This Is Your Air Without CARB

bluesmoker

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/17/...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

This is why CARB compliance is the crowning achievement of diesel technology.
well i disagree, the issue is not European emission standards per se, but the complete lack of enforcement of standards and rampant tampering and bypassing of emission control devices. Cat deletes, dpf deletes etc are being completed without any fear of failing the MOT test because the emission standard (below) is simply visual smoke test and a rudementary visual test.

To get around the visual test, vendors are now selling fake dpfs and cat converters.:rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/darksidedevelopments/posts/962408097110091

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-standards-for-road-vehicles-18th-edition.pdf

I wonder what the smog would be like if the MOT actually failed cars with tampered emission controls.
 

Mark_J

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You really think the tiny numbers of vehicles that the owners install delete kits make a dent in extra smog. I doubt it. I am not defending deleting the exhaust, just being practical. If we want to make a difference in the air quality, countries like China that dump every thing into the rivers, and smog so bad you can't see 1/4 mile, and all that smog eventually ends up in the US and the world. The US and Canada have done a lot to clean up the environment, and if the rest of the world were as clean as our environment, things over all would be cleaner. Also we have western developed cities like the British Columbia capital of Victoria which has for years have dumped tens of millions of gallons of raw sewage every day into the waters separating Washington state and Vancouver Island. The city has been ordered to clean up it's act, but all they currently do is sewage is currently screened for solid objects larger than about a quarter-inch, but it isn't treated beyond that. The wastewater is pumped out of two outfalls that run about 213 feet deep and about a mile into the strait. And they wonder why we have to close crabbing in the sound as often as we do. It's because of raw sewage being pumped into the sound for years. So I think our own countries, including the USA and Canada, need to clean up our own back yards before calling out other countries because we look pretty darn hypocritical.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Blah blah blah, its always the diesel engines fault.
 

tikal

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GoFaster

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European emission regulations in general lagged behind those in North America and the climate in much of Europe is such that older vehicles stay on the road a long time (and yes, Los Angeles is like that, too). No question the manner in which the emission regulations were enforced in Europe (if it passes the test, it's all good, and what happens outside of the test procedure doesn't matter) which led to cheating, did not help matters.

But let's not forget that it wasn't CARB that flagged and identified VW's cheat. That took a bunch of students doing a science experiment!
 

Lug_Nut

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....(if it passes the test, it's all good, and what happens outside of the test procedure doesn't matter) which led to cheating, did not help matters."
Now if we would drive, all the time, as we did when taking our license exam.......:rolleyes:
 

wxman

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The major objection I have to CARB regulation policy is that they developed emission standards that essentially ignored valid research results. It was known for decades (since the 1970s) that ozone levels increased on weekends in Southern California relatively more than weekdays even though precursor emissions were significantly lower on weekends than weekday, especially NOx.

This 2003 article offers a good summary of the "weekend ozone effect" research.

In spite of that, CARB proceeded with LEV 2, which mandated a 8.6-fold reduction in NOx emissions (from 0.6 g/mi in Tier 1 to 0.07 g/mi in LEV 2), while only mandating a 3.4-fold reduction in NMHC (from 0.31 g/mi in Tier 1 to 0.09 g/mi in LEV 2).

Even though air quality has generally improved there, ambient ozone remains a significant issue:





Meanwhile, no area in the U.S. is currently in non-attainment with the NO2 NAAQS. CARB's approach is really backward from what it should have been with respect to mobile emission regulations.
 

flee

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The major objection I have to CARB regulation policy is that they developed emission standards that essentially ignored valid research results. It was known for decades (since the 1970s) that ozone levels increased on weekends in Southern California relatively more than weekdays even though precursor emissions were significantly lower on weekends than weekday, especially NOx.
edit
In spite of that, CARB proceeded with LEV 2, which mandated a 8.6-fold reduction in NOx emissions (from 0.6 g/mi in Tier 1 to 0.07 g/mi in LEV 2), while only mandating a 3.4-fold reduction in NMHC (from 0.31 g/mi in Tier 1 to 0.09 g/mi in LEV 2).
Even though air quality has generally improved there, ambient ozone remains a significant issue:
edit
Meanwhile, no area in the U.S. is currently in non-attainment with the NO2 NAAQS. CARB's approach is really backward from what it should have been with respect to mobile emission regulations.
Please note that this improvement is despite a 3-fold increase in vehicle miles driven over the last 40 or so years.
 

wxman

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Please note that this improvement is despite a 3-fold increase in vehicle miles driven over the last 40 or so years.
I'm not suggesting that regulations aren't necessary. However, the ONLY reason for emission standards is to facilitate attainment with ambient air quality standards (NAAQS in the U.S.)

CARB has taken the NOx-control approach to reach attainment with the ozone NAAQS (which was reduced to 70 ppb in December 2015 from 75 ppb), despite research suggesting this is not the best approach. The success of this approach is dubious to date. For example, according to EPA monitoring data, ambient concentration of NO2 in Los Angles has been reduced by nearly 45% between 2000 and 2014 (from 123 ppb in 2000 to 69.4 ppb in 2014), but ambient O3 levels have only decreased by about 15% (from 85 ppb in 2000 to 72 ppb in 2014). NO2 levels in San Bernardino decreased by about 42% but O3 decreased by 12%.

According to a recent study (Fujita et al., "Projected ozone trends and changes in the ozone-precursor relationship in the South Coast Air Basin in response to varying reductions of precursor emissions." J Air Waste Manag Assoc. 2016 Feb;66(2):201-14. doi: 10.1080/10962247.2015.1106991), another 90% reductions in NOx from 2008 levels will be required to reach attainment with the O3 NAAQS. In 2008, ambient NO2 was 79 ppb in San Bernardino. A 90% reduction from 79 ppb would mean that NO2 levels would have to be no more than about 7.9 ppb in order to attain O3 NAAQS.

This may be a difficult target to hit even if all anthropogenic NOx emissions are eliminated, because another study (Oikawa, P. Y. et al. “Unusually high soil nitrogen oxide emissions influence air quality in a high-temperature agricultural region.” Nat. Commun. 6:8753 doi: 10.1038/ncomms9753 (2015)) found very high levels of biogenic/geogenic NOx emissions from agricultural soils in SoCAB.
 

tikal

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wxman, what about volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and other pollutants from gasoline cars (and gasoline production/delivery) slowing the drop of ozone pollution in the Los Angeles Basin?

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/csd/news/2012/119_0809.html

"The 98 percent drop in VOCs in the last 50 years does not mean that ozone levels have dropped that steeply; the air chemistry that leads from VOCs to ozone is more complex than that. Ozone pollution in the Los Angeles Basin has decreased since the 1960s, but levels still don't meet ozone standards set by the Environmental Protection Agency."

I agree with you that EPA/CARB put most of their attention on diesel vehicles and delayed putting gas particle filters (GPF) and other measures for gasoline cars until 2018-19 time frame. The result is, in my view, a mediocre return on investment so far in terms of ozone and other ground level pollutants for our cities.
 
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turbovan+tdi

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Please note that this improvement is despite a 3-fold increase in vehicle miles driven over the last 40 or so years.
And how many millions more cars on the road? :D
 

wxman

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...The result is, in my view, a mediocre return on investment so far in terms of ozone and other ground level pollutants for our cities.
Completely agree.

In its zeal to further reduce NOx emissions, CARB has petitioned the EPA to reduce NOx emissions from diesel trucks, from 0.2 g/bhp-hr to 0.02 g/bhp-hr. EPA has apparently accepted the petition and will be issuing a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking soon. Even though it appears additional NOx control after-treatment may allow diesel truck engines to attain this NOx emission level (https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/hdlownox/files/03workshop_11032016-low_nox_research.pdf), it means even more cost and marginally higher fuel consumption.

In the meantime, "near zero" natural gas engines are being promoted as a low-NOx solution (http://www.cert.ucr.edu/research/efr/2016 CWI LowNOx NG_Finalv06.pdf). However, according to that paper:


"…NH3 concentration varied from 118 ppm (UDDS) to 305 ppm (CBD)…" [not detectable – 1.369 ppm in ACES 2, the emission study of 2010-compliant diesel engines]

"…CO emissions ranged between 1.3 to 5.3 g/bhp-hr…" [0.023 g/bhp-hr – 0.096 g/bhp-hr in ACES 2]

"…NMHC emissions ranged from 0.003 g/bhp-hr to 0.594 g/bhp-hr…" [0.000 g/bhp-hr - 0.000 g/bhp-hr in ACES 2]

"…The ISL G NZ and ISL G both show higher PN emissions compared to diesel vehicles equipped with DPFs…." [Page 32]


So the trade-off for lower NOx emissions is higher emissions of all other tested pollutants.
 

wxman

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Also notice in the Lawson article I linked above:


... Because the SoCAB is generally VOC-sensitive with regard to O3 formation, weekend O3 would be even higher than it is, were it not for the concurrent 12%–30% VOC emissions reductions that take place on weekends....

So the air quality improvements in SoCAB have been mainly from the VOC reductions, at least with respect to ozone formation.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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I'd consider replacing my old polluting diesel car with a new diesel car that pollutes much less.

Unfortunately there's nothing available right now, other than extremely expensive luxury models.

So, I'll just keep polluting, I guess.
 

Matt-98AHU

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I do have a couple problems with the way the article is written. It calls out NOx as being directly deadly when those in the know blame it for more indirect production of ozone, as some of you have pointed out. There is a certain ratio of VOCs to NOx that will maximize production of ozone (which is the real problem with pollution regulations are attempting to curb), as has also been noted with mention of the weekend effect, where less diesel traffic on weekends dropped NOx output, but made the ratio of VOCs to NOx even more effective at producing O3.

However, this study points out that a massive drop in NOx output will ultimately have a better effect on slowing ozone reduction than an increase in diesel sales/increase in NOx output, hence the reasoning behind the regulations.

So, this is where the U.S. was smart to not encourage the sale of diesels until they had cleaned up significantly, because diesels have undoubtedly contributed greatly to the pollution problems of places like London and Paris, where for years regulators had provided incentives to buy diesels, thus making their local markets flood with diesel options and ultimately making their pollution issued worse.

But therein lies the rub. Now, since the regulators in Europe have encouraged and incentivized diesel sales for so long, they want to outright BAN diesels altogether from city centers, without taking into account that the latest generation of diesels are in fact exceptionally clean vehicles and are not contributing to the pollution issues like they assume. The older diesel cars with less sophisticated emissions controls devices? Sure, they're contributing to the problem, but the knee-jerk response to ban EVERY vehicle of a certain technology, while ignoring the fact that due to regulations the latest generation are in fact squeaky clean, even the cheaty ones, is disappointingly short-sighted, especially when the blame for most of the problem lies squarely with those very same regulators who thought encouraging the sales of diesels was a good idea more than 20 years ago...

They created the problem and now that diesels have actually gotten very clean, they're going to ban them outright? Fantastic bit of governance there...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Does anyone see the irony that the OP lives in Southern CA, the region with the worst air quality in the US, and where auto emissions are dictated by CARB?
 
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aja8888

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Does anyone see the irony that the OP lives in Southern CA, the region with the worst air quality in the US, and where auto emissions are dictated by CARB?
Yes, ironic.

You would think that if CARB was effective, southern California would be in compliance with its SIP and the Clean Air Act ambient air quality standards. Then I would suppose finger pointing would be justified.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Instead they have one of the highest childhood asthma rates in the nation. And LA exceeds ozone standards well over 100 days a year.
 

ketchupshirt88

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*caution: entering fairy tale land, where governing bodies listen to science, facts and statistics...*

why do government agencies create ever stricter regs for cars while the 5 largest tankers in the world emit more pollution than every car in north america combined???

then multiply that by the thousands of large ocean going transport ships... But oh lordy we had better reduce the pollution from our passenger cars...

of course clean air matters, but shouldnt the biggest polluters be the ones in the crosshairs?
 
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wxman

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But again, the response to reductions in ambient NO2 levels relative to ambient O3 levels does not correspond to a transition to a NOx-limited regime in California, even as of 2015.

According to EPA, ambient NO2 levels in the Southwestern U.S. (EPA Region 8) have declined by over 10% from 2010 to 2015 (from 42 ppb to 37.7 ppb). Ambient ozone levels in that same period are essentially flat (74 ppb to 73.4 ppb).


https://www3.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker...98V&styear=2000&endyear=2015&pre=val&region=8

https://www3.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker...X4V&styear=2000&endyear=2015&pre=val&region=8


The point isn't that diesel vehicles are incapable of meeting extremely strict NOx emission limits, they are. It's which approach is most beneficial for O3 reduction. I remain skeptical that a primarily NOx-control strategy is the best approach.
 

jackbombay

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why do government agencies create ever stricter regs for cars while the 5 largest tankers in the world emit more pollution than every car in north america combined???

then multiply that by the thousands of large ocean going transport ships... But oh lordy we had better reduce the pollution from our passenger cars...
How many children live within a 1/4 mile of a highway in southern california? Millions? How many children live within a 1/4 mile of the worlds largest tankers? Zero?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Ever seen the soot that collects on everything in Long Beach? The ships sit in the harbor and idle, and there's a coal terminal in San Pedro that generates dust which blows around. I think there are a few kids in Long Beach.
 

john.jackson9213

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*caution: entering fairy tale land, where governing bodies listen to science, facts and statistics...*

why do government agencies create ever stricter regs for cars while the 5 largest tankers in the world emit more pollution than every car in north america combined???

then multiply that by the thousands of large ocean going transport ships... But oh lordy we had better reduce the pollution from our passenger cars...

of course clean air matters, but shouldnt the biggest polluters be the ones in the crosshairs?
California ports are now pushing ships to shut down their diesel engines while in port and hook up to shore power while in port for just this reason. (At least most of the time).

Please note that Large Ocean going transport ships are in the middle of the ocean - NOT in the middle of large cities with 18 million people like cars.
 
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jackbombay

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IndigoBlueWagon

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I'm not talking about the ships at docks. They anchor out in the harbor waiting to dock and unload.
 

turbocharged798

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California ports are now pushing ships to shut down their diesel engines while in port and hook up to shore power while in port for just this reason. (At least most of the time).

Please note that Large Ocean going transport ships are in the middle of the ocean - NOT in the middle of large cities with 18 million people like cars.
And much of america's population does not live in polluted congested cities yet we have to suffer of these laws.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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And much of america's population does not live in polluted congested cities yet we have to suffer of these laws.
That doesn't matter. Pollution travels. Ask people in Canada who suffer from acid rain caused by rust belt pollution. Or Californians who get pollution from China. As if they don't have enough of their own.

I don't mind pollution regulations, just CARB's holier than thou attitude, especially when they've been at it in LA for 40+ years and it's not working.
 
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