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Old February 14th, 2011, 07:47   #166
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Originally Posted by Absolute Diesel View Post
Hopefully we get a recall, new redesigned HPFP's in all of our TDI's and in the 11's going forward and we can put this problem to bed.
There is no way VW is going to replace everyone's HPFP as a preventative measure. At this time the failure rates aren't steep enough for them to be forced to do so, either. There will be a certain amount of goodwill and a secret warranty from VW if you have a pump crap out that was from the weak production run. That's the cheapest way for VW to handle this.

A year or two from now, we will know that Bosch and VW were scrambling behind the scenes to fix this with the late 2010 and 2011 cars. The "revisions" of the fuel pumps probably include additional hardening of the pump cam, plunger roller and plunger with possible application of anti-friction coatings.

I know that the 2011 cars don't have as many miles on them, but this problem seems to be going away with the pump revisions.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 07:47   #167
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The dealer ship were I bought my car uses TDI as loners.I guess a couple put of customers put gas in them.Now they a magnet that say diesel fuel only in bright letters.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 07:49   #168
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The dealer ship were I bought my car uses TDI as loners.I guess a couple put of customers put gas in them.Now they a magnet that say diesel fuel only in bright letters.
What kind of nut a that dealership gave out TDI's as loners?
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Old February 14th, 2011, 08:38   #169
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
The 460 rating is an absolute maximum, no leeway - Bosch recommends 400, actually.
I'd love to see how that goes in an engineering review. It's akin to selling a gasoline car advertised as requiring regular gas, then later finding out if you don't use >100 octane racing fuel it may cause serious damage to the engine. (I'm sure someone will have an issue with this analogy but...)

I'm not sure how the NHTSA can just ignore that fact. The VW CR engine hasn't been out long enough to get a good long term sampling of pump failure rates. Given the manufacturer says is must be less than a 460 scar rating and US specification is 520 (and lubricity isn't labeled at the pump like octane is for gas, so there's no way for a consumer to know), I just don't see how that gets past an NHTSA engineering review. (Granted you could make the argument that it shouldn't have made it past internal VW reviews.)

I'm probably oversimplifying this, but if the pump by design can't handle US diesel and subsequent wear can lead to catastrophic failure (and catastrophic failures are happening), the how could the NHTSA write that off?
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Old February 14th, 2011, 08:53   #170
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Originally Posted by tsdevine View Post
I'd love to see how that goes in an engineering review. It's akin to selling a gasoline car advertised as requiring regular gas, then later finding out if you don't use >100 octane racing fuel it may cause serious damage to the engine. (I'm sure someone will have an issue with this analogy but...)
I'm not sure how the NHTSA can just ignore that fact. The VW CR engine hasn't been out long enough to get a good long term sampling of pump failure rates. Given the manufacturer says is must be less than a 460 scar rating and US specification is 520 (and lubricity isn't labeled at the pump like octane is for gas, so there's no way for a consumer to know), I just don't see how that gets past an NHTSA engineering review. (Granted you could make the argument that it shouldn't have made it past internal VW reviews.)
I'm probably oversimplifying this, but if the pump by design can't handle US diesel and subsequent wear can lead to catastrophic failure (and catastrophic failures are happening), the how could the NHTSA write that off?
The engineers at Bosch and VW aren't idiots. What's likely the issue here is that the pump that was re-engineered to be compatible with US fuel lubricity standards, however that engineering effort just didn't work out as well as it was intended to, hence the redesigns.

This theory would probably shed some light on why the pump that is installed in engines destined for the European market has a different part number.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 08:57   #171
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Originally Posted by dzcad90 View Post
The engineers at Bosch and VW aren't idiots. What's likely the issue here is that the pump that was re-engineered to be compatible with US fuel lubricity standards, however that engineering effort just didn't work out as well as it was intended to, hence the redesigns.
This theory would probably shed some light on why the pump that is installed in engines destined for the European market has a different part number.
True, but if you and I can figure that out.....given the number of revisions that have been made to the pump, you'd think the NHTSA review process would figure that out as well. I just find it hard to believe it would just sweep that under the carpet.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:00   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzcad90 View Post
The engineers at Bosch and VW aren't idiots. What's likely the issue here is that the pump that was re-engineered to be compatible with US fuel lubricity standards, however that engineering effort just didn't work out as well as it was intended to, hence the redesigns.

This theory would probably shed some light on why the pump that is installed in engines destined for the European market has a different part number.
Which makes me wonder if Euro spec HPFPs were built into a small number of US or North American bound TDI engines
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:02   #173
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When talking about the wear scar rating.. are we sure this is what applies to our pump? Being an international company, I can see BOSCH wants everyone at 400-460, but still designs a pump that more or less runs on our crappy fuel. I haven't seen any specifications for our pump (perhaps I should call a BOSCH distributor in the area). That has to be the difference between the non-US and the US pumps (perhaps it's non-North America and North America - I have no data from Canada).

Also... To me, the fuel pump in any car is a wear item. It will eventually fail. I've had fuel pumps in at least 3 cars fail (granted, these were my dad's cars, since I wasn't old enough to drive then). It happens. Why didn't VW design the fuel system such that a failure can't take out the entire system (granted screens won't help much with metal flakes)? Does anyone know if VW revised the design of the system in the MkVIs?
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:04   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzcad90 View Post
The engineers at Bosch and VW aren't idiots. What's likely the issue here is that the pump that was re-engineered to be compatible with US fuel lubricity standards, however that engineering effort just didn't work out as well as it was intended to, hence the redesigns.
This theory would probably shed some light on why the pump that is installed in engines destined for the European market has a different part number.
You said it just before I posted it... That's what I think too

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Which makes me wonder if Euro spec HPFPs were built into a small number of US or North American bound TDI engines
Not from my data so far.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:10   #175
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From an earlier post in this thread, I thought the difference in part numbers was only at VW and the Bosch part number was the same for both markets, did I understand correctly? If so, this can't be a mixed up production line issue. In any case, unless there was a really significant difference in cost per unit, I'd be surprised if Bosch/VW/Audi would carry two lines of different pumps, it costs money to do so...
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:25   #176
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The BOSCH part number is different between the two pumps (non-US, US). Same model number though.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:31   #177
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Spiegel.de. Germany's biggest magazine (akin to TIME here) mentioned the investigation on their website today.
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0...745232,00.html
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:40   #178
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Default But - What if ????

Here is a question... What if VW were to admit the problem and/or the government forced a recall of all of our cars today? Would VW have a solution? Is the current pump model the one we want or will there be several more upgrades until they get it right?

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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:43   #179
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Spiegel.de. Germany's biggest magazine (akin to TIME here) mentioned the investigation on their website today.
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0...745232,00.html

VW is still blaming gasoline-contaminated fuel as the only problem, even to their home audience. I'm not sure what previous 2010 fuel line re-call this article refers to at the end. . . my German's pretty rusty and the Google translator was not very precise.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 09:52   #180
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I'd be surprised if Bosch/VW/Audi would carry two lines of different pumps, it costs money to do so...
I don't see them producing two different spec pumps either. It's worth mentioning that quality control of ULSD in the U.S. probably wasn't all that great in the beginning and still might not be that great now; particularly with regard to wear scar rating. Europe probably has a leg up in Diesel fuel quality which could explain why pumps don't seem to fail in Europe as much.

In the early days of ULSD, it seems as if we had to rely on some "Bubba" at a fuel terminal to add enough precious lubricity additive to get our fuel to an unimpressive 520. A 460 rating is obviously better. A HPFP would probably operate for 30 years with 300 scar rating fuel. What wear scar rating does fuel have with no lubricity added at the terminal? 1000? 1500?
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