17/22 PD TDTuning.com dyno

Farfromovin said:

The most surprising thing on the highway is when you're doing 80+ and roll into it in 6th. Couple seconds go by and the speed at that point is license revoking territory. It's effortless, and waaaay to fast for a 40 mpg car.

Darkhorse- Glad to see Charlie is getting the tuning down. I'm surprised your EGT's don't get up there more. If you push more fuel it's too smoky? Weird... You got an FMIC?

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He's pulled the fuel back a little to reduce smoke. No I have a Eurojet side mount with entry ducting & a vented fender liner. I know what you mean by waaaay to fast for a 40 mpg car.

darkhorse said:

He's pulled the fuel back a little to reduce smoke. No I have a Eurojet side mount with entry ducting & a vented fender liner. I know what you mean by waaaay to fast for a 40 mpg car.

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I'd be interested in your numbers too. From what I've seen so far, def not sold on R783s.

dieselpower04 said:

I'd be interested in your numbers too. From what I've seen so far, def not sold on R783s.

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I would recommend a colt cam 10 times over the R783's for small turbo's like myself, you, and darkhorse are using. The nozzles, plus balancing, plus one time use bolts, plus mandatory remapping of the ECU are just too expensive for the gains on the small turbo. The Colt cam dishes up several advantages:
1) Smoother drivability
2) Power everywhere (about 10whp and 25 ft*lbs)
3) Enhanced longevity over OE design (theorized, but yet to be proven)

I installed the nozzles because my PD150 units were safely maxed on my old setup and I had zero smoke, I mean less than a tuned gasser smoke I think I'd install a big turbo (GTB2260 or larger) before I'd recommend R783's if I had to do it over again. Now I'm stuck waiting on my 17/22 to just die already LOL It just keeps spinning along though...

Just my .02

I'm sure the 783's on PD 150's will deliver more fuel than our turbos can burn. That's fine with me. It allows for a shorter injection event which in turn reduces EGT's. I put a "street" cam in my Cummins instead of going to a bigger turbo. What I noticed in that situation was a slightly faster spool.

dieselpower04 said:

I'd be interested in your numbers too. From what I've seen so far, def not sold on R783s.

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You wouldn't gain very much over your 150's as you are probably about maxed out on how much fuel you can burn already. I bought my PD 150's used & didn't know much about the condition of the nozzles & since I wanted calibration & balancing too, I opted for the better nozzles. The custom manifolds for bigger turbos make that option pretty expensive too. I'd go for the cam long before the custom turbo option. I like my K3B. It was a long wait but I'd guess it's as much better than the 17/22 as that is over the stock 17.

darkhorse said:

I like my K3B. It was a long wait but I'd guess it's as much better than the 17/22 as that is over the stock 17.

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I don't think I've heard such misinformation here since, shoot, I can't even remember By your statement, you now have the capability from your turbo to be putting down 235-245 whp. Best of luck

I'd love to see an EVEN more capable bolt on hybrid than the 17/22, but it's just not out there on paper at least. The 1856 back in the day was quite capable as shown on Ben's car, but it's in the same boat as the 17/22 if you ask me. What's a couple horse among friends right?

I've been trying to test some new designs of a bolt on hybrid from ST that he says will blow the 17/22 out of the water. I got my 17/22 baseline dyno done, we'll see what the future holds...

Farfromovin said:

I don't think I've heard such misinformation here since, shoot, I can't even remember ....we'll see what the future holds...

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I'm not sure what you mean by misinformation. The exhaust turbine is a bit larger & the compressor is too. It's an improvement over the ones ST built for KERMA a few years ago. It will be interesting to see how their new ones fare.

Farfromovin said:

I don't think I've heard such misinformation here since, shoot, I can't even remember By your statement, you now have the capability from your turbo to be putting down 235-245 whp. Best of luck

I'd love to see an EVEN more capable bolt on hybrid than the 17/22, but it's just not out there on paper at least. The 1856 back in the day was quite capable as shown on Ben's car, but it's in the same boat as the 17/22 if you ask me. What's a couple horse among friends right?

I've been trying to test some new designs of a bolt on hybrid from ST that he says will blow the 17/22 out of the water. I got my 17/22 baseline dyno done, we'll see what the future holds...

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My experience thus far with tuning the newer ST1852VG's has been that it would seem turbine flow is much improved. I'd really like to see some hard data on the subject though.

darkhorse said:

I'm not sure what you mean by misinformation. The exhaust turbine is a bit larger & the compressor is too. It's an improvement over the ones ST built for KERMA a few years ago. It will be interesting to see how their new ones fare.

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A larger turbine wheel does you little good if you still have the same vanes. All you accomplish is moving the restriction elsewhere.

vwmikel said:

A larger turbine wheel does you little good if you still have the same vanes. All you accomplish is moving the restriction elsewhere. I can't say with complete certainty that is the case with the newer Kerma turbos, but the rumor mill says they're the same as the old ST 1856's. How true that is can only be verified by a few.

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The builder claims to be using a new turbine wheel.

All this is quite entertaining, but I just don't see small hybrids running in the 230+ whp range on our rot gut fuel here in NA. I wish they would, that would mean less of an expense for me to upgrade, compared with a dedicated manifold separate turbo...

Just sent an email to Nick to see what he's got.

darkhorse said:

The builder claims to be using a new turbine wheel.

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I don't doubt that it is a new turbine wheel. What I'm in the dark about is what vane assembly they use. It's not just the diameter of the vane ring that affect flow, but also the width and thus the tip height on the inducer.

darkhorse said:

I like my K3B. It was a long wait but I'd guess it's as much better than the 17/22 as that is over the stock 17.

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I guess we will see when you hit the dyno now won't we.

It will be time to put your money where your mouth is

Phil Great numbers congrats, I knew your car would be over 200 hp,, I am happy for you, we'll go for test run at PDX, welcome to the 200 club, you worked really hard to accomplish it.

dieselpower04 said:

I guess we will see when you hit the dyno now won't we.

It will be time to put your money where your mouth is

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Perhaps you all are reading to much into my speculative words. I sure didn't mean to stir up the old ST vs KERMA controversy. I'll be putting the car on a Mustang dyno in St Paul it a couple of weeks or so. For what it's worth, the operator there told me his dyno registers lower than most others but he feels it's more accurate. As for my turbo speculations: I think I've read of people getting around 180 hp with a vnt 17. What would Phil get using one instead of his 17/22? What will I get with my K3B? Time will tell. I do know the K3B measures just a little bigger at both ends. What I can say at ths point is I have yet to see more than 1400 F EGT's. Wouldn't that indicate a lot of air?

darkhorse said:

Perhaps you all are reading to much into my speculative words. I sure didn't mean to stir up the old ST vs KERMA controversy. I'll be putting the car on a Mustang dyno in St Paul it a couple of weeks or so. For what it's worth, the operator there told me his dyno registers lower than most others but he feels it's more accurate. As for my turbo speculations: I think I've read of people getting around 180 hp with a vnt 17. What would Phil get using one instead of his 17/22? What will I get with my K3B? Time will tell. I do know the K3B measures just a little bigger at both ends. What I can say at ths point is I have yet to see more than 1400 F EGT's. Wouldn't that indicate a lot of air?

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VNT-17 is good for 180 BHP, but if run to 180 WHP would be dangerous territory, nigh impossible.

Bob_Fout said:

VNT-17 is good for 180 BHP, but if run to 180 WHP would be dangerous territory, nigh impossible.

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What is dangerous territory for the 17/22?

MAXRPM said:

Phil Great numbers congrats, I knew your car would be over 200 hp,, I am happy for you, we'll go for test run at PDX, welcome to the 200 club, you worked really hard to accomplish it.

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Thanks man, your car inspired me truthfully. When I rode in it last year, I was amazed I eagerly await to see how fast your car is now! My gut tells me it's scary fast, but my head says your turbo can't push anything more. We'll see...

darkhorse said:

What is dangerous territory for the 17/22?

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Probably anything over about 215 whp. There are about 6 cars with this hybrid in NA that have 200whp dynos that I know of. Most of them run in the 26-28 psi range and it's counter productive to push harder than that. Some people with 26 psi run 170hp, and some run 200hp+ with the same boost level. All the supporting mods with the right tuning help add up.

The highest VNT-17 dyno I've seen was 173 whp and it was smoking like a train. Way more than my video...

Probably anything over about 215 whp. There are about 6 cars with this hybrid in NA that have 200whp dynos that I know of. Most of them run in the 26-38 psi range and it's counter productive to push harder than that. Some people with 26 psi run 170hp, and some run 200hp+ with the same boost level. All the supporting mods with the right tuning help add up.

The highest VNT-17 dyno I've seen was 173 whp and it was smoking like a train. Way more than my video...[/QUOTE]

38 psi ! the Hybrid Holset 35/40 in my dodge is set at 38. I was under the impression they get more like hair dryers than compressors when pushed to hard. My TDI is tuned for mid 20's it'll over boost to 28 before it settles back to 26 or so. Apparently you are reaching the safe limits of the 17/22 now but you do have the Colt cam which should help a lot.

Woops! I meant 28 LOL.

darkhorse said:

Perhaps you all are reading to much into my speculative words. I sure didn't mean to stir up the old ST vs KERMA controversy.

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Neither was I and I don't think anyone else really was. I'm simply interested in the facts of the matter and as useful data as possible. I wish I had an unlimited budget so I could just sit there and test every possible combination all day long. I am really looking forward to more possible testing in the future.

darkhorse said:

I'll be putting the car on a Mustang dyno in St Paul it a couple of weeks or so. For what it's worth, the operator there told me his dyno registers lower than most others but he feels it's more accurate.

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Mustangs are known to be a bit more on the conservative side. I've read some info about the calculations that dynojet uses as being optimistic...but I'm not so sure that it matters in some respects. What matters is gains and comparison based on the same dyno, or at the very least the same type of dyno. I wouldn't read too much into it if someone made more or less on a mustang.

darkhorse said:

As for my turbo speculations: I think I've read of people getting around 180 hp with a vnt 17. What would Phil get using one instead of his 17/22? What will I get with my K3B? Time will tell. I do know the K3B measures just a little bigger at both ends. What I can say at ths point is I have yet to see more than 1400 F EGT's. Wouldn't that indicate a lot of air?

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I think the compressor on the 17/22 is probably good for about 10-20hp difference over all. But, it's really not all that big of a jump from a 49. The cam and the water probably played a decent role in the numbers that we were able to get. I walked away from that dyno feeling like there simply was no more power left in this setup. Playing with the fueling and timing made relatively little difference. From beginning to end I was only able to squeeze out another 5hp, though I'm sure the car heating up was also working against us. Your temps may indicate a number of factors such as injection quantity, injection duration, injection timing, compressor efficiency, turbine efficiency, intercooler efficiency, charge pipe pressure drop, exhaust flow, etc. There are just a lot of variables involved.

vwmikel said:

...... There are just a lot of variables involved.

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Ain't that the truth! I have been sitting on the sidelines of the big turbo, high HP crowd, envious of your power but happy to not be worrying about money and reliability on my daily driver. But it seems like most people hit the higher numbers we've seen from the plain VNT-17 just by overfueling like crazy. You don't see many folks with all supporting mods (FMIC, Full intake and exhaust, cam, porting, water/meth, etc) that many others with the 17/22 do have. I would love to see a 1749 hit 200 WHP with the full supporting mods.... maybe impossible, but who has really tried?

shizzler said:

Ain't that the truth! I have been sitting on the sidelines of the big turbo, high HP crowd, envious of your power but happy to not be worrying about money and reliability on my daily driver. But it seems like most people hit the higher numbers we've seen from the plain VNT-17 just by overfueling like crazy. You don't see many folks with all supporting mods (FMIC, Full intake and exhaust, cam, porting, water/meth, etc) that many others with the 17/22 do have. I would love to see a 1749 hit 200 WHP with the full supporting mods.... maybe impossible, but who has really tried?

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I bet Piranha is close.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=16543

Bob_Fout said:

I bet Piranha is close.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=16543

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Should be... 2L, cam, super exclusive uber premium Euro D2

shizzler said:

I would love to see a 1749 hit 200 WHP with the full supporting mods.... maybe impossible, but who has really tried?

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This was done with vnt1749vb, race520's and 12mm, in a rotary.

jsrmonster said:

This was done with vnt1749vb, race520's and 12mm, in a rotary.

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Those are some excellent results. How much boost did you have that little turbo pushing?

Speaking of maxxing the 17/22, Jeff- I'd like to see the dyno plot you have of the ARL in your profile with the hybrid rocking 250hp/425 ft-lbs I'm assuming that was with the Nitrous Express kit?

Due to the database issue here my post again:

Hi Phil thats a excellent result i made 212whp with a 2260, 783, 33 degree fuel duration and 2.2bar boost. With the same hardware but 35 degree fuel and 2.5 bar i made 225whp.

I could really do with a cam, but the last time i got a email from Geoff @ colt cams the price was crazy high (outright buy)

I've pm'ed users of this site for a good cam but nothing has come of it. Currently i can get hold of a dbilas dynamic with the following spec:

Max duration: 272 degree
Max lift: 9.8mm
Overlap: 110 degree

But I've heard they are made out of choclate lol

If anyone can supply me with a good cam please PM (I will be taking 3)
Modified PD lobes would be even better

Thanks
Bobby

shizzler said:

Ain't that the truth! I have been sitting on the sidelines of the big turbo, high HP crowd, envious of your power but happy to not be worrying about money and reliability on my daily driver. But it seems like most people hit the higher numbers we've seen from the plain VNT-17 just by overfueling like crazy. You don't see many folks with all supporting mods (FMIC, Full intake and exhaust, cam, porting, water/meth, etc) that many others with the 17/22 do have. I would love to see a 1749 hit 200 WHP with the full supporting mods.... maybe impossible, but who has really tried?

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I have seen an ALH with a 17 hit 180 WHP, and let me tell you, it was smoking like a freight train. I've never seen a 17 make more HP than that on the dyno.

I have seen higher on a 17. One member here did a posted 185 whp.