Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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meerschm

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never wrestle with a pig.

1. the pig likes it

2. after a while, it hard for bystanders to tell which one is the pig.
 

Lucidexp

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Please explain how it is so unsafe for one of these VWAG diesels which make up less than 0.01 % of what is on the road today pose any safety or otherwise risk to anyone??????
In short if everyone drove a TDI then we would be in serious trouble with the level of NOx which is a byproduct of our cars (which we were never informed about when purchasing said car). So what makes us so special that we are allowed to smog others at 40 times the amount of other vehicles? I mean if we cant have universal rules that apply to all cars then what is the point of even having rules if we start making exceptions to the rules?
 
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GlennGlenn

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In short if everyone drove a TDI then we would be in serious trouble. So what makes us so special that we are allowed to smog others at 40 times the amount of other vehicles? I mean if we cant have universal rules that apply to all cars then what is the point of even having rules if we start making exceptions to the rules?
There's no exception to these rules for VW of A. As I have said, its a you either did or didn't law, its not a matter of degree nor what damage it caused. YOU either did or didn't cheat on the firmware. Getting into the results of that firmware cheat doesn't matter, whether it be how much NOX was spewed and what that caused. NOW, its just a matter of how much $$ its going to cost them.

OH, and there's NO exceptions to the rules...................
 

Lucidexp

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Other than the fact that GM had an engineer on record, as I recall, claiming to have identified the problem years prior, and being quashed in his effort to fix it, thus making it deliberate . . .
outside of mathematics does two negatives make a positive?
 

fredthe

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....The company still lacks a technical fix to lower toxic emissions of its affected U.S. diesels to pass the country’s more demanding emission regimes and effectively reduce exhaust fumes.
Looking at the latest from CARB (http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_12_18 arb_vw_recall.pdf) it's hard to support the assertion that VW lacks the fix. It does look like VW provided additional information to CARB through the middle of November, which is why CARB is saying they won't have a response until January 14th.
We Don't Know If VW Has a Fix or Not. They have proposed something, and now we need to wait for CARB to find out what that something is.
 

Lucidexp

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Looking at the latest from CARB (http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_12_18 arb_vw_recall.pdf) it's hard to support the assertion that VW lacks the fix. It does look like VW provided additional information to CARB through the middle of November, which is why CARB is saying they won't have a response until January 14th.
We Don't Know If VW Has a Fix or Not. They have proposed something, and now we need to wait for CARB to find out what that something is.
Or VW could have just designed the cars to meet emissions standards and gotten CARB's approval before manufacturing rather than coming up with a cheat device.
 

rotarykid

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if pigs could fly we have a hard time catching them to make ham & bacon.

In short if everyone drove a TDI then we would be in serious trouble with the level of NOx which is a byproduct of our cars (which we were never informed about when purchasing said car). So what makes us so special that we are allowed to smog others at 40 times the amount of other vehicles? I mean if we cant have universal rules that apply to all cars then what is the point of even having rules if we start making exceptions to the rules?


And if pigs could fly we have a hard time catching them to make ham & bacon....Or if we actually measured and regulated gasoline engine produced ultra fine PMs we would really have cleaner air and improved health.....
 

kjclow

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Interesting note tonight. The FTC fined Lumosity $50 million for deceptive ads but reduced the fine to $2 million because they couldn't afford it. Makes me wonder how much of that announced $80 million VWAG will end up paying.
 

romad

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Looking at the latest from CARB (http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_12_18 arb_vw_recall.pdf) it's hard to support the assertion that VW lacks the fix. It does look like VW provided additional information to CARB through the middle of November, which is why CARB is saying they won't have a response until January 14th.
We Don't Know If VW Has a Fix or Not. They have proposed something, and now we need to wait for CARB to find out what that something is.
Except that CARB refuses to allow the public to know what the proposed fix entails. What is CARB hiding from the public? The amount of kickbacks?
 

GlennGlenn

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Interesting note tonight. The FTC fined Lumosity $50 million for deceptive ads but reduced the fine to $2 million because they couldn't afford it. Makes me wonder how much of that announced $80 million VWAG will end up paying.
Isn't that Million with a B ???
 

pkhoury

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McDonald's is so many orders of magnitude deadlier, that their grill emissions alone are probably statistically responsible for far more than 150 deaths. And we all breath air regardless of where we eat. And that air has hardly been impacted at all by 500,000 fuel sipping tdi's. In fact, any impact has probably been positive when you consider the emissions from the gasoline alternative autos.
Ha, I think about the emissions from police cars that are left idling, even if they're not occupied for an hour or two at a time. But does anyone regulate that? NO..... Or what about the gas guzzling trucks and SUVs from the 70s and 80s that get 8mpg? I'm sure they don't meet current emissions requirements, and they're still on the road. Oh wait, they're totally safe and don't emit any NOx, HC or CO.
 

kjclow

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The same website you used (cars.com) also did an article on the free fall of TDI values - https://www.cars.com/articles/used-vw-diesel-prices-continue-to-decline--1420682860308/

If you are a "proud" Jetta Sportwagon TDI owner like myself then in 2 1/2 months your car value dropped more than 10%. If that trend keeps up it will be one of the fastest depreciating car values ever.

we are blessed to own such fine cars
Reading that article shows that it is not the doom and gloom heralding the demise of the Diesel engine or VW. On average, value of all VWAG vehicles is done between 8 and 9%. Sure that still not great news but more like less bad news. Values for VW cars has dropped less than the electric/hybrid cars mentioned in the previous post.
 

bizzle

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Reading that article shows that it is not the doom and gloom heralding the demise of the Diesel engine or VW. On average, value of all VWAG vehicles is done between 8 and 9%. Sure that still not great news but more like less bad news. Values for VW cars has dropped less than the electric/hybrid cars mentioned in the previous post.
One problem with the way people usually calculate averages is that they don't account for wide variances on the ends.

That is, old TDIs may have only lost a few percentage points of value whereas newer ones could have lost 30% and the average would still only be between 8 and 9%.

Even assuming an 8 to 9% average drop across all models and years (in incorrect assumption as I've pointed out above, but best case scenario for calculations), that might only account for a few hundred dollars for some vehicles and more than ten times that in others.

I parked the 2012 JSW because it has 117,000 miles on it and I don't want to roll it over the 120K California emissions warranty. I have been tracking the value of my car through blackbook because my wife and I were thinking about trading it in, but it's been dropping about $1,000 per month for the last three months without any miles being put on it.
 

SageBrush

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I have been tracking the value of my car through blackbook because my wife and I were thinking about trading it in, but it's been dropping about $1,000 per month for the last three months without any miles being put on it.
That is interesting data but what is blackbook relying on when dealers refuse to take the cars ?
 

bizzle

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That is interesting data but what is blackbook relying on when dealers refuse to take the cars ?
I've contacted nearly a dozen dealerships and all of them were willing to take my TDI in for trade...albeit at a $6,000 dollar loss under what I owe.
 

SageBrush

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Other than the fact that GM had an engineer on record, as I recall, claiming to have identified the problem years prior, and being quashed in his effort to fix it, thus making it deliberate . . .
The cover-up was deliberate and the decision to keep using the part was deliberate. The earlier point was that the part was not designed to defraud the law of the land with every car sold in the US.

IANAL, but the cases just do not strike me as having legal parallels. Which is not to say that I think GM was penalized fairly. They got off with a wrist slap due to US politics, just as Germany gave VW a pass.
 
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romad

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I parked the 2012 JSW because it has 117,000 miles on it and I don't want to roll it over the 120K California emissions warranty. I have been tracking the value of my car through blackbook because my wife and I were thinking about trading it in, but it's been dropping about $1,000 per month for the last three months without any miles being put on it.
Sorry, but you may already be out of warranty:

In California and any other state that adopts California emission warranty provisions, such warranty coverage is applicable for 3 years/50,000 miles from date of first use, and specific control devices are covered for 7 years/70,000 miles from date of first use.

That 7 years/70,000 miles does not start at the end of the 3 years/50,000 mile mark, but rather starts at the same time. The FEDERAL emissions warranty is for 8 years/80,000 miles. Here is the question: are CARB emissions certified cars also covered in year 8 and miles 70,001 through 80,000 by it or does the Federal warranty only apply to non-CARB emissions cars?

I know there was a special extension for some 1999 to 2001 VW cars to 10 years/120,000 miles, but has there been another exception due to dieselgate?
 

bizzle

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VW chose to certify their vehicles under the Tier 2, Bin 5 standard.
The effective lifetime of the emissions system is 120,000 miles.
The car is not operating within that standard, but after 120K miles any claims under that legal theory may become moot.
 

romad

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VW chose to certify their vehicles under the Tier 2, Bin 5 standard.
The effective lifetime of the emissions system is 120,000 miles.
The car is not operating within that standard, but after 120K miles any claims under that legal theory may become moot.
How many years, 10?
 

gmcjetpilot

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Ha!...we have an "enthusiast" here I see. I s'pose you'd rather debate
whether the amount of NOX per VW TDI actually causes harm, about the
differences in allowable NOX level requirements allowed per year, or
whether VW's foul/fraud is any worse than any other corporate foul/fraud.
Sorry my post rubbed you and your beloved VW enthusiasm the wrong way <--sarcasm

BTW...posts are written in context.

Now go get yourself a beer and calm your nerves.
I am sorry you are so sad and despondent. Maybe therapy will help you
work through your issues. Oh yes beer, good idea, I just bought some with
my $1000 VW bucks... Thanks VW! Cheers.

As far as your repetition, you can't help it I guess. Bygones.

Bottom line there is no proof anyone one person has suffered any
permanent health issue. MIT/Harvard letter which I have not read
claims 60 people will suffer shorter lifespan due to TDI, which were sold
from 2009-2015, approximately 500,000 total. That is what we call a
SWAG.... Scientific Wild Ass Guessing. Everyday, on average 10 people die
choking on a tuna fish sandwich, so eat less tuna and drive your TDI more
and live longer (if you don't suck on your TDI's tail pipe). <<<<< sarcasm.
 
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kjclow

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You're equating negligence with an intentional act and I think they are looking at Dieselgate as an intentional act ( fraud). NO ONE is alleging that Takata or GM intentionally made improper airbags or ignition switches.
IIRC, there has been a lot of discussion about what and when both GM and Takata realized there was an issue and how long it took either of them to come forward. GM argued for quite awhile that there was nothing wrong with the ignition switches.
 

nwdiver

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Bottom line there is no proof anyone one person has suffered any
permanent health issue. MIT/Harvard letter which I have not read
claims 60 people will suffer shorter lifespan due to TDI, which were sold
from 2009-2015, approximately 500,000 total.
Sooooo ..... should we stop adding expensive emissions equipment to cars and go back to 70s era LA?



That's LA... it's in there somewhere.... pretty sure of it....
 

TCBinaflash

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Please explain how it is so unsafe for one of these VWAG diesels which make up less than 0.01 % of what is on the road today pose any safety or otherwise risk to anyone??????
Quick answer is.......They could not possibly pose any risk to anyone anywhere in the US today!!!!!!!!
490,000 vehicles sold compared to 40,000,000 others sold during that time......Most of which were larger displacement gassers and direct injection gasssers who put out mega-t0ns of ultra fine PMs unregulated or measured....direct injection gasoline engines which exceed NOx maximum limits by extreme amounts during their daily time of 15-20 mins of warmup time, vehicles which make up 1-3+ million of what was sold over this time.....
So please enough with your bs, these things pose no safety or emissions issue in their current programming form because of the low numbers compared to everything else during this time...That is a FACT!!!! that the current BS being done by CARB & the EPA fails to take into account or admitt....
I only pop in the forum now and again to get updates and I don't mean to pick your comment out specifically but I'd like to make a quick point since these comments pro/against VWs actually hurting people.

There are 2 groups of people in this debate:

1. These cars killed innocent people in some sort of fashion or caused subs tail environmental harm

2. These cars didn't kill anyone or at least the same amount of folks that slip on banana peels every year. So shut up stoopid.

The real true crux to why the EPA/CARB/DOJ are taking action is much larger in scope.

These guidelines are set so all manufacturers do not as a whole contribute to a worse environment. Common sense should tell everyone that these cars are not really truly not impacting the environment in any great and substantial way.

The key pisser in this for the agencies is that if ALL auto manufacturers produced cars with these emission systems it WOULD cause major issues. And if they don't stomp on VW's throat and show authority then their power is meaningless.

This is simply about following the law of the land and keeping the playing field even for the manufacturers and respecting that as an industry in a country that allows you to profit greatly in their market share.

You guys are arguing about nothing.
 

dbias

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??? I agree that the numbers are low but it's difficult to argue that 'no one' was killed. The facts certainly don't support that...

FACT: >3000 asthma deaths per year

FACT: NOx causes asthma

FACT: Due to cheating VW vehicles release an additional ~10000 tons of NOx/yr

It strains credulity that increasing an agent known to cause asthma would have no effect on asthma...
But after three days NOx breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen. So its really only 10,000 x[ 3/365] on any given day? Which is 82 tons roughly spread out over the US?
 
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