO is a time bomb on these motors sooner or later...

DB
I can only quote myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasee
You do know that the statement about a timebomb applies to stock vehicles running on D2 as well, right? The old "it'll happen someday!" may sound ominous to some, but most of us realize it is actualy a non sequitur, just as much as if I said "it'll last forever!".
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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:38   #43
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Chasee, I'd love to see your setup. And regarding oil change intervals, filtration, and purging, I'm always willing to listen and learn. Bring it up to H05G on the 18th if you can. There will be a lot of interest.

As far as the time bomb comment goes, it's not a non sequitur. All the components in our cars have an expected life span. When MAFs fail every six months we're annoyed. When a turbo goes over 200K we're pleased. DR's components (rear main seal, turbo, valves, cylinder walls) all had a far shorter than expected life span. That's why I called it a time bomb. When I hear WVO drivers say they expect to replace an IP annually, that means something's wrong. And I'm more than willing to agree that many people probably don't use correct practices in running WVO.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:41   #44
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What's H05G?

Yea, if I had to replace an IP annually, I'd be pissed too.

The time bomb thing is totally content-free. You're saying it based on circumstantial evidence. I could say, based on my circumstantial evidence, that it will last forever, but I don't.

Now, to be more accurate, using WVO may or may not result in decreased lifespan of major or minor engine components. It also may or may not increase the lifespan of major or minor engine components due to increased lubricity. That basically adds up to "we don't know because nobody has done any true scientific life-cycle analysis of this practice". So it is only fair to steer clear of inflammatory statements like "its a time bomb".

Last edited by Chasee; August 6th, 2007 at 06:47.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 06:55   #45
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This is HO5G

Its a big get-together in Southern New Hampshire on August 18th. You should come!
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