GTC1444VZ in an ALH

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Before I put it in the car I tried out my tial mvs clone, loaded with real tial springs (all of them it'll fit in the strongest tension they offer) it cracks open with 40 PSI applied to the bottom of the poppet valve. Nothing going on in the diaphragm chamber. This is what is killing your transient. With your setup taken into mind (vacuum under the diaphragm, dome pressure direct to intake, and peaking out at 50 PSI EMP (if that's where it is opening)) yours is likely cracking much lower, like 20 PSI EMP with only the vacuum in the lower diaphragm chamber.
Load it up with all the springs you can find and it'll act a lot nicer. Only take the last two screws out of the cap with it compressed in the vise. :p I've thought about putting a valvespring in mine originally, but a friend had a bunch of spring sets laying around from his high dollar automobilieo.
Oh right, and hooking N75 vacuum to the underside of the diaphragm is a somewhat common thing on here, but it is not something I'd do. The valve guide is usually a very loose fit, so a lot of exhaust vents into there, no bueno for your expensive n75, and likely more leakage than the valve can flow to keep your VNT actuator fully actuated.
Mine's leakage is even worse since the top of the poppet valve is interstage exhaust pressure (but I've got IMP in the bottom and interstage boost in the dome).
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Thanks [486] - I'll give the springs a try. The springs were in another state when I put the wastegate on so will have to try that out now that the springs and car are together :).

I did check the lower diaphragm chamber for soot after ~100 miles and there were faint traces of it near the stem. The stem fits pretty tight (way less than 0.001" clearance), but I do see your point and will keep an eye on it.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I did check the lower diaphragm chamber for soot after ~100 miles and there were faint traces of it near the stem. The stem fits pretty tight (way less than 0.001" clearance), but I do see your point and will keep an eye on it.
My 'gate is chinese, so they probably designed in a bunch of clearance so that they don't have to hold tolerance as well. :p
Pressed the thing out and bored a ring midway inside it, then drilled holes from that ring to the outside, to vent the gasses to atmosphere rather than to the intake. The whole area in where it's mounted is black from that leakage. Probably should have just made a tighter fitting guide and pressed that in, now that I think of it.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
I haven't followed or read this entire thread, so sorry if this has been discussed. Without the VNT lever being allowed to pull the VNT control arm to the stop you are giving up the key spooling/tip-in region of the mechanism's dynamic control range. It seems to me this is greatly negating the greatest benefit of your turbo choice.

Have you looked into shortening the VNT control arm like we have to do with the GTB turbos?
Fix Until Broke said:
A5INKY - You're absolutely correct, however this turbo is small enough that even with the vanes wide open (no actuator at all, it spools almost identically to a well tunes 17/22. The issue is a geometry related, not stroke length related. The actuator is barely perpendicular to the arm when it's wide open and flattens out the more you close the vanes so it gets to the point where it just can't move any farther. Posts 2 & 3 show all this so you don't have to read the whole thread.
So, what A5INKY said has been rolling around in the back of my mind for a while - more on that in a minute...

Jeff and I worked on the tune at TDIFest and in short we made the N75 map "steeper" so it opens up the vanes at higher RPM/Fueling more than it did before. The goal was to reduce EMP's and get more RPM out of it without compromising transient response. I had the actuator adjusted to start closing the vanes at ~7inHg.

We were generally successful at lowering EMP's without losing any bottom end response, however the more I drove it the more I realized that we made the right changes, but it probably needed some more fine tuning as the smoke on tip in was worse than before (13:1 was pretty easy to achieve). Not having the knowledge or tools to adjust the tune myself I figured that adjusting the actuator would be equivalent to moving that whole map up/down and I could at least experiment a bit. I couldn't change the slope of it or any individual points/areas, but I could offset it.

Now, back to A5INKY's comment. I decided to make a big change in the actuator adjustment and shortened it as much as it would go. I was able to get the actuator arm really close to the stop screw (0.25mm/0.010") at ~20inHg and the actuator moved with any vacuum applied.

Took it for a test drive and EMP's flew to 50+ PSI in 1st gear at relatively low RPM's (2000 ish), however in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc gears the EMP's spiked to ~45 psi upon spool up (1400 RPM), boost to ~20psi, 20:1 AFR and then the N75 went to zero, EMP's came down to match boost and it reved out to ~3500 RPM before the EMP's got back up to 50 PSI.

As I type this out I realize that I should probably have a graph or at least a video of my dash to go along with this - we'll get that done.

Long and short of this is that I think A5INKY was right, the actuator travel was not enough to fully stroke the vanes. By shortening the actuator a lot (5+ turns), I was able to significantly improve the transient response of the system through significantly increased EMP's during spool up. This makes sense once you think about it - more differential pressure across the turbine, the faster it will accelerate. This also reduced smoke since there was more air sooner and, since we steepened the N75 map as mentioned above, the vanes were essentially wide open* once the turbo spooled up which reduced EMP's

*This turbo will spool on it's own at higher RPM's, however at lower RPM's (below 2000) with the vanes wide open it won't spool, or will be really slow to spool. By adjusting the actuator really short, when there's no N75 command the vanes are somewhat shut. So with the setup I have, when I adjust the actuator it ends up adjusting either or both the beginning and end of vane travel. As I adjusted the actuator longer and longer, the spool up didn't change much because there is still no pre-load, but the 2000 RPM EMP's, Boost and AFR's all dropped with each adjustment longer of the actuator. Since the actuator adjustment moves the whole "map" and only a portion of the vane travel for this turbo, it's a compromise.

Most of this rambling is me keeping notes of what I've done and what happened. The other takeaways from this are that it takes a lot of work to properly setup/tune a turbo to perform it's best where you want it to (always a compromise) and you can significantly improve transient response by increasing EMP's during spool up, but it's best done in the mapping. The increased EMP's don't seem to negatively effect performance, or at least the gains from spool up and airflow outweigh the negatives of increased EMP's for a net advantage.
 

GOFAST

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Location
nederland
TDI
vento afn
nice set up.
still I think a VNT as hi pressure turbo makes thinks really complicated.
but this sounds like a step closer to a better setting.
 

A5INKY

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
Cool, thanks for sharing your development process.

To get full VNT travel out of the popular GTB (1756, 2056, 2260) turbos requires taking them apart and replacing the VNT control arm with a shorter VNT15/17 one. It is a little fiddly to do (some careful lay out and welding of the the arm) but it allows for full VNT control range when converting to a vacuum actuator.

Doing a similar operation on your 1444 and then a tune adjustment should remove some of the "compromise" you are weighing. I learned how important turbo set-up is when I did my GTB years ago. Get the turbo right and the tune becomes much easier to nail down. Without the hardware just right, tuning is always much more of a challenge.
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
the lever is a little longer IIRC
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
The stock actuator is very close to the axle as can be seen in the below photo with the suspension in full droop and the position sensor on the actuator removed.

I've got the actuator from a VNT 15/17 on there (visually almost identical), however it's clocked toward the back of the car to clear the axle. This causes a couple issues.

1) The travel is a bit short overall
2) The geometry is such that it starts out vanes open with a ~120 degree angle between the actuator rod and vane lever and increases to ~150 degrees as it approaches the stop screw so it's at a mechanical/geometry disadvantage that gets worse as the vanes close. See Post 86 for pictures

 

A5INKY

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
Of course the ideal is to have the actuator shaft perpendicular to the VNT control lever at half travel. With your way less than ideal geometry I can see it being difficult to tune. Maybe time for a Whitbread style remote actuator set-up? Simple is almost always better IMO but with your axle clearance issue...
 

A5INKY

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
no issue if stock actuator is used.
Thought so but wasn't sure. I have a GTC1549 on the shelf that is OE vacuum actuated.

Rub87, do you know if there is a bottom mount 8V bottom-mount manifold available for the GTC 1549? Info if so?

Holding on to the GTC as I think it will be perfect as a single when I drop a 1.9 TDI in my T4 van (soon I hope). Looking for super strong bottom end but not needing it to rev that high considering the application. Thinking that turbo with 11mm IP and something around a DLC 764 nozzle will be perfect.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
what do you call available? this turbo is 184 unit I reckon? only existed on 16v top mount. ideally u just cut and weld. I made one turbo like this for a 1.9 PD and it works just fine. nonetheless I don't like the bottom end of this turbo too much. its pretty dead below 2k and then hits hard.

maybe try the BMW BB unit, has higer trim comp wheel which should be better at low rpm
 

Vekke

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Location
Finland
TDI
Audi A8 with 1.2 TDI VW Lupo 3L --> 2L (retired)
FUB: What kind of boost levels are you running your 1444vz and what RPMs does the EMP start to get too high so you will lower the boost requests?


I just got mine installed to 1.4 TDI and this wakes pretty early even on this 1.4 liter engine. How did your Rub wake?

1500rpm=0,6bar
1600rpm=0,8bar
1700rpm=0,9bar
1800rpm=1,2 bar
1900rpm=1,3bar
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Vekke - you ask a simple question, but I'm afraid the answer is not so simple...

Short answers are in post 4 (video) and 24 (EMP:IMP), but the actuator and VNT mechanism on this turbo is a bit unique compared to the VNT15 or 17/22 that I've run before. With the 1444, the vanes will open very wide - so much so that the wastegate on my compound setup is locked shut.

If you read through the earlier posts in this thread, I did play with a wastegate and lowering EMP's wasn't successful :).

If I had a few hundred more hours and the knowledge to modify the software, I'm confident that I could "optimize" this setup more than I already have, but as my daily driver and lack of time/knowledge I make small changes when I can and learn as much from them as possible.

I used to "worry" about high EMP's and tried to lower them, but have since come to the realization that if EMP's are 1.5:1 with boost, don' t worry about it - it likes to run with that differential pressure, does not seem to have any EGT or MPG effects and any reduction in EMP's caused a similar reduction in transient response performance.

Sorry my answer isn't very cohesive - I've had the compounds on it for a couple years now so my memory is fading a bit on the specific details :).
 

tchouki85

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
france
TDI
lupo,golf iv,polo
FUB: What kind of boost levels are you running your 1444vz and what RPMs does the EMP start to get too high so you will lower the boost requests?


I just got mine installed to 1.4 TDI and this wakes pretty early even on this 1.4 liter engine. How did your Rub wake?

1500rpm=0,6bar
1600rpm=0,8bar
1700rpm=0,9bar
1800rpm=1,2 bar
1900rpm=1,3bar
is it possible to see your assembly because I have this turbo waiting at home but I still have not installed it
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
tchouki85 - are you able to see any of the pictures at the beginning of this thread?

I don't have much else to show besides those - the turbo is currently in a compound setup with an HE221.

Glad to help, just not sure what you're looking for.
 
Top