First Bio Fillup

tdi498

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2002
Location
driving
Just put 15 gallon off B-100 from the shell near libertytown MD. What difference should i see in my car?
 

SwimmerDave

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2002
Location
Decatur, GA
TDI
2014 JSW 6MT
Pros
----
-smoother operation
-cleaner burning (no smoke)
-reduced emissions
-french fry smell
-helping our farmers
-NOT helping OPEC
-burning a renewable energy source
-better lubrication than standard diesel

Cons
----
-french fry smell
-decreased gas mileage
-increased rate of oil dilution
 

BeetleGo

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 1998
Location
Cambridge, MA
TDI
5-door, 5-speed Golf GLS replaced BeetleGo.
Additional PRO's

- not just smoother, but QUIETER operation
- smug feeling, voting with your wallet this way
- unbelieveable conversation starter

Additional CON's

- potential gelling problems if you live in the north
- potential clogging of your fuel filter in first couple of tankfuls

Get all the facts at www.biodiesel.org. There's a lot to summarize here.

[ October 22, 2002, 15:54: Message edited by: BeetleGo ]
 

TDIinTX

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Location
Dallas, Texas
TDI
2002
Bio diesel actually DECREASES fuel economy?? If this is true, you people know this and continue to BUY IT? What the hell is misfiring in your brains? I guess "Bio" is an alarm word to enviro-friendly cookoo-clocks who have neglected or abandoned any knowledge or research of scientific evidence and actually believe we have ANYTHING to do with the environment. Please, people, let's wake up. Enough is enough, you're buying fuel that BURNS FASTER! Does this sound dopey to anyone but me? The very concept that we could possibly destroy the environment anyway, even if we tried, is both hilarious and sad.
 

tdi498

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2002
Location
driving
You speek of clooging fuel filter. What is this from. Should i change my filter at this tank is thru? Are most people here running strait 100%bio?

I have a upsoluted 99 jetta, and a bio pump is at the station close to were i work so i figured i would give it a try, feeling all green and such. but is the nature of my work so figure i might as well do my part.
But cost is a big factor now at a buck more a gallon. Would it be ok to just use it now and again? or blend it.
 

BongoBrains

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2000
Location
Fife Lake, Michigan
TDI
01' Golf GLS Silver/Blk
Originally posted by Jeff McDaniel:
Bio diesel actually DECREASES fuel economy?? If this is true, you people know this and continue to BUY IT? What the hell is misfiring in your brains? I guess "Bio" is an alarm word to enviro-friendly cookoo-clocks who have neglected or abandoned any knowledge or research of scientific evidence and actually believe we have ANYTHING to do with the environment. Please, people, let's wake up. Enough is enough, you're buying fuel that BURNS FASTER! Does this sound dopey to anyone but me? The very concept that we could possibly destroy the environment anyway, even if we tried, is both hilarious and sad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, where do I start?


Jeff, a mere 12 days ago, you posted a question concerning what fuel to use, and now, (as member #10980), you care to post here to make a judgement call on the sensibilities of those who choose to use BioDiesel? Perhaps you've been listening to a little too much Rush Limbaugh (sp?) or something...

Are the reasons YOU chose to drive a TDI the ONLY reasons to drive one? Were you simply trying to protect your wallet with good economy? Is it possible that OTHERS might find added benefits from burning BioDiesel regardless of a slight drop in economy? Free your mind, and perhaps learn a few things while you're at it. You haven't been around here long enough to get away with a post like that w/o getting a negative response... Mine has been gentle.
 

wiltjk

Active member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Location
Woodinville, WA
TDI
2014 Jetta SportWagen
I agree with BongoBrains. BongoBrains???? Anyway - Have you driven a gasser with leaded fuel? Why aren't you doing so now? What? You can't get leaded fuel you say. You mean when "The Man" made us switch to Unleaded (with less fuel economy)you actually made the switch???

Facts are that BioD doesn't hold as much energy as Dino Fuel. Almost as much, but not as much. Perhaps as it is used more and better formulations occur, we'll get better economy. But what is the actual drop in fuel economy? My experience has shown no measurable drop. Others will say 2-3 mpg. Some claim an increase in fuel economy.

It's worth the extra cost (initially) for some of us to support a cleaner burning renewable fuel source.

If you have a problem with this concept, just continue with Dino fuel and join back up with the merry Men of Mead.
 

MITBeta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Location
Boston's Metro South-West
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2004 Sprinter CDI Passenger (Mid/High), former: 1996 Passat TDI Variant
Enough is enough, you're buying fuel that BURNS FASTER! Does this sound dopey to anyone but me?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, you're the only one.

Does it sound dopier to use a fuel that WILL run out instead of a fuel that we can grow in our backyard?

LOTS of scientific research has been put into this.

The very concept that we could possibly destroy the environment anyway, even if we tried, is both hilarious and sad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Earth will get along just fine either way. The real question is whether or not you and I will still be on board. I hope you don't live close to sea level...
 

BongoBrains

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2000
Location
Fife Lake, Michigan
TDI
01' Golf GLS Silver/Blk
Originally posted by wiltjk:
I agree with BongoBrains. BongoBrains???? Anyway...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"BongoBrains" = A reference to the fact that I'm a Drummer/Percussionist, and work in the Traumatic Brain Injury Rehab field, (plus I don't take myself too seriously when choosing a user-name)


I am a bit 'different' though...


[ October 22, 2002, 18:23: Message edited by: BongoBrains ]
 

AutoDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2000
Location
Pacific Northwest
Originally posted by Jeff McDaniel:
Bio diesel actually DECREASES fuel economy?? If this is true, you people know this and continue to BUY IT? What the hell is misfiring in your brains? I guess "Bio" is an alarm word to enviro-friendly cookoo-clocks who have neglected or abandoned any knowledge or research of scientific evidence and actually believe we have ANYTHING to do with the environment. Please, people, let's wake up. Enough is enough, you're buying fuel that BURNS FASTER! Does this sound dopey to anyone but me? The very concept that we could possibly destroy the environment anyway, even if we tried, is both hilarious and sad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even not discussing environments concerns, where do you want your money to go?
Where do you think we get a lot of our oil from?

I'd rather spend $2.50 a gallon (which I do) for biodiesel that is home grown and supports our own farmers than a $1.50 a gallon crappy petroleum diesel which support "overseas" interest to put it politely. (Which I do as little as possible!)

Since you head is in the sand so deep concerning our effect on the environment, it doesn't even warrant discussing it with you.
You obviously know everything about the subject already.
 

Dorado

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2001
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
TDI
New Beetle TDI, 2002, Cool White
Bio diesel actually DECREASES fuel economy?? If this is true, you people know this and continue to BUY IT?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It depends on one's perspective. Take the fuel economy of the fuel itself, that is, what it takes to produce the fuel. What is the cost to our society to produce one gallon of petroleum based diesel fuel, and what is the cost to our society to produce one gallon of biodiesel? The true cost of course, is not what we see at the pump. Even if you disregard geopolitical and environmental issues, just the economics of the fuel can favor biodiesel. Do a search here for "energy balance ratio", for some nice threads on how much energy it takes to get energy out of the earth. There are no free lunches in this land. Sustainability and continuity are intrinsic to civilized life, so thinking along those lines is certainly neither new nor wacky.
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
Originally posted by Jeff McDaniel:
Bio diesel actually DECREASES fuel economy?? If this is true, you people know this and continue to BUY IT? What the hell is misfiring in your brains? I guess "Bio" is an alarm word to enviro-friendly cookoo-clocks who have neglected or abandoned any knowledge or research of scientific evidence and actually believe we have ANYTHING to do with the environment. Please, people, let's wake up. Enough is enough, you're buying fuel that BURNS FASTER! Does this sound dopey to anyone but me? The very concept that we could possibly destroy the environment anyway, even if we tried, is both hilarious and sad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Proof once again that Homo Consumptus is alive and well, let`s just hope this one isn`t breeding. And where else would we find this evolutionary phenomenon? Why, of course, the epicenter of evolutionary dead-ends, Texas.

... if I've been on this forum for one day or one decade, I'll "get away" with saying whatever I damn well please, and if not and I'm kicked off, what have I lost?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Any respect or credibility that you might need to have meaningful dialog with rational people here, that`s all. We need relics like you Jeff, please stick around, you are invaluable in helping us make our points.


[ October 23, 2002, 03:42: Message edited by: RC ]
 

TDIinTX

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Location
Dallas, Texas
TDI
2002
Dorado, I appreciate your response very much, as it has been the only one since my comment about the environment that has been respectful and has not attacked me personally--something, by the way, that I have not done to anyone and do not feel I deserve.
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
There was an interesting documentary on PBS/History Channel last week or so. It featured the history of petroleum fuel distribution/transportation. Excellent presentation of our national petroleum pipeline distribution system.

There was also a discussion of alternate fuels, such as biodiesel. Although biodiesel has many wonderful things going for it, the demand for diesel fuel is greater than the biodiesel that can be produced if all the arable land on the planet were used to produce biodiesel.

Just something to think about.
 

wiltjk

Active member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Location
Woodinville, WA
TDI
2014 Jetta SportWagen
been respectful and has not attacked me personally--something, by the way, that I have not done to anyone and do not feel I deserve
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
you people know this
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
What the hell is misfiring in your brains?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
enviro-friendly cookoo-clocks who have neglected or abandoned any knowledge
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
this sound dopey
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, I understand now, your statments are not attacking anyone specific, just all BioD supporters in general.

Wasn't it Forrest Gump that stated "Stupid is as Stupid does"?

Our choice of words can often deter our ability to make a point. I'm an expert at this -- Jeff -- I've put my foot in my mouth more times than I care to admit.

Here's my suggestion: Phrase your objection in the form of a polite question, ie., "Having found out that BioD is less effecient than DinoD, I'm having trouble understanding the rationale behind using it over DinoD. Is it the environment alone or other benefits or what?"

Perhaps, then, our answers might have been less offensive in your eyes - not all - but some.

Just some food for thought


[ October 23, 2002, 05:31: Message edited by: wiltjk ]
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
hey plant based fuels (BioDiesel and Ethanol) are 100% renewable and 100% (in the production of the raw stock) Solar energy.

And the energy you are releasing when you burn BioDiesel in your tank is 100% solar. There was some energy consumed in the manufacturing process before it got to your tank but that could easily be solar power derived.

BioDiesel and Ethanol (gotta say it cause a friend is a Corn farmer and they like the Ethanol fuel stuff) are two completely renewable resources.

If you burn the oil from a crop one year - you'll collect that CO2 from the air (and the nitrogen compounds from the air - soybeans have nitrogen fixing nodules that make nitrogen usable for the plants) the next year - or the south american growers will collect it as you are burning it in the winter.

Green plants represent the most efficient CO2 scrubbers known to man. They do require resources like water but as it so happens so do humans.

Obviously collecting oil from saltwater algea is a better alternative than soybeans but Soybeans are quite commercially viable at this point and there exists a significant production potential for oil stocks.

Sure it has less power - but where is that power coming from? The ground? From a non-renewable resource? Well that trade off is WELL worth it to me!
 

nh mike

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Location
NH
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS wagon, 2004 Passat GLS wagon
Originally posted by Jeff McDaniel:
Bio diesel actually DECREASES fuel economy?? If this is true, you people know this and continue to BUY IT? What the hell is misfiring in your brains? I guess "Bio" is an alarm word to enviro-friendly cookoo-clocks who have neglected or abandoned any knowledge or research of scientific evidence and actually believe we have ANYTHING to do with the environment. Please, people, let's wake up. Enough is enough, you're buying fuel that BURNS FASTER! Does this sound dopey to anyone but me? The very concept that we could possibly destroy the environment anyway, even if we tried, is both hilarious and sad.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Biodiesel is roughly 8% less energy dense than petro diesel. Looking at that alone, you would expect your fuel mileage to drop by 8% (so, instead of 50 mpg, you would get 46 mpg). But, the greater lubricity of biodiesel helps offset that somewhat, so the actual drop is somewhat less. In practice people find that their mileage on B100 is about the same or slightly less than with petro diesel. Before you freak out and start calling us all idiots, please do some research.

Dorado, I appreciate your response very much, as it has been the only one since my comment about the environment that has been respectful and has not attacked me personally--something, by the way, that I have not done to anyone and do not feel I deserve.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah right.
That's an amazing ability for selective memory you seem to have there. Please scroll up to your first post on this thread (actually, I quoted it at the beginning of my post here), and re-read it. SwimmerDave mentioned that with B100 you get a slight decrease in mileage, and rather than looking into it further to find out that it's only a drop of a few percent (less of an effect than what people see from putting 17" wheels/tires on their car), you jumped right into attacking us for using biodiesel.


Texas should change it's state motto to "we may not have a clue what we're talking about, but at least we're loud and obnoxious".
(my apologies to others from Texas who do not fit that stereotype)
 

natescape

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2000
Location
Between Providence and Cape Cod
TDI
None at the moment. *sniff*
Originally posted by Boundless:
Although biodiesel has many wonderful things going for it, the demand for diesel fuel is greater than the biodiesel that can be produced if all the arable land on the planet were used to produce biodiesel.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's actually not true. It may be true if we focus strictly on soybeans, but soy isn't even close to the most productive oil plant.

Pulled from a thread at BIODIESELNOW
The Savoia Power website from Argentina that is linked by CMM is available in English through the http://www.savoiapower.com/ web page but it is not a full translation. Missing in the English version is the following interesting listing of oil production from various crops-

"In a complete process of milling + quimico process, the liters of biodiesel that are obtained by hectare, will depend on the culture that gives origin to the vegetal oil:

- Soybean (Glicine max): 420 liters
- rice (sativa Oriza): 770 liters
- tung (Aleurites fordii): 880 liters
- sunflower (Helianthus annuus): 890 liters
- peanut (hipogaea Arachis): 990 liters
- colza (Brassica napus): 1100 liters
- ricino (tartago) (Ricinus communis): 1320 liters
- jatropa (Jatropha curcas): 1590 liters.
- avocado (palta) (American Persea): 2460 liters
- the Coco (Coconuts nucifera): 2510 liters
- coconut palm (aculeata Acrocomia): 4200 liters
- palm (Elaeis guineensis): 5550 liters
----------------

And biodiesel from algae could EASILY provide all the fuel we need. Algae can be grown in marginal land, and produces incredible yields. If .6% of potential land were used to grow biodiesel algae, we could displace our entire diesel fuel consumption.
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Yeah, I hear ya Nate.

But each of those crops has very specific climatological requirements.

I'm not a plant expert, botanist or what ever, but the crops listed above seem to get into the more oil productive varieties as they get closer to the tropics/equator. There ain't that much productive arable land at/near the equator. And the USA certainly doesn't have significant land holdings in the tropics to domestically produce these oil rich crops in volumes that will displace petro fuel.

A plantation of palm trees ain't gonna happen in the Canadian Plains (but wouldn't that look wild?), but soy beans or rapeseed do quite well there. So where does that leave the US for production of these oil rich crops?
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Chinese restaurants, McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, etc. have enough vegetable oils to keep the entire country running for years on end.

Of course, don't forget that BD has much higher cetane levels than the crappy rotgut crud sold as diesel fuel either....
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
is my taxonomy completely going south out of my noggin? I don't see rapeseed (canola) on there.

That is a true northern oil seed crop.

And another thing to point out - i'd wager it would take Monsanto about 6 months to a year to develop a high oil content soybean that wouuld rival the sunflower or peanut. The rest of the bean might be worthless but the oil would be great.

One advantage to the soybean is that there are multiple markets supported. The oil is extracted and you are left with a high grade protein/starch biomass that is used in animal feed!

There is an extremely low need to, no need to fertilize soybeans - studies have shown that the soybean benefits so little from fertilizing that it isn't cost effective. You cannot say that about many of the other plants.

And harvesting - plam and avacado? what are the costs associated with that? Not to mention the market value for avacados. Heck I'm not sure the oil production will offset the costs.

Soy is a balance - well established seed stock crop in the US - not the best granted but good.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
You still need millions and millions of gallons of petrochemical solvents to process and extract the oils, hexane doesn't come from soybeans, it comes from crude oil.....
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
but that solvent is reusable and you can do heat extraction if you want . . . (if you are not concerned with the protein component). . .
 

natescape

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2000
Location
Between Providence and Cape Cod
TDI
None at the moment. *sniff*
The chart is from an Argentinian company, so they were focusing on South American plants.

Algae is the key.

Besides, I'd much rather buy tropical oils from Latin America than petroleum from the Middle East.
 

jorpet

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2000
Location
West Seattle, WA
TDI
2001 Jetta - 2015 Golf SW
Here is a little refresher on the ability to produce biodiesel in this country.

There are currently about 40 million acres of idled farm land. Add to this 67 million acres of crop land that are being used as grazing land because they can't be farmed profitably.

The average yield of soybeans per year is 40-50 bushels per acres
The average yield of oil per bushel of soybeans is 11 lbs/bushel
It takes 7.6 lbs of oil stock to produce 1 gallon of biodiesel

Given that information:
The US can produce 2.3 - 2.8 billion gallons of biodiesel per year using just idled crop lands.

The US can produce an additional 3.9 - 4.8 billion gallons per year if the crop land that is currently being grazed is used as an oil souce.

That is a total of 6.2 - 7.6 billion gallons per year not including all of the soybeans that are currently grown and not converting other less profitable crops to soybeans.

The US uses 5 billion gallons of diesel annually. So, the US could produce all of the biodiesel from the single source of soybeans if that was the only option, which it is not. The beauty of soybeans is that they will grow anywhere in the lower 48 states so climate isn't an issue.

If PBS claimed that the US can't produce all the diesel they need annually from soybeans they were probably working off the current production numbers. Not exactly a very sound economic principle since if soybeans become increasingly profitable to grow due to demand then more farmers will produce more beans.

There is also the possibility of creating genetic freak beans
that would produce much more oil per bushel. Maybe splice in genes from fragrant flowers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Available bushels/ total bushels oil/ Total Oil Soy Oil/Gal BioDiesel
Acres acre bushel (lbs) Gal BioD Gallons
---------- -------- ------------- ------ -------------- ----------- -------------
39,000,000 40 1,560,000,000 11 17,160,000,000 7.6 2,257,894,737
39,000,000 50 1,950,000,000 11 21,450,000,000 7.6 2,822,368,421
67,000,000 40 2,680,000,000 11 29,480,000,000 7.6 3,878,947,368
67,000,000 50 3,350,000,000 11 36,850,000,000 7.6 4,848,684,211 </pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
You forgot the 5 billion tons of human fat (adipose tissue) that millions of obese American's are hording and carrying around in reserve for the next oil embargo.....
 

jorpet

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2000
Location
West Seattle, WA
TDI
2001 Jetta - 2015 Golf SW
Yeah, SP, I know all about that. I unfortunately have enough of that stored resource to power the Jetta more than a few miles.


You are correct that producing biodiesel doesn't remove all dependence on petroleum oils. We need it for all of our plastics and most of the chemicals we take for granted.

On the other hand if all diesel came from biodiesel (or even a large majority) that would free up some of the precious crude for other needs.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Obese Americans are our true Strategic Defense Reserves!

Just think if we face another Arab Oil Embargo and the government passes a law for the liposuction of triglycerides from our citizens, without any further need for any oil we instead could sell the Arabs some more sand.....
 
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