"Volkswagen’s Tennessee plant sets new standard for low wages"

I am a loyal VW owner. Currently own 8.

Live not far from VW's New Stanton plant that built the original Rabbit. VW left here due to the unions - and that's coming form a German company!

Been computerizing manufacturers since 1980, mostly small to medium.

And ANY discussion of US manufacturing and how unions(for non-skilled folks) have ruined it will turn political very quickly.

Not sure this is ths place. But I got a lot of real world experience on how all this effects owners, future expansion plans, etc.

Within the past year I also passed on buying a manufacturing plant for almost 2 mil with 14 employees that's been in business over 100 years. Due to EPA/DEP wanting to punish current owners (easiest to find and bleed) rather than those responsibly for things done 100 years ago when noone cared. Then Obamacare, labor relations board, taxes, etc.

Seriousely. I live in the rust and union belt. And folks here still aren't bright enough to figure out why no new jobs come here.

I love the area. But for years I had to travel to find decent work. I used to think the generation behind would figure things out locally. I have lost that hope.

I think we need term limits for everyone and a flat tax. Think about it. All the power and money of lobbyists would go away. Knowing everyone had term limits they might actually start doing things good for the country and not just for next election(see Ethanol for instance).

I'm done now.

But if anyone would like to discuss this stuff and wants to give me a link to where I'd be interested. Not so much in theories but cause/effect stuff I've witnessed about what does and doesn't work to add jobs.

I've experienced all this. Not some overly educated, never had a real job, met a payroll kinda guy. Which turns political again - Obama has none of these folks in key positions or advisors - he's got academics. When he does court business it's large business with union workers.

We have to pay for all those gov't and union folks. Some folks understand that (like me) , some folks don't - think DC and the voters that put them there.

And while we're talking DC - lets make their pension/healthcare and our Social Security and Medicare the SAME program. No wonder they don't care what really happens to them.

Please explain how the wages can actually be "low" when there are thousands of applicants for jobs at that pay? I live in Stamford, CT where the cost-of-living is much higher than Tennessee and there are jobs that only pay $12/hour. Again, looking for some tie-in with a forum about cars?

If they are having such a large number of applicants, the positions must be desirable. All it means is that VW probably picked a good location for that plant.

The laws of supply and demand work pretty well, most of the time. Artificially distorting them only creates the illusion of improvement for a little while ...

DogParkGuy said:

... looking for some tie-in with a forum about cars?

Click to expand...

Obviously it is a relevant topic to tdiclub- its where the new Passat is being built.

I think its sad that anyone has to try to make a living at $12/hour. I know people who are doing it and it is a rough road.

I understand that technology has allowed much of the build quality to be impervious to worker variability, but having "unskilled labor" build my car doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy.

The fact that they have a large number of applicants only highlights how bad things have become for the blue collar worker in the US.

tditom said:

Obviously it is a relevant topic to tdiclub- its where the new Passat is being built.

I think its sad that anyone has to try to make a living at $12/hour. I know people who are doing it and it is a rough road.

I understand that technology has allowed much of the build quality to be impervious to worker variability, but having "unskilled labor" build my car doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy.

The fact that they have a large number of applicants only highlights how bad things have become for the blue collar worker in the US.

Click to expand...

I agree with all this.

DogParkGuy said:

Please explain how the wages can actually be "low" when there are thousands of applicants for jobs at that pay?

Click to expand...

My suggestion is to look at who competed for what jobs in the past... like in England and the US. Kids, for instance.

When money is increasingly consolidated into fewer hands more and more people are forced to lower their standards. Also, when money flows out of the country the same thing can happen, I suppose particularly if there is trade imbalance due to things like artificially undervalued currency.

oxford_guy said:

Life is political.
The bottom line is that some politics are allowed and others aren't.

Click to expand...

Almost like the saying: There's not a war on drugs; just some drugs ?

rcracer said:

eek! ... Das Kapital @ work

Click to expand...

oxford_guy said:

You mean the lowering of the wages for VW autoworkers? The better Passat trim that China is getting?

Click to expand...

...and the Lupo we never got

oxford_guy said:

My suggestion is to look at who competed for what jobs in the past... like in England and the US. Kids, for instance.

.

Click to expand...

What does the past, England and kids have to do with the present labor market in Chattanooga, TN? What am I not getting??

It's a good thing we are talking about building cars instead of bridges:

"Rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure is a growing priority, with President Obama highlighting construction jobs as part of his $447 billion jobs plan.

The president visited the "functionally obsolete" Brent Spence Bridge in Ohio Thursday and called on lawmakers to do their part in fixing America's infrastructure.

"Mr. Boehner, Mr. McConnell, help us rebuild this bridge," he said in a speech. "Help us rebuild America. Help us put this country back to work."

In New York there is a $400 million renovation project on the Alexander Hamilton Bridge.

In California, there is a $7.2 billion project to rebuild the Bay Bridge connecting San Francisco and Oakland.

In Alaska, there is a proposal for a $190 million bridge project.

These projects sound like steps in the right direction, but much of the work is going to Chinese government-owned firms.

"When we subsidize jobs in China, we're not creating any wealth in the United States," said Scott Paul, executive director for the Alliance for American Manufacturing.

The renovation of the Alexander Hamilton Bridge in New York is being overseen by China Construction America, a subsidiary of the China State Construction Engineering Corporation. The company uses mostly U.S. labor, but many coveted skill jobs such as engineering and design work are Chinese. The profits will also go overseas."

Hey, we can't even get the folks at the VW plant (who can't get hired) a job to work on the bridge projects....really sad.

Well, it's not exactly Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"... people are getting health insurance for the entire family and vacation days every year, right?

manual_tranny said:

Well, it's not exactly Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"... people are getting health insurance for the entire family and vacation days every year, right?

Click to expand...

I'll bet the Aerotek folks making $12/hour don't have any health insurance or vacation days, unless they have a different arrangement from the Aerotek folks who work for us for some reason.

tditom said:

I'll bet the Aerotek folks making $12/hour don't have any health insurance or vacation days, unless they have a different arrangement from the Aerotek folks who work for us for some reason.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I guess I should have googled that first.

Yeah, I'd say that $12 an hour with zero insurance is low, even for a "lug nut installing lug nuts" job. Assembly line work has traditionally been a staple of American tradition and pride. It's hard to be proud when you can barely afford to live in a basement apartment by yourself.

On the other hand, people need jobs and need work now.

There must be a balance/compromise between what is fair for the employer (with safe profit margins and savings that allow for bad times) and what is fair for the employee (and not harmful to his/her family). Whenever I hear of companies like Aerotek, little red flags go up. It's just a way for a middle man to take his slice of the pie before the worker's salary is considered.

At State Farm Insurance in Bloomington, thousands of Accenture employees fill the offices. Accenture is paid $80 an employee, and employees start out under/around $20 an hour. State farm employees do the SAME jobs and get paid the full $80 an hour. This serves to put wealth into the Accenture company, while keeping the ENORMOUS State Farm Insurance Company out of "Monopoly" status with the government.

It's very clever, how big business find ways to do what they do.

Why do any of you give the troll any attention at all? When he can no longer raise hate and discontent, he will vanish like a stale fart in a fresh breeze.
Class warfare is a fools errand.

Bill

I am from a part of the US that has a very strained and deadly labor history. Look up what happened to workers in the Gastonia NC area about 100 years ago. Look at what happened in West VA that lead to the term "rednecks".

My point is that many have opinions and don't all know the history of this part of the country on how labor has been treated for the most of the industrial revolution( 150 years ). A lot of blood was shed in the south in fights between Companies and their hired thugs and their workers. And lower wages and poorer deadlier working conditions than in other parts of the US where labor was given rights through collective bargaining was the outcome of this fight. This history effects how labor is payed and treated to this day in the south, that fact can't be left out of any discussion like this.

For me the real question about the current pay scale at the new VW plant is what is $12 an hour is worth in that part of the country??? The answer is it depends, do you live in one of the bigger cities?? Or do you live in a poorer rural area where the cost of living is lower?? In some parts of the poorest parts of the south that wage is the same as $25 or more an hour in other parts of the US.

rotarykid said:

...For me the real question about the current pay scale at the new VW plant is what is $12 an hour is worth in that part of the country??? The answer is it depends, do you live in one of the bigger cities?? Or do you live in a poorer rural area where the cost of living is lower?? In some parts of the poorest parts of the south that wage is the same as $25 or more an hour in other parts of the US.

Click to expand...

How far would one need to commute from into the VW plant in Chatanooga in order for their $12/hr to be equivalent to $25/hr?

Still no health insurance. Is it unreasonable to expect to be able raise a family on a bluecollar job in the US anymore? Is it realistic to think you can raise a family with no health insurance?

I know there are many benefits for consumers when we have a global economy, but do you want to live around a bunch of people who are making third world wages? Overall, will your life be better if you can buy more stuff but you are stuck in an area where you are surrounded by the working poor?

I don't have any answers to this, but I don't see a good future if we don't have any means of raising families besides white-collar professions. Even that is being threatened by outsourcing engineering jobs to India and the like. Depressing...

tditom said:

How far would one need to commute from into the VW plant in Chatanooga in order for their $12/hr to be equivalent to $25/hr?

Still no health insurance. Is it unreasonable to expect to be able raise a family on a bluecollar job in the US anymore? Is it realistic to think you can raise a family with no health insurance?

I know there are many benefits for consumers when we have a global economy, but do you want to live around a bunch of people who are making third world wages? Overall, will your life be better if you can buy more stuff but you are stuck in an area where you are surrounded by the working poor?

I don't have any answers to this, but I don't see a good future if we don't have any means of raising families besides white-collar professions. Even that is being threatened by outsourcing engineering jobs to India and the like. Depressing...

Click to expand...

Is that a good living wage in the area around new VW plant?? I don't know the area that well so can't say.

I do know that northern Alabama in the appellations not that far away was at one time one of the poorest rural areas in the US.

I also do know neighboring NC and SC in the area where I have spent a lot of my life in. Western NC today has areas in the hills where real unemployment is approaching 50 %. You have to drive hours to Tenn, GA or SC or to Charlotte to find a real living wage job in many western NC counties today.

The next question is, can a person live on that wage anywhere??? Again where do you live???? What is rent/house payment in the area, utilities per month???

When I worked for $12-14 an hour in the region power bills were running $40-80 in the region, today that same power bill is $200-400+ a month. Rents were as low as $225-300 a month, today you are lucky if you can find a roof for under $1k a month in many areas in the south. Diesel and gas was around $1 a gal, today I paid $3.45 a gal.

Back then we had low and high wage industrial, textile and furniture jobs all over NC and SC. There were many well paying union and non-union industrial jobs in the region then building products shipped all over the world.

My home town had four textile mills during this time. Cannon mills in a nearby town made towels and sheets sold all over the world.

Oil filters for many name brands were made in Gastonia, the largest aluminum plant in the world was once in NC, Tires were made in western NC, Furniture was made in Lexington, High Point and Hickory NC to be sold all around the world. The two largest furniture shows in the world were once a year in Hickory and High Point NC.

Charlotte was once one the biggest banking centers in the country, some of the first gold strikes in the US were made in the Charlotte area. We had a mint that made coins at one time there.

Today almost nothing is made in the region, banking is in the process of leaving the region, NASCAR which is big money in my region is even hurting compared to what it was a few years back..........

We do still make beer in Edon and Winston-Salem, Tobacco and cotton are still king in parts of the state, and there is still some industrial work left. Power generation and maintenance of those facilities leads to many high paying industrial jobs but there isn't a lot of other things left. What is left today of high paying industrial jobs in the region is only a shadow of what it was when I was young. Those changes to the workforce in the region have had a real influence on wages and cost of living so must be figured in.

These changes lead me to my biggest question, for the current VW wage to equal what that $12-14 an hour bought me 3 decades ago what would I have to make in the region around the new VW plant??????? And if they paid that what would the new Passat they are building there cost????????

At the time I made that wage it was a pretty good wage for the region. But I had years of school and on the job training when I received that wage. Unskilled jobs paid as low as $3.35 an hour at the time if memory serves.

I'm not coming down one way or the other on the current wage at the new VW plant. Just trying to give a little prospective to the discussion from my own regional knowledge.

What I do hope is that those new jobs help reduce poverty in the area and bring other living wage business to region.........I know many parts of NC & SC could sure use some industrial jobs again to give people a way to make a living around their home. Instead of what is required today, you must either move or take a job if you can find one that you make nothing compared to what you once could.

And by the way, I worked in the shop that built parts of that VW plant in PA. I also made parts of the M&M candy plant in PA back then. I built things that were used in manufacturing plants all over the US. My region has a proud history of building things the world uses..........I hope some day to see that be the case once again.

According to salary.com, it would cost 1% more to live in Chatanooga than here in San Antonio. I know someone trying to make it at $12/hr here, and they are barely making it.

And the most probable option #2 on the table for vw for the new plant a couple of years back was just a "little farther south" in Mexico - and I can guarantee the wages wouldn't be $12 US an hour.....
I'm very happy they have set up a large assembly line in NA and hopefully this is will also trickle down to thousands of other manufacturing part suppliers (who will also be paying less that $12/hr....)
As long as people are lining up for jobs - they are helping us out IMO (alternative? Welfare?).

Still would like to see free health care for everyone (like up here in Canada).

d-man said:

They need to pay their employees a wage that is able to maintain a quality standard of living. If the employees are struggling to pay rent and make bill payments then it only hurts the region that is hiring them. I do not shop at walmart for this reason. If you know that these people are under paid what that means is they have no funds to purchase from your establishment. Its called cash flow and that is how our economy works. The more it flows to everyone the better everyone is.

Click to expand...

They need to pay their employees what they are willing to work for. This entitlement attitude that so many of you are displaying is part of what is killing America. So many people think they deserve something for nothing. They just want to roll out of bed in the morning and have everything handed to them. I'll admit, that sounds nice, but it's a bit unrealistic. These people obviously are happy for the work. $12/hr is only about $25k/yr, sufficient for a single person. If both spouses are working at similar rates, they're looking at closer to $50k/yr, very close to the national average household income rate.
Big deal if mommy can't stay home with the kids? Being a stay-at-home mom is NOT a right, it's a privilege that comes with some sacrifices. If my wife went back to work, I'd be elated. I can think of a thousand things I'd do with the extra money. But we've agreed that she is going to stay at home with our son, finish school, and then, possibly look at a career. We are able to do this because we drive older vehicles, we don't have cable TV, we rarely eat out, I do as much of my own work around the house and on our cars as possible, we don't buy stuff we really don't need. Sure we have some toys, but we've budgeted for them and put some real thought (and money) into our future because we realize that nobody else is going to do it for us!
I think it's great that VW is building cars in the US again. I think it's even better that they are paying a realistic wage that will help keep the end product price reasonable. I think it's on each and every one of those people working at the new factory to do what is right for them and decide if this job is just a stepping stone, or a career and to act accordingly.

Henry Ford said that his auto workers should be able to afford the cars they made. Then he gave them a pay hike to from $2.34 a day to $5 in order to do so.
He was also brought in the 8 hour hours per day and 5 days per week. The reason for this were business. Even auto assemblers have skills that are hard to replace. You can't make a good produce if the workers are unhappy with the employer,

Let me clue some of the "white collar" folks in to a bit of news. As manufacturing goes, so goes our nations in North America. This is a fact. Also to those who think their degree and no experience ensures they should make more then the "lug nut" assembling lug nuts you are sadly mistaken. You were sold a bill of goods by some university that got your money.

VW is taking advantage of the location of the plant. That is good business for a while. What you don't know is there is another very large manufacturing concern in that town that employs both skilled and non skilled workers. The glut of low payed workers will end at some point, and the piper will have to be paid.

All this is said not to take either side of the argument. I just read a lot of smug nonsense on both sides that I believe needed a little countering.

bcbsox said:

... If both spouses are working at similar rates, they're looking at closer to $50k/yr, very close to the national average household income rate.
Big deal if mommy can't stay home with the kids? Being a stay-at-home mom is NOT a right, it's a privilege that comes with some sacrifices. If my wife went back to work, I'd be elated. I can think of a thousand things I'd do with the extra money. But we've agreed that she is going to stay at home with our son, finish school, and then, possibly look at a career.....

Click to expand...

I'm not saying that a stay-at-home parent is a right- just that it may be better for our society in the long run.

I don't think we as a society have enough data to understand the long term effects of both parents needing to work, institutionalized childcare, etc. but it is a significant change from the thousands of years previous. A daycare-giver is not capable of loving a child as much as a parent in most cases. Spending those early formative years with someone other than a parent may have effects we don't understand yet.

Kudos to you and your wife for deciding on relatively short-term financial sacrafice by her staying at home with your youngster.

If they were assembling $10,000 cars - could you afford one on $12/hr?
(honest question). Would the Henry ford argument go out the window if they could?

NickBeek said:

Let me clue some of the "white collar" folks in to a bit of news. As manufacturing goes, so goes our nations in North America. This is a fact. Also to those who think their degree and no experience ensures they should make more then the "lug nut" assembling lug nuts you are sadly mistaken. You were sold a bill of goods by some university that got your money.

VW is taking advantage of the location of the plant. That is good business for a while. What you don't know is there is another very large manufacturing concern in that town that employs both skilled and non skilled workers. The glut of low payed workers will end at some point, and the piper will have to be paid.

All this is said not to take either side of the argument. I just read a lot of smug nonsense on both sides that I believe needed a little countering.

Click to expand...

Would you like to point out the "smug nonsense", rather than taking stabs in the dark?

I've got news for you: assembly line workers will NEVER deserve the same pay as the guys who managed to get through calculus, organic chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, etc, etc...

There was an incident in Winnipeg a few years ago where a sewage transfer station got flooded with sewage when the flanges conecting two 12 inch pipes seperated. A commercial diver had to descend into the stuff and reassemble the pipes in total darkness.

I don't know what that diver was paid, but it was more than the hourly rate of a city engineer. To get an idea, I know a another commercial diver who charged $1000 just to go to the bottom of a sewage lagoon just to retrieve a dropped tool.

Being paid is not all about smarts .... it is as much about labour supply, skills, and knowledge.

NickBeek said:

Let me clue some of the "white collar" folks in to a bit of news. As manufacturing goes, so goes our nations in North America. This is a fact. Also to those who think their degree and no experience ensures they should make more then the "lug nut" assembling lug nuts you are sadly mistaken. You were sold a bill of goods by some university that got your money.

VW is taking advantage of the location of the plant. That is good business for a while. What you don't know is there is another very large manufacturing concern in that town that employs both skilled and non skilled workers. The glut of low payed workers will end at some point, and the piper will have to be paid.

All this is said not to take either side of the argument. I just read a lot of smug nonsense on both sides that I believe needed a little countering.

Click to expand...

Take a guess based on my posts in this thread, am I white collar, or blue collar? I bet you're wrong.

Jack Frost said:

There was an incident in Winnipeg a few years ago where a sewage transfer station got flooded with sewage when the flanges conecting two 12 inch pipes seperated. A commercial diver had to descend into the stuff and reassemble the pipes in total darkness.

I don't know what that diver was paid, but it was more than the hourly rate of a city engineer. To get an idea, I know a another commercial diver who charged $1000 just to go to the bottom of a sewage lagoon just to retrieve a dropped tool.

Being paid is not all about smarts .... it is as much about labour supply, skills, and knowledge.

Click to expand...

True, when you have a job that literally anyone could do, 12.00 an hour seems pretty good. Lets remember thats starting salary. It is not your employers job to make sure you can support your family, thats your job.

I agree with many of your statements except that assembly is work that anyone can do. That is simply not true. There are special demands placed upon these workers that make the job something not suited for anyone.

I am not an assembly worker, but I hope that my car was made by an employer who did not regard them as disposable economic units. I imagine they must also be reliable and consistent and interested in applying quality to their work. Car manufacturing takes all type; engineers, managers, accountants, lawyers, marketing, assembers, took makers, saleman etc, etc. There is no rooms for apes in the business. There is no reason to turn the clock back to the days before Henry Ford.

Jack Frost said:

Being paid is not all about smarts .... it is as much about labor supply, skills, and knowledge.

Click to expand...

terrylwc said:

It is not your employers job to make sure you can support your family, thats your job.

Click to expand...

Two very good comments.

Jack Frost said:

I agree with many of your statements except that assembly is work that anyone can do. That is simply not true. There are special demands placed upon these workers that make the job something not suited for anyone.

I am not an assembly worker, but I hope that my car was made by an employer who did not regard them as disposable economic units. I imagine they must also be reliable and consistent and interested in applying quality to their work. Car manufacturing takes all type; engineers, managers, accountants, lawyers, marketing, assembers, took makers, saleman etc, etc. There is no rooms for apes in the business. There is no reason to turn the clock back to the days before Henry Ford.

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree. Contributions of people at all levels of an organization should be appreciated and respected.

Recall that corporate excesses and abuse of laborers led to the establishment of unions, then over time the pendulum swung the other way and the union workers were over-paid and an "entitlement" attitude led to decreases in productivity and quality. This has led to consumers looking for vehicles built outside our continent for best value, and ultimately the loss of manufacturing jobs on the continent. If we could only find a good balance! I wish I had the answers...