TDI sportwagen HPFP failure - Rust and metal in the fuel pump.

dweisel · Feb 24, 2010

ferland25, pm me your email address and I'll send you a few pics of what you can look for in the text book HPFP failure. I also have one of the fuel sample from our HPFP failure with "sand" metal particles.

Replacing just the HPFP will be wasted time and money. VW Tech should tell the dealership to replace the entire fuel system.
Don't go with anything less. It doesn't work.

Dweisel

tdiatlast · Feb 24, 2010

VWPilot said:
How many more pumps have to fail before VW admits that there is a problem? Bosch and VW were aware of the poor lubricity characteristic of US diesel fuel since 2003 and yet customers are still getting "sand in the fuel" BS response from VW. Shame on you VW!!! Had I known of this issue before I bough my 2010 JSW, I would have gone with a Mazda 3 instead. Using the chart from Bosch's 2003 presentation we can quickly calculate the doomsday assuming the worst case lubricity scenario. Let's assume that ferland25 's average speed was 50 MPH and given that the failure occured at 14K miles we have 14,000/50 = 280hrs. Crossreferencing the chart we have the wear of 15-16μm, which puts ferland25 in imminent failure category according to Bosch! What's interesting is that the wear is not only limited to the HPFP, but other common rail components are affected as well. If those weren't replaced, then it's only the matter of time until they fail. I really hope that VW wakes up and does something about it before they start driving people away from their showrooms and diesel technology in general.

Link to the presentation.

Why doesn't every TDI owner reading this take a copy of this report to their dealer's Service Director? I'll be taking it to mine, for sure.

dweisel · Feb 24, 2010

tdiatlast said:
Why doesn't every TDI owner reading this take a copy of this report to their dealer's Service Director? I'll be taking it to mine, for sure.

And they are going to do what with this info?

Dweisel

ferland25 · Feb 24, 2010

I need to do a survey of those who have had their fuel system replaced: What is the status now....do you still have the same car, has is failed again? How confident are you in driving your car for the next ~50K miles now that the fuel system was replaced. I'd really like to keep my car, but am having mixed feelings.

house-1221 · Feb 24, 2010

Just an update -

My fuel came back "OK". I was told VOA is going to cover it under warranty. The parts have been ordered and hopefully I'll get my car back in a week or so.

I opened a file with VOA customer service regarding returning the loaner car or compensating me for having to drive 18 hours round trip to pick the car.

We'll see how this turns out.

dweisel · Feb 24, 2010

house-1221 said:
My fuel came back "OK". I was told VOA is going to cover it under warranty. The parts have been ordered and hopefully I'll get my car back in a week or so.

I opened a file with VOA customer service regarding returning the loaner car or compensating me for having to drive 18 hours round trip to pick the car.

We'll see how this turns out.

That's great news house-1221. Maybe Vw has finally started to see there is a problem and its their responsibility to repair it under warranty. And maybe this Toyota thing has VW looking at their problems a little closer.

Dweisel

IndigoBlueWagon · Feb 24, 2010

ferland25 said:
I need to do a survey of those who have had their fuel system replaced: What is the status now....do you still have the same car, has is failed again? How confident are you in driving your car for the next ~50K miles now that the fuel system was replaced. I'd really like to keep my car, but am having mixed feelings.

This is an excellent idea. And I know I keep asking this, but as part of the survey ask if people are using a lubricity additive. I think it would be interesting if we can identify a correlation between fuel quality and pump failures.

TDInownow · Feb 24, 2010

What exactly does VWoA test for to determine that the fuel is "okay" or not? What if you had a tank with additives (like PS) in it? Does that skew the results enough to throw a flag?

Also, with a bad fuel argument, how does that go down between the fuel retailer and the owner and the dealer? If the owner believes they're putting good fuel in (and it's coming from a pump that's listed as ULSD) how can VWoA claim any type of negligence that would result in voiding a warranty claim?

A car (and it's components) needs to be robust enough that an owner should not be expected to take a fuel sample every time they fill up the car. I could see if you were using LSD, home heating oil, etc...but pump ULSD is a tough case to sell.

Marlyece · Feb 24, 2010

Is anyone/everyone contacting VWoA about these issues when they experience a failed HPFP? I wonder if the media will get clued into this. I think people need to unite on this issue. These numbers are going to keep increasing...

dzcad90 · Feb 24, 2010

Marlyece said:
These numbers are going to keep increasing...

You are correct. If one more person experiences a failure, the number will increase.

dweisel · Feb 24, 2010

dzcad90 said:
You are correct. If one more person experiences a failure, the number will increase.

And it can only get worse from there.

Dweisel

dzcad90 · Feb 24, 2010

dweisel said:
And it can only get worse from there.

Dweisel

You too are correct. If there's 20 failures, another happens, then there's 21. If another should happen, that would make 22.

22 is worse than 21.

We aren't speaking in thousands, or even hundreds of failures, and we can't take back any failures that have already happend. So "it can only get worse from there" is a correct statement.

mysql · Feb 24, 2010

At the current rate, the failure rate will reach close to infinity.

dweisel · Feb 24, 2010

dzcad90 said:
You too are correct. If there's 20 failures, another happens, then there's 21. If another should happen, that would make 22.

22 is worse than 21.

We aren't speaking in thousands, or even hundreds of failures, and we can't take back any failures that have already happend. So "it can only get worse from there" is a correct statement.

Geez,we finally agree on something. lol.

Rather Be Biking · Feb 24, 2010

Marlyece said:
Is anyone/everyone contacting VWoA about these issues when they experience a failed HPFP? I wonder if the media will get clued into this. I think people need to unite on this issue. These numbers are going to keep increasing...

The media is clued in.

tdiatlast · Feb 25, 2010

dweisel said:
And they are going to do what with this info?

Dweisel

Wouldn't making the dealership network aware that this information is in the hands of vocal consumers/enthusiasts help our cause?

If our liaison with VWoA (our dealerships) continues to think we're making this stuff up, we'll get nowhere. If we show them documentation, from an authoritative source, that there is a known deficiency in USA diesel, they might not be able to look any of us in the face and say, "You don't need to use any lubricity additive."

dweisel · Feb 25, 2010

tdiatlast said:
Wouldn't making the dealership network aware that this information is in the hands of vocal consumers/enthusiasts help our cause?

If our liaison with VWoA (our dealerships) continues to think we're making this stuff up, we'll get nowhere. If we show them documentation, from an authoritative source, that there is a known deficiency in USA diesel, they might not be able to look any of us in the face and say, "You don't need to use any lubricity additive."

Okay, go to 3 dealerships in your area and give them the info. I'll bet it will go in one ear and right out the other. They don't care what the fuel specs are. They just want to sell cars.

Dweisel

gpshumway · Feb 25, 2010

TDInownow said:
What exactly does VWoA test for to determine that the fuel is "okay" or not? What if you had a tank with additives (like PS) in it? Does that skew the results enough to throw a flag?

So far I don't think VW has shared what they're doing, if anything. IIRC, one dealer set a container of fuel out to see if water separated out and that was the extent of the "testing".

TDInownow said:
Also, with a bad fuel argument, how does that go down between the fuel retailer and the owner and the dealer? If the owner believes they're putting good fuel in (and it's coming from a pump that's listed as ULSD) how can VWoA claim any type of negligence that would result in voiding a warranty claim?

I'm certainly not defending them, but I believe VW's position is the fuel supplier should pay for the repairs, and if they wont your auto insurance should.

TDInownow said:
A car (and it's components) needs to be robust enough that an owner should not be expected to take a fuel sample every time they fill up the car. I could see if you were using LSD, home heating oil, etc...but pump ULSD is a tough case to sell.

Agreed. I suspect the low quality of US fuel is one reason other manufacturers have scrapped their plans to bring small diesels to the US.

dweisel · Feb 25, 2010

gpshumway said:
Agreed. I suspect the low quality of US fuel is one reason other manufacturers have scrapped their plans to bring small diesels to the US.

I would say fuel quality has nothing to do with 6 manufactures scraping plans to introduce diesels to their US model line. Meeting emissions would be number one and demand would be number two. But thats just my opinion.

Dweisel

gpshumway · Feb 25, 2010

dweisel said:
I would say fuel quality has nothing to do with 6 manufactures scraping plans to introduce diesels to their US model line. Meeting emissions would be number one and demand would be number two. But thats just my opinion.

Dweisel

Why would you suspect fuel quality has nothing to do with it? Durability testing is extremely expensive and it would be entirely reasonable for a manufacturer to feel the need to re-do that testing in light of the poor lubricity of US fuel. Emissions testing is another expensive development cost, but all such costs must be weighed against the likely sales volume.

Could it be that VW decided to shortcut their durability testing by interpolating data taken using European fuel, thus contributing to the HPFP problem?

I suspect this is exactly what happened with the fuel dilution of engine oil problems with VW/Audi (and BMW) gasoline direct injected engines in the US. European cars have a lean-burn mode which reduces the fuel dilution and extend the oil's life. In the US, our strict emissions doesn't allow for lean-burn mode. Couple stoichiometric mixtures with high sulfur fuel and the oil lasts maybe half of the 10,000 mile recommended interval.

Of course the manufacturers would never admit such shortcuts publicly.

Marlyece · Feb 25, 2010

passing the buck

holding the fuel supplier accountable is going to be near impossible if you have diesel from multiple suppliers in your tank and even then it's going to be tricky to PROVE that the "contaminated" fuel came from their station alone. also what are the specs for "contaminated" since cetane requirements are so low in the U.S. ? lubricity doesn't even seem to be a factor they consider in terms of fuel quality. why aren't cetane and lubricity #s available at the stations? how much water is too much?

i want to know the criteria VW uses when assessing fuel quality/contamination.

2009TDINEWBIE · Feb 25, 2010

I purchased a 2009 Jetti TDI about a year ago. I am new to diesel and was initially impressed with the gas mileage and torque. However, after about 18K miles my entire fuel system had to be replaced due to contamination. Dealer said a fuel sensor failed causing the contamination and replaced everything from the fuel tank on up. Recently at about 40K I experiened a second contamination issue require the entire sytem to be replaced again. This time diagnosis was fuel pump failure. I am completely frustrated with this vehicle and no longer feel it is safe for me or my teenage daughter to drive. The second failure happened as I was driving home from work. Engine just shut down on me with virtually no notice on the freeway. Pretty scary trying to work your way to the side of the road with no power and cars blowing by at 75mp+.

I do believe this is a significant safety issue!

mysql · Feb 25, 2010

based on the info here:

http://www.truckinginfo.com/maintenance/news-detail.asp?news_id=69386&news_category_id=81

I wonder if it's worthwhile to just get a 275 gallon tank for my home and pump my own B5 diesel from it. I figure I can get away with 160 gallons and use that up within 6 months (before I have to worry about it getting too old). Then I won't have to worry about random fuel stations having rusted fuel going into my car.

mysql · Feb 25, 2010

The thing is about the link above.... if rust is in the tanks, we should be seeing people with issues in the earlier TDI's too, right? Or does the 09/10's have new features that make this issue more prevalent?

jbright · Feb 25, 2010

2009TDINEWBIE said:
I purchased a 2009 Jetti TDI about a year ago. I am new to diesel and was initially impressed with the gas mileage and torque. However, after about 18K miles my entire fuel system had to be replaced due to contamination. Dealer said a fuel sensor failed causing the contamination and replaced everything from the fuel tank on up. Recently at about 40K I experiened a second contamination issue require the entire sytem to be replaced again. This time diagnosis was fuel pump failure. I am completely frustrated with this vehicle and no longer feel it is safe for me or my teenage daughter to drive. The second failure happened as I was driving home from work. Engine just shut down on me with virtually no notice on the freeway. Pretty scary trying to work your way to the side of the road with no power and cars blowing by at 75mp+.

I do believe this is a significant safety issue!

Was your first fix done under warranty? What about the second one?

mysql · Feb 25, 2010

if the failures are really coming from rust in the diesel we pump, my bet is that vw starts to deny claims since they would be correct in saying contaminated fuel caused the problem.

Midnight Rider · Feb 25, 2010

2009TDINEWBIE said:
I purchased a 2009 Jetti TDI about a year ago. I am new to diesel and was initially impressed with the gas mileage and torque. However, after about 18K miles my entire fuel system had to be replaced due to contamination. Dealer said a fuel sensor failed causing the contamination and replaced everything from the fuel tank on up. Recently at about 40K I experiened a second contamination issue require the entire sytem to be replaced again. This time diagnosis was fuel pump failure. I am completely frustrated with this vehicle and no longer feel it is safe for me or my teenage daughter to drive. The second failure happened as I was driving home from work. Engine just shut down on me with virtually no notice on the freeway. Pretty scary trying to work your way to the side of the road with no power and cars blowing by at 75mp+.

I do believe this is a significant safety issue!

Did you report it to the NHTSA?? If you feel it is safety related report it!

uberdiesel · Feb 25, 2010

time to start using dieselclean again?

Until it was totalled, I used the silver-bottled diesel clean faithfully for nearly all 162,000 miles on my '05 Jetta Wagon.

Reading this thread gives me the urgent sense that it is time to start using a fuel additive in my '09 JSW.

So far it has 27,000 perfect miles...

maverick395 · Feb 25, 2010

ferland25 said:
I need to do a survey of those who have had their fuel system replaced: What is the status now....do you still have the same car, has is failed again? How confident are you in driving your car for the next ~50K miles now that the fuel system was replaced. I'd really like to keep my car, but am having mixed feelings.

Well, still have the car, still making payments, car still not fixed after the second failure, car still sitting at dealership with VWoA stating improper fuel after they have been proven wrong!! It's about to get interesting.

MAV

TDIzumSpass · Feb 25, 2010

look at other OEM's experience with HPFP's

I was just perusing some BMW owner sites, to get more information on HPFP failures. It looks like there are failures on both Diesel AND Gas engines using high pressure pumps. I would suggest that we seek out answers that other OEMs have come up with. One BMW owners post indicated that manufacturing tolerances were to blame for failures. The systems have to be pretty damn similar between automakers (especially if the same OEMs are supplying the pumps).

I will continue looking...

TDI sportwagen HPFP failure - Rust and metal in the fuel pump.

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