Clean Diesel DPF Data Collection Thread

umrpunter

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09' Black Jetta TDI manny tranny, tan pleather, wd6050 hd
anyone want to start a full excel sheet of this? With enough data points we can do some simple stats on it to figure out what we can expect. All we need is data, and the density of soot (I believe it was said to be /1g/ml, but probably should double check).
 

Elfnmagik

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MemberName: elfnmagik
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta, 4dr
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 51,700
Oil Ash Volume: 48ml
Avrg. MPG: 38 (lifetime)
No. of regens: 4.0
Current soot load: 16.5 (went into a regen right after)
Oil type: Mobile 1 ESP
 
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Absolute Diesel

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Was there a definitive answer on the max level of oil ash volume these filters can take or were we just guessing?

Is there a difference in this max level between the 09 DPF design and the 10+ DPF design?
 

darrelld

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Was there a definitive answer on the max level of oil ash volume these filters can take or were we just guessing?

Is there a difference in this max level between the 09 DPF design and the 10+ DPF design?
I cannot find anything definitive from VW on ash levels, if you read the MIT study below the amounts seem to vary. The study does indicate a possible to solution to cleaning ash from a DPF by heating beyond 1000C, not certain what those temps will do to the VW specific design. Might be worth a shot if you are looking at replacement anyway and have the tools and facility to experiment.
 

tcp_ip_dude

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This was previously mentioned, so it may not answer your question.

(Excerpted from the VW 2.0L CR self study guide.)

"When the DPF load condition reaches 1.59 ounces (45 grams), service regeneration is no longer possible. Because the danger of destroying the filter is too great with this load, the filter must be replaced."
 
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HeAvYfUeL

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MemberName: HeAvYfUeL
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta Wagon
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 24,250
Oil Ash Volume: 18 ml
Avrg. MPG: 35.1
Oil: Castrol LL03
Location: QC

Comments:
Sometimes use PS. Mainly only in the winter.
8.1 Soot Load(g) Calculated
0.0 Soot Load(g) Measured
1.4 l Fuel Consumption Since last Regen
20 km Mileage Since last Regen
24.0 Time elapsed since Regeneration
 
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Absolute Diesel

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This was previously mentioned, so it may not answer's your question.

(Excerpted from the VW 2.0L CR self study guide.)

"When the DPF ash load reaches 1.59 ounces (45 grams), service regeneration is no longer possible. Because the danger of destroying the filter is too great with this load, the filter must be replaced."
Thanks for posting this - but something does not add up (or I am missing something).

If you convert 1.59 oz's to ml we get roughly 47 ml. There are posters with ash in the 40-60 range and they have not have to have their units replaced.
 

WVU TDI

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Thanks for posting this - but something does not add up (or I am missing something).

If you convert 1.59 oz's to ml we get roughly 47 ml. There are posters with ash in the 40-60 range and they have not have to have their units replaced.
fluid oz =/= weighted ounces?
 

JSWTDI09

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I fear we are confusing DPF oil ash load with DPF soot load. Ash load has very little to do with the ability to do a re-gen (unless the DPF is so full it prevents air flow). Soot load is what makes regeneration necessary and too much soot load might make regens impossible. However, ash load is the accumulation of ash that is the result of regeneration (not the cause).

What the Self study book actually says is: "when the load condition reaches 1.59 ounces (45 grams) service regeneration is no longer possible". It does NOT say "ash load" - they are talking about soot load. The soot is trapped in the DPF. When the DPF regenerates, that trapped soot is burned and the ash falls down to the bottom of the filter and accumulates in the bottom of the DPF canister. This is the "oil ash load".

Let's not confuse soot load with ash load - they are very different things. This subject is confusing enough without adding additional confusion about terms. Semantics (words) can easily blur understanding.

[edit] To summarize: "Soot load" is the cause of re-generations, and if regens cannot (do not) occur too much soot load can make regens impossible. However, "ash load" is the accumulated result of many regenerations. When the DPF gets so full of ash that exhaust gas flow is blocked - the DPF must be replaced (or serviced, hopefully). If everything is working properly - this should be well over 120k miles.

Have Fun!

Don
 
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darrelld

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I fear we are confusing DPF oil ash load with DPF soot load. Ash load has very little to do with the ability to do a re-gen (unless the DPF is so full it prevents air flow). Soot load is what makes regeneration necessary and too much soot load might make regens impossible. However, ash load is the accumulation of ash that is the result of regeneration (not the cause).

What the Self study book actually says is: "when the load condition reaches 1.59 ounces (45 grams) service regeneration is no longer possible". It does NOT say "ash load" - they are talking about soot load. The soot is trapped in the DPF. When the DPF regenerates, that trapped soot is burned and the ash falls down to the bottom of the filter and accumulates in the bottom of the DPF canister. This is the "oil ash load".

Let's not confuse soot load with ash load - they are very different things. This subject is confusing enough without adding additional confusion about terms. Semantics (words) can easily blur understanding.

Have Fun!

Don
Anyone know the highest mileage 09 TDI and the status of the DPF?
 

JSWTDI09

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Anyone know the highest mileage 09 TDI and the status of the DPF?
There are definitely some '09s with over 120k miles and still on the original DPF. I would love to see their ash load numbers, but they are not here.

Have Fun!

Don
 

tcp_ip_dude

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Thanks for posting this - but something does not add up (or I am missing something).

If you convert 1.59 oz's to ml we get roughly 47 ml. There are posters with ash in the 40-60 range and they have not have to have their units replaced.
Different units of measure. What I posted are weights (ounces and grams) not volume (liters / fluid ounces). You cannot convert grams to liters.
 

tcp_ip_dude

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I fear we are confusing DPF oil ash load with DPF soot load. Ash load has very little to do with the ability to do a re-gen (unless the DPF is so full it prevents air flow). Soot load is what makes regeneration necessary and too much soot load might make regens impossible. However, ash load is the accumulation of ash that is the result of regeneration (not the cause).

What the Self study book actually says is: "when the load condition reaches 1.59 ounces (45 grams) service regeneration is no longer possible". It does NOT say "ash load" - they are talking about soot load. The soot is trapped in the DPF. When the DPF regenerates, that trapped soot is burned and the ash falls down to the bottom of the filter and accumulates in the bottom of the DPF canister. This is the "oil ash load".

Let's not confuse soot load with ash load - they are very different things. This subject is confusing enough without adding additional confusion about terms. Semantics (words) can easily blur understanding.

[edit] To summarize: "Soot load" is the cause of re-generations, and if regens cannot (do not) occur too much soot load can make regens impossible. However, "ash load" is the accumulated result of many regenerations. When the DPF gets so full of ash that exhaust gas flow is blocked - the DPF must be replaced (or serviced, hopefully). If everything is working properly - this should be well over 120k miles.

Have Fun!

Don
Don is right on this, it does say "load condition" and I think the distinction he makes between "ash" and "soot" is very important. My bad. Good catch and good point. Thanks Don.

I made a mistake when I transcribed the wording from the self study guide (couldn't easily cut and paste from the guide using my iPad). Corrected wording in original post and annotated reason for correction.
 
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Plus 3 Golfer

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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
The problem we have is that we do not know the actual density of the soot or ash in the DPF. One can convert grams to liters and liters to grams, if one knows the density of the soot or the density of the ash in the DPF. I have read a study that said the range of diesel soot density is between 0.6 - 1.0 g/ml. The range is because the porosity of the soot can vary. I can not find any range for density of ash in a DPF.

It would be great if we had access to the algorithm used to make estimations of soot and ash load. The soot / ash loads are likely estimated / calculated over time based on pressure drop across the DPF, air flow (MAF data), fuel consumption, and perhaps other data. We can assume that the algorithm makes assumptions in order to compute how much soot has been oxidized and how much ash has accumulated during active / distance / service regens. As the DPF fills with ash over time, the minimum measured differential pressure drop should gradually increase (more permanent blockage of the air path through the DPF by ash). It makes sense to measure permanent "blockage" by volume and not grams as the density of ash can vary.

The MIT study indicates that the typical porosity of ash is 85-95% and if the exahust temperature of the DPF is over 700*C, there is a large reduction in the volume of ash. Thus, there is the potential to reduce ash volume considerably at very high exhaust temperatures.

It seems all we can do now is to collect the DPF data as miles on our cars accumulate and DPF replacements /cleanings are required. With enough data and replacements / cleanings we might be able to draw some conclusions on the expected life of the DPF based on the data.
 

dweisel

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I fear we are confusing DPF oil ash load with DPF soot load. Ash load has very little to do with the ability to do a re-gen (unless the DPF is so full it prevents air flow). Soot load is what makes regeneration necessary and too much soot load might make regens impossible. However, ash load is the accumulation of ash that is the result of regeneration (not the cause).

The soot is trapped in the DPF. When the DPF regenerates, that trapped soot is burned and the ash falls down to the bottom of the filter and accumulates in the bottom of the DPF canister. This is the "oil ash load".


Have Fun!

Don
From the looks of it there is no area at the bottom of the DPF for ash to accumulate. Looks like the ash just builds up in the DPF tubes. Unless the US version is designed different,I would think ash would build the same.

Here is some interesting reading and pics.
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f7/mkv-dpf-dissection-8267/
 
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MacBuckeye

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North Carolina
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2009 Jetta
I couldn't squeeze out any info from my local dealer in regards to the amount or anticipated amount of oil ash the DPF can hold. I'm sure they don't want to be caught "quoting" a figure. Can't blame them.

From the limited data collected thus far, it looks like for every 10K miles, we accumulate about 10 ml of oil ash. I emailed a member who has 90K miles, but they don't have a VAGCOM. I'm curious what he has. My gut feeling tells me the driving style has an impact on oil ash accumulation as well as the type of oil used. Doesn't our oil trap or absorb ash? If so, wouldn't changing the oil more often be advantageous?

BTW, at 62K miles, my oil ash is still 60 ml. I'm curious when it will increase again.

I appreciate the posts and for all the commentary. Look forward to seeing where this leads us.
 

FraggyTDI

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04 Jetta
Hello everyone, I thought I would contribute my knowledge on this matter. I currently work for a diesel engine company that uses DPF in their trucks. From what I have learned you can burn off soot (which is unburned diesel)>this creates ash which is carbon.

Most vehicals do passive regen when you are driving but this is not hot enough to burn the soot completly so eventually you have to do a "parked regen."

Here is Regeneration as laid out by our company.

Regeneration
Periodically, the soot and ash particulates in the DPF must be burned off. This process is called regeneration and it can occur passively, actively, or by a driver-initiated procedure.

Passive regeneration of the DPF simply means that, at normal highway operating temperatures, the exhaust system gets hot enough to ignite these particulates in the DPF. This automatically cleans, or regenerates, the filtration material in the DPF, extending its usable life.
Active regeneration is initiated automatically by the aftertreatment system when passive regeneration is not effective enough by itself. This can be necessary in cold climates or during light duty cycles in which normal operating temperatures are not always reached. During the Active Regeneration process, fuel is injected into the exhaust stream and ignited at the DOC, raising the temperature of the DPF enough to burn the particulates.

The third is Driver Initiated or Parked Regeneration. This is where the truck is parked and the throttle valve is closed to and the rpm's are increased. This goes on for about 20 minutes to allow the DPF to get hot enough to burn off all of the soot.

Eventually the DPF gets to full of ash from regens and operation. Our DPF's are rated for 150,000 miles before they need to be cleaned out. But this can depend on what kind of driving is being done.

So I'm assuming that the VW's work similer to the trucks. Whether they have a doser or not I don't know but I'm sure their DPF's are rated for similar milage before they need to be cleaned out. BUT.....knowning stealerships they will probably just replace the whole DPF with a new one instead of just cleaning out the DPF.

The drive of our truck is signaled when to do a regen by the ECU which uses a delta pressure sensor that connects to both the front and rear of the DPF. This measures the amount of back pressure caused by containment build up.
 
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darrelld

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Hello everyone, I thought I would contribute my knowledge on this matter. I currently work for a diesel engine company that uses DPF in their trucks. From what I have learned you can burn off soot (which is unburned diesel)>this creates ash which is carbon.

Most vehicals do passive regen when you are driving but this is not hot enough to burn the soot completly so eventually you have to do a "parked regen."

On the trucks that we make there is a DOC(diesel oxidation catalyst) before the DPF. Also there is an exhaust throttle valve and a doser valve to assist in parked regen. When the parked regen is needed the truck gets parked the engine rpms increase and the exhaust throttle valve closes to increase temperatures. Once it is hot enough the exhaust is released threw the DOC and into the DPF, as this is happening a dose of diesel is shot in with the exhaust to light the DPF on fire this allows for it to reach the needed temperature to burn of any soot. all the soot becomes ash and collects at the bottom of the DPF.

Eventually the DPF gets to full of ash from regens and operation. Our DPF's are rated for 150,000 miles before they need to be cleaned out. But this can depend on what kind of driving is being done.

So I'm assuming that the VW's work similer to the trucks. Whether they have a doser or not I don't know but I'm sure their DPF's are rated for similar milage before they need to be cleaned out. BUT.....knowning stealerships they will probably just replace the whole DPF with a new one instead of just cleaning out the DPF.

The drive of our truck is signaled when to do a regen by the ECU which uses a delta pressure sensor that connects to both the front and rear of the DPF. This measures the amount of back pressure caused by containment build up.
What type of driving causes the DPF to need removal and servicing quicker?
 

FraggyTDI

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What type of driving causes the DPF to need removal and servicing quicker?
Stop go traffic, because you aren't constantly flowing hot exhaust through the DPF, plus you're creating more soot when you are always taking off. I bet if you compare avg fuel economy to the mileage between Regens you will see a correlation between low fuel economy and low miles between DPF regens. This would most likely mean you are driving city and not as much highway.
 

darrelld

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I just double-checked and this figure is "zero" all the time.

Darrelld- how did you get "successful regens" to give you a number other than "0" ? What version of VAGCOM are you using?
Using the latest release 10.6.4.
 

dataiv

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I also am using the latest version (10.6.4) and get 0.0 for the successful regens number.

I am at 10600km (not miles) and my VCDS is still showing 0 ml for ash volume.
 

darrelld

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MacBuckeye

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the memory registers for the 2011 ECM and the values are stored elsewhere.
I wonder if it has to do with the model year car. I'll bet the 2009 ECM's don't capture/register this information, therefor the measuring block is zero, but 2010+ models will? But that doesn't explain Dataiv's car registering zero also. Let me email Ross-Tech and ask them.
 
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