VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Lifter noise on cold startup.
- Thread starter DieselBrownie
- Start date
DieselBrownie
Active member
I'll give VW a little credit, they never told me my collapsing lifter was normal.
The whole repair is nice and documented. If they made the repairs outside of VW's recommendations (i.e. reusing bolts, etc) and there's a failure, it'll get taken care of. Been there, dealt with that, won't be losing any sleep.
I'll keep you posted.
tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
So...you'll have them document that they reused stretch bolts?
DieselBrownie
Active member
As far a documentation goes, if it's not written down, it didn't happen. It's the same when I write a pt. report. Good, bad, or otherwise, it had better be documented. If you're called to court (or in this case, likely an arbitrator) the only leg you really have to stand on is what's been documented, and even if they did replaced those bolts and forgot to charge them to the ticket (not likely,) so long as it's not on that document, it didn't happen.
Besides, it'd be much cheaper for them to just fix my car than deal with a fight that I have both the time and money to wage, not to mention I've bought 3 cars from them, and I'll likely buy more in the future as I've always had a great experience with them. So again, I'm not terribly worried about it if a problem does arise.
I AM curious though, does anyone have access to a manual where it actually states to replace these bolts upon R&R? If that does exist, I'll just print it out and drop the car back off.
Rico567
Top Post Dawg
My understanding is that if a bolt is a stretch bolt, it's a single-use part, and if it's taken out for any reason, that bolt is replaced with a new one.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
It should be outlined in the ERWIN timing belt change procedure.
PaulB
Veteran Member
Sounds like fun.
What I want to know is, what happens if you don't get it fixed? Is it eventually going to damage the engine? I don't give a **** about noises that happen during a couple minutes of warmup, as long as it's not hurting anything. I have noticed a "tappet" noise myself a couple of times.
DieselBrownie
Active member
A little followup, as promised.
I downloaded the manuals for my car from erwin the other night (thanks for the tip, VeeDubTDI) and reviewed the whole repair for myself, in search of TTY bolts and misc items involved in this repair that should have been replaced (thanks, Oilhammer.) Upon identifying the components, and a lengthy conversation with the service manager later, my car is returning tomorrow evening for fastener replacements and a new set of injector washers/seals (due to having to re-torque the injectors.) The Service Manager was very apologetic, has set me up with another car to drive (again,) and went step by step through the manual with the tech, to insure all of the disposable parts reused will be replaced. From what I gathered, this was essentially the cam sprocket bolts, the injector hold down bolts, and obviously a new set of injector seals/washers due to the re-torque. The manager said the tech didn't have to dismount the engine for the repair, so those bolts should still be intact.
I hate that it takes this sort of activism to ensure a proper repair on your car from what's supposed to be the factory's representatives, but I suppose it's for the same reasons that this forum exists, and all you helpful folks are on it!
In other news, my valvetrain has been perfectly quiet, every single start. For that, I'm glad I got the initial repair done, despite this hassle. Thanks for you guy's advice on this, and I hope that this thread will facilitate an expedient and proper repair for anyone else seeking to have this issue fixed.
Edit: Btw, I plan on marking the offending fasteners, and requesting to see them after they've been replaced. Fool me once, shame on you...)
I downloaded the manuals for my car from erwin the other night (thanks for the tip, VeeDubTDI) and reviewed the whole repair for myself, in search of TTY bolts and misc items involved in this repair that should have been replaced (thanks, Oilhammer.) Upon identifying the components, and a lengthy conversation with the service manager later, my car is returning tomorrow evening for fastener replacements and a new set of injector washers/seals (due to having to re-torque the injectors.) The Service Manager was very apologetic, has set me up with another car to drive (again,) and went step by step through the manual with the tech, to insure all of the disposable parts reused will be replaced. From what I gathered, this was essentially the cam sprocket bolts, the injector hold down bolts, and obviously a new set of injector seals/washers due to the re-torque. The manager said the tech didn't have to dismount the engine for the repair, so those bolts should still be intact.
I hate that it takes this sort of activism to ensure a proper repair on your car from what's supposed to be the factory's representatives, but I suppose it's for the same reasons that this forum exists, and all you helpful folks are on it!
In other news, my valvetrain has been perfectly quiet, every single start. For that, I'm glad I got the initial repair done, despite this hassle. Thanks for you guy's advice on this, and I hope that this thread will facilitate an expedient and proper repair for anyone else seeking to have this issue fixed.
Edit: Btw, I plan on marking the offending fasteners, and requesting to see them after they've been replaced. Fool me once, shame on you...)
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DieselBrownie
Active member
I initially wrote this noise off myself, back when it would pump itself up rather quickly. What was getting my attention, was that the length of time it was taking to pump up was growing, and the frequency of it sounding like it was fully collapsed was increasing. The example I gave in the video was not the loudest I had ever heard it, either. It went from doing this very subtly once in a while, to increasingly louder, every cold start. Whether it could or could not have made this noise throughout it's lifetime without consequences was a bet I was less and less willing to take as the problem seemed to grow.
Despite the hassle, I'm glad to have it fixed and documented while it's still within warranty. I really love this car, and was a bit disappointed that it was having internal engine issues, after having really good luck with my previous Jetta.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
That is great news! Glad they are (finally) taking care of you properly.
Unfortunately, your experience is a textbook example of why many people on here steer clear of the dealers. If you don't know how to do the repair, they probably don't either.
Unfortunately, your experience is a textbook example of why many people on here steer clear of the dealers. If you don't know how to do the repair, they probably don't either.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
And this is why I take the position I do. Sure, an HLA noise during warm up isn't ideal, and even if it is somewhat common it doesn't make it "right", but at what cost does a remedy come? If the "repair" is done half-assed, then does it really count?
I see day in and day out dealer service department butchery, and am so sick of it some days I feel I could throw puppies into a meat grinder . Seriously, I think these M&P assclowns would be better off leaving an original timing belt in place and letting the owner take their chances running it well beyond the specified interval than having some hack attempt the job and do it all wrong.
I have three TDIs in the shop today: a 200k mile BEW that is getting a timing belt job redone (M&P), a 200k mile BRM that got a new cam and lifters, which also revealed a past M&P job in addition to the wrong oil (that they STILL continue to push, at 5k intervals no less!), and a 125k mile CBEA car that I am still in the process of trying to get everything back in place after a dealer turbo replacement gone awry. 3 cars, all 3 previously messed up by the EXACT SAME DEALER.
I see day in and day out dealer service department butchery, and am so sick of it some days I feel I could throw puppies into a meat grinder
. Seriously, I think these M&P assclowns would be better off leaving an original timing belt in place and letting the owner take their chances running it well beyond the specified interval than having some hack attempt the job and do it all wrong.I have three TDIs in the shop today: a 200k mile BEW that is getting a timing belt job redone (M&P), a 200k mile BRM that got a new cam and lifters, which also revealed a past M&P job in addition to the wrong oil (that they STILL continue to push, at 5k intervals no less!), and a 125k mile CBEA car that I am still in the process of trying to get everything back in place after a dealer turbo replacement gone awry. 3 cars, all 3 previously messed up by the EXACT SAME DEALER.
DieselBrownie
Active member
Sort of like when Walmart decided to start the quick-lube department?I see day in and day out dealer service department butchery, and am so sick of it some days I feel I could throw puppies into a meat grinder
I blame the flat-rate system. What incentive is there to do the job right, as opposed to "good enough that it won't re-check anytime soon?"
Add that to the growing pressure of bad service management practices, corporate takeover of dealerships, manufactures randomly trimming down labor op times to claim they "paid out less in warranty claims this year," despite the quality of the product not improving, service advisers that were never mechanics with unrealistic expectations, etc.... I can't imagine why good people don't stay at dealerships.
I spent the last 4 of my mechanic years in a fleet, and it was downright luxurious to be allowed to do my job well, without the above having any influence on my paycheck.
So can someone explain to me the difference between normal cold diesel start up noise and a bad lifter ?? How should the passat TDI sound at cold start up? Should it be different than when warm or no?
This is my first vw and my first diesel
This is my first vw and my first diesel
well, fast forward to this morning. Seems Its my turn for the collapsed lifter! Backed out, Ran back inside to grab my phone, and herd this:
Link edited
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPICkoXTOAs
Mileage 9,500
Garage temperature: 50F
Oil: factory oil, still on full mark
Problems prior: Zero
ironically today I drove the wife to work so I could swing past the dealer for its first oil change, They advised not to push the panic button yet and give the fresh LL03 oil a chance.
But iv been building engines for a really long time and that's a dry lifter for sure. Noise went away once warm
Link edited
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPICkoXTOAs
Mileage 9,500
Garage temperature: 50F
Oil: factory oil, still on full mark
Problems prior: Zero
ironically today I drove the wife to work so I could swing past the dealer for its first oil change, They advised not to push the panic button yet and give the fresh LL03 oil a chance.
But iv been building engines for a really long time and that's a dry lifter for sure. Noise went away once warm
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tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
How long did that take? Are you hearing the noise at every cold start-up?
I know for sure that my engine at 36k is noisier at start-up than when new. I'm not talking "diesel" rattle, just more noise...can't really explain it it just feels loose, unlike my 70k mile JSW. My wife, who drives the car every day, even asked me at one point if there was something wrong with the engine. If SHE noticed it, then there must have been a start or two that were noisier than usual.
superchud
Well-known member
Could be due to me being logged in as the author, try this one:
Very noticeable at 0.40 second mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPICkoXTOAs
Very noticeable at 0.40 second mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPICkoXTOAs
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superchud
Well-known member
That works now. Yeah, that is noticeable. Still under warranty?
Salsaman06
Veteran Member
And here is the recording of mine making similar noise but not quite as loud as jrm's. Took this video about 2 weeks ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7umyisssU&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7umyisssU&feature=youtu.be
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Ramairetransam
Veteran Member
2012 passat makes tick sound on cold start up
It has now done it to me two times in a row on cold start ups , i will get a vid tomorrow am and see if i can capture it , never noticed it before , 33k on it .
It has now done it to me two times in a row on cold start ups , i will get a vid tomorrow am and see if i can capture it , never noticed it before , 33k on it .
nord
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
- Location
- Southern Tier NY
- TDI
- All turned back to VW. Now a 2017 Hundai Tuscon. Not a single squalk in 10k miles.
Lifter not pumping up. (Actually leaking down, then taking a brief time to pump up.) Shades of the old Chrysler Slant Six. Very likely not serious. All the same it shouldn't be making this noise.
With the old six we just learned to accept the racket. With that engine putting out so little horsepower the noise assured us that something was actually stirring under the hood. Otherwise there may have been a question. 95 hp out of 225 cubic inches as I remember pushing a hunk of metal and rust heavier than your Passat. Those were the days!
With a new TDI I wouldn't be quite so charitable. If your particular tech is paid by fixed rate, then I might understand why he's not excited. Lifter replacement means cam removal... Which means timing belt removal. The coming apart isn't a big deal. Going back together is! There's no room for error. And then the matter of the time involved to do the procedure correctly.
With the old six we just learned to accept the racket. With that engine putting out so little horsepower the noise assured us that something was actually stirring under the hood. Otherwise there may have been a question. 95 hp out of 225 cubic inches as I remember pushing a hunk of metal and rust heavier than your Passat. Those were the days!
With a new TDI I wouldn't be quite so charitable. If your particular tech is paid by fixed rate, then I might understand why he's not excited. Lifter replacement means cam removal... Which means timing belt removal. The coming apart isn't a big deal. Going back together is! There's no room for error. And then the matter of the time involved to do the procedure correctly.
I agree, most likely shutting down with the effected lifter (and valve) open making the leak down happen, 5w30 oil should pump them back up in seconds though. FYI mine hasn't done it since, iv woke up at 5am to watch the wife back out every day- all good for now!
We had a Dodge 360ci in our camper van- it also took forever to pump the tappets up.
We had a Dodge 360ci in our camper van- it also took forever to pump the tappets up.
Driver_found
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2005
- Location
- Phila
- TDI
- Former MKV Jetta TDI 5M, Former 2013 Passat TDI SE 6M, 2015 Mazda 6 Touring 6m
Add me to the list of people with the noise. Sounds very clackity when cold. Especially under load. After a few mins, the noise goes away. At 48k miles now. Almost time for an oil change anyway.
Wonder if anyone who has an oil pan heating system also has the noise?
Will check with the dealer after the new year.
2013 Passat TDI 6m
Wonder if anyone who has an oil pan heating system also has the noise?
Will check with the dealer after the new year.
2013 Passat TDI 6m
I don'r have one yet after 20,000. I just did video below, cold start. I think you have excessive noise. Try to replace oil or add BG MOA Engine Oil Additive, but I'm not sure ash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T5UD_rLzfs&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T5UD_rLzfs&feature=youtu.be
tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
Could a guru please address how the "1st oil change" could have changed the lifter noise? Is the Castrol 5-30 thicker than the so-called "break-in" oil?