VW TDI Diesel Gets 120 MPG on one Gal of Diesel with CNG blend!!

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Woodrobin

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Location
Topeka, KS
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2001 Jetta GLS
Mr. Mann,

It seems to me that there are separate issues that are getting mixed together, and I'd like to clarify them. In my opinion, there are three main issues, only two of which are in dispute.

1. Does your invention work?

That is, will it burn CNG mixed with Diesel and make the car go from point A to point B without exploding, failing, or having any other immediate issues?

This is not in dispute. No one is doubting or disparaging your engineering skills, your creativity, your drive and desire to improve on an existing design (the TDI engine), nor your work ethic. Obviously, the design is functional. And obviously, it is praiseworthy to see a way to improve on something and do the hard work necessary to make your idea a reality.

2. Is your invention practical for someone wanting to purchase and install it in their own vehicle?

Here is where issues of return on investment come in. This does not question your ingenuity. People want to know how much this would cost because they like the idea and want to know what they would need to do to use it themselves. You would then need to let people know how much the kit would cost, how much labor it would require to install, how skilled the installer needs to be, how practical it is to acquire CNG, etc. That way, people would know if they could or should use this innovation in their own car.

Unfortunately, your responses here have not been as clear and complete as I hope they could be. This leads to the next issue.

3. Are you a reliable source of information, and by extension, does this invention do what you say it does the way you say it does it?

When people ask questions based on an at least tentative interest in buying something from you, and your answers are incomplete, illegible, non-responsive, confusing or misleading, people may be put off or become suspicious. People tend to interpret these kinds of answers, as well as hostility towards questions, as signs of either dishonesty ("this person doesn't want to tell me the truth") or disability ("this person can't respond to my questions in a way that is meaningful to me").

This doesn't mean that you are being dishonest, but it does mean that people are not getting the information they need to make a decision about whether they want to buy things from you. Since that seems, at least in part, to be your goal, taking steps to correct that issue would seem to serve your interests.
 

an60an

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Location
SLC/Utah
TDI
2002 Golf TDI 5 speed 2003 Golf TDI 5 speed
Looks like Mr Mann is hiding so let me tell you what I have learned about all this:
We have a company here in Utah that sell the kit including the 3600PSI Type1 DOT CNG steel tank holding 4.5 gallons of CNG.
The CNG Conversion Kit is: $699.00
High output regulator is: $299.00
The CNG stell tank 4.5 gallons is: $899.00 (this is the smallest one, if you go for the biggest one 13.5 gallons you are looking at $1999)
Installation is 6 hours at $65 per hour
So far we are looking at $2287.00 plus tax at 12% give us a number of $2561.44
All this is before you even having the CNG Installation at your house as the Mr Mann is saying.

I've made a few phone calls and the cheapest home based CNG station you could have is somewhere around $4K.

So we are looking for around $6500.00 investment before even you start the car for the first time.
Here in UT the Diesel is at $3.80 at the moment.
$6500 will get me 1710 gallons.
If my average is 50MPG this is 85526.3 miles before I break EVEN.
Driving about 20K a year it will take me 4 years to get even..... however the whole set up needs to be serviced as well at least once for this 4 years and the cost is about $2k.
Another $2000 will give me 526 more gallon of Diesel = 26315 miles.
So far I am looking at almost 6 years of driving and 111 000 miles before I break even on my investment..... Hm...I will pass.

So Mr Mann, you didn't give us any numbers so I got my own.
Would you care to challenge me, or at least prove me wrong with your numbers?

What is going to be Mr Mann?

P.S If you wish I will provide link to the company here in Utah with phone numbers, address etc. so you could verify all of the above for yourself.
 
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Left Coast Resident

Ubẽr Clubbie
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Location
San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles)
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2001, 2002 & 2003 Jettas
Let's just get to the real heart of the matter here, and address the question that everyone wants to know: if this blend uses less diesel, and cleans up the emissions, does this mean I can't effectively soot tailgaters???

I need my sooting options.

Getting back on topic and serious again, there's another thread of interest here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=278427
 
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CNGVW

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
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Location
Bob Mann Auto, 111 High St, Pembroke MA 02359
TDI
Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
Bob, those emission tests are valid information, but they are too small to be readable.

You are taking these valid questions as an attack, but I believe most all of them are not intended that way. However, the more defensive you get, the harder time you will have convincing.
Sorry for the small pic ther can be read a http://cngvw.wordpress.com/
I updated the story.
You can see them full size.
For the attacks it is all was the same here you can’t spell I am handy caped it’s called ADHD and dyslectic I do my best. You are not giving information fast unoff and most of us know that 90% could not change their own oil here. When I ask show me what you have done lately there is never a taker. Am I asking too much??
For the power usage on the Fuel makerBKmetz was right 1KWH I tested it he was right. I have seen other pumps in the low .6KWH for 1 GGE
Bob Mann
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Patience and kindness, everyone.

I don't know Bob personally, but I'd just like to see more constructive efforts--on all sides, critics and inventors.

I don't know if there is a clear-cut, cogent argument for NG-Tdi or not. Maybe the payback only happens when you drive 25,000 miles/year. Let's help to flesh out the answers instead of getting personal.

Thanks.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Location
Arizona
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SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Bob, I am fascinated by the installation. Is it possible to feed the NG into the turbo inlet?

Got any diagrams?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Patiently sitting here waiting on another post that tip toes around the subject but never explains......
then

And voila...
These two were my belly laugh for the afternoon.:p


Bob,

You don't get it. There are a lot of people here who want this to work.

We don't know CNG, you do.

We are looking for information to base a decision on whether what ou have done can be replicated for a reasonable cost by us non-subject matter experts on CNG.

The way we do this is not by emission tests, or comments about $2000 performance turbos (a VNT 17 is about $900 on a bad day, where are you getting $2000 from?) that have nothing to to with your CNG kit.

We want to know how much your CNG kit costs, with taxes and shipping.

We want to know the cost of installation.

If contemplating the home fill option, how much would the home filling station reasonably cost right now?

We want to know the amount of Miles / Kilometers that can be obtained on the blend, and how many (given that you are consuming two fuels) gallons of diesel and cng combined it will take to get you that distance.

With the above, we can make reasonable educated decisions on whether this type of conversion is suited for our idividual situations. If the numbers work we can then figure out if there are enough NG filling stations in our area or if we need to try the home fill route.


Getting antagonistic does not help. Posting opacity tests (although interesting) does not answer the fundamental questions above.
 
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Rickstah

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Location
Yukon, Oklahoma
TDI
NB, 2002, green, Eurotek STG1
Lots of turf-cutting here by those who obviously love a good bout of witty repartee, because no matter what a person posts, it can be dismantled if one tries hard enough. That said, other posts have been very helpful in trying to articulate Bob's dilemma on how to approach this bunch of..er...disparate personalities. There is no virtue in calling people out, or questioning manhood and the like. For my part the home filling option is not an option at the moment though I have CNG at home. I DO have several CNG stations in my metro area that would provide fill-up opportunities if I had this kit on-board Christine, so for me, calculating my costs without the complications of home-filling numbers is simpler.

Bob, if you have someone who can help you write up your findings in a simple, helpful format, that would be great for those like me who just want some path forward in this thread to a quantifiable cost/effort for an onboard kid that I can set and forget :).

I, for one, understood your "round trip" references, but still it was not easy to understand the calculation, because obviously you can't equate 2.x gallons of cng to diesel in mileage calculations, yet we need to get an accurate estimate of the increase, which I know several are trying to zero in on.

I hope we can continue to get more info on this matter, and quit trying to WIN...the point should be to generate enough understandable data points so that we can then see a pattern, and then come to a conclusion. BUT...Bob you need to step up with more coherent data that will help us draw conclusions...subscribed and waiting for the full-tank results!

Update: oops, what Windex said, too :)
 

an60an

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Location
SLC/Utah
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2002 Golf TDI 5 speed 2003 Golf TDI 5 speed
I've provided the price for the kit, you are looking at around $2100 for the kit alone with 4.5 gallons tank. the company here in Utah ships US and Canada.
 

CNGVW

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Location
Bob Mann Auto, 111 High St, Pembroke MA 02359
TDI
Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
^^^^^ Hey, can you read English?
I don't want to see your emission test, tell me HOW MUCH IS THE COST OF THE WHOLE INSTALATION PLUS THE COST OF THE KIT PLUS HOURS LABOUR
You got that??

I will post it on My Ebay site in a few days just the front end kit includes regulator, hose with HP adjuster and elbow, fuel gauge, Stainless ¼ shut off and short line for shut off dash switch. And L bracket for mounting to battery plate and wiring harness. For $550 with 30day money back guaranty.
You will need to buy a tank some were and line with hardware.
And a ETS from http://thesensorconnection.com and use my site on the how to install. I do have a youtube on the install and how it runs just need some time to clean it up.
Bob Mann
 

CNGVW

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Location
Bob Mann Auto, 111 High St, Pembroke MA 02359
TDI
Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
I will post it on My Ebay site in a few days just the front end kit includes regulator, hose with HP adjuster and elbow, fuel gauge, Stainless ¼ shut off and short line for shut off dash switch. And L bracket for mounting to battery plate and wiring harness. For $550 with 30day money back guaranty.
You will need to buy a tank some were and line with hardware.
And a ETS from http://thesensorconnection.com and use my site on the how to install. I do have a youtube on the install and how it runs just need some time to clean it up.
Bob Mann
Here is a Youtube of it running and its sticker test.
http://youtu.be/Yem6t6GQrc8
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
If you are going to use ROI us it for every thing. And as I said if you can do better please do show it. and for a spread sheet any one can make up that.I work in real world testing. For a 3 year return on a solar panel please post were and what brand
with meter reading. the norm is like ten years??
Bob Mann
I wouldn't install solar if the return was 10 years. I live in AZ and have 16 Kyocera 210 watt panels and an SMA inverter.

The local utility at the time I installed the system bought the REC (Renewable Energy Certificates) for the lesser of $3.00 per Watt or 50% of installed cost. I maximized my return by sizing my system to offset my on-peak hourly load as I am on a 9am - 9 pm weekday on-peak rate schedule. The utility has net metering which allows banking of excess generation for use in later periods. As you can see below in 2011, I purchased no on-peak energy from the utility saving about on average about 20 cents per kWh for my home use during the on-peak period. Overall I saved 13.8 cents per kWh from the PV generation of 6348 kWH. This rate tariff is soooooo good for PV generation, that it is frozen (no one else can choose it).

You can look at the actual PV performance data here. If the link doesn't work go to sunnyportal.com and under publicly available plants search for Plus 3 Golfer3360PV.

Here's a snapshot of my 2011 data based on actual PV generation and meter readings and the monthly savings due to the addition of the solar PV system.


 
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CNGVW

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Location
Bob Mann Auto, 111 High St, Pembroke MA 02359
TDI
Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
Up my way it is in the 9 year mark you are doing very well good job. But with out the kick backs how long? I know a bit of how hard it is to make that kind of power.
I am the inveter of the Tree Top Wind turbine and the Mann Smart Drive for wind turbines. Me and steve have a new MPPT I say Me I did help with some funds and hardware that will out do the sunny boy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JcC--1urUw&feature=player_embedded
Bob Mann
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
I re-ran my model on my system and if I received no state and federal tax credits, no utility rebate, and the utility rates increased at 3% each year, the payback would be 17 years.
 

atc98002

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Location
Auburn WA
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2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
Sorry for the small pic ther can be read a http://cngvw.wordpress.com/
I updated the story.
You can see them full size...
Bob, thank you for the link. I looked at the MA Emission Test and I do see the opacity test is an improvement, but as someone who doesn't live in MA I am confused about the actual report (the first image). It clearly states the car failed the emissions portion of the test, but I didn't see anywhere on the form an explanation why it failed. Here in WA, the test report includes all the data, including measured numbers, on a single page. Can you explain why the car failed, and if there was any connection to using CNG? Is there a page missing?

I completely understand that there might be something in your prototype that might trip a fail (such as the Check Engine Light) that really won't be a problem once all the little kinks are out.
 

CNGVW

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Bob Mann Auto, 111 High St, Pembroke MA 02359
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Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
I had said in the past post and VID it has a check engine light on and off for the glow plug. Just before the test it come on it failed the test for the light being on. There has never been a code of any kind for the runing of it on CNG.

Bob Mann
 

atc98002

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2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
I had said in the past post and VID it has a check engine light on and off for the glow plug. Just before the test it come on it failed the test for the light being on. There has never been a code of any kind for the runing of it on CNG.

Bob Mann
Must have missed it. Thank you.
 

CNGVW

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Location
Bob Mann Auto, 111 High St, Pembroke MA 02359
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Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
Honda electric car gets 118 mpg

Now here is Honda say it gets 118 to a Gal and I took some heat for my 120 MPG Diesel CNG blend.
If you look at their math and how they come to this it makes you think.
If you think of just the true Cost Per Mile Traveled people would make there spending habits on just this, thing would change very fast.
Just the a update the TDI is running just great and the fuel gauge is starting to move off full 280 miles. I am looking for some one to drive it to get time on it.
Bob Mann
 

Wksg

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Location
Ann Arbor MI
TDI
2003 GLS TDI Wagon
If you look at their math and how they come to this it makes you think.
I read that the Honda took 29 kWh to go 100 miles. That's about 99,000 BTU of energy, or 99/114 = 0.87 GGE per hundred miles, which is about 115 mpg. At electric rates of $0.12/kWh, that's $3.50 per hundred miles, $.035 per mile.

You went 60 miles on 0.51 gallons D2 (66,000 BTU) and 1.2 GGE CNG (137,000 BTU) for a total energy use of 203,000 BTU, or 1.78 GGE, giving about 34 mpg and costing $2 for the diesel + either $3.17 (at the $2.64/GGE I can buy CNG for at the local pumps) or about $0.50 (at the $0.40/GGE you can get at your home fueling station). At my fuel prices, that would be $5.17 to go 60 miles, $.086/mile, at your prices, $3.67 to to 60 miles, $.061/mile.

I've been doing really good on fuel economy lately now that it's warm, averaging 61 mpg for the last 3000 miles or so. At $4/gallon, $.066/mile.

As I recall, the Tesla roadster uses 300 watt-hours per mile of driving, which is 30 kWh per hundred miles. So this Honda looks to be as efficient as the Tesla. Not surprising, probably, the electric drivetrains should have about the same efficiency and the Tesla might be sleeker, but the Honda is smaller, so their drag coefficients are probably close too. But I'm just guessing.
 

Woodrobin

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Topeka, KS
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2001 Jetta GLS
Now here is Honda say it gets 118 to a Gal and I took some heat for my 120 MPG Diesel CNG blend.
Every time I see you repeating that term, I think this:



You are getting a little over 35 MPG on a blend of Diesel and CNG. You are splitting out the Diesel part, figuring that you are burning 0.51 gallons of diesel in 60 miles, fudging the math to make 117 miles per gallon of diesel used into 120 miles, then not mentioning the 2.4 gallons of CNG that would be used over that distance at all. Which makes it seem like you're going 120 miles per gallon of fuel used. Which you are not. And you know you are not, as it has been repeatedly pointed out to you, using your own figures.

You didn't take heat for "120 MPG Diesel CNG blend"

You're smart enough to have created this device; I refuse to believe you're not smart enough to understand that that phrase, as written, is a lie.

You took heat for repeatedly claiming your product does something it doesn't do. You took heat for lying by omission by using the above phrase over and over even after it was pointed out that's it's not accurate nor truthful. In short, you took heat for making a false claim while trying to sell a product. Which is something you should, at the very least, take heat for.
 
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an60an

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^^^^^ as had happen many times, he is just walking around the real questions and never, ever answer them. He keep talking about this 120MPG but never provided any real data to support this claims.. for me he is just attention seeker who plays his "I am a guy with ADD" and hoping for sympathy vote.
I've watched his video on youtube and he seems to be 100% OK, no problems with "explaining" how wonderful his set up is, however he seems to have a problem doing the same here...one cannot stop wondering why?
 

CNGVW

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Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
I stand by my math. I just love you guys a bunch of little men in a box. I based it on a $3.99 a Gal of Diesel and a $1.00 a GGE( GAL) You miss the point it all comes down to the cost of fuel to travel one mile Or Cost of Fuel Per Mile Traveled . You talk of BTUs this and that. If we lived in a Lab this may work. It comes down to 20 +years of Dyno time and track testing and back to the drawing board.
It comes to burn rate, true useable HP and how clean it is out the tail pipe. How fast you get the car up to cruising speed and keep it there on the less amount of fuels.
I posted a VID were I run a Jetta on gasoline then to CNG and then on Hydrogen and drive it on all those fuels with the switch of a valve
Diesel
44,800
19,300
43,400
Hydrogen
141,790
61,000
121,000
Gasoline
47,300
20,400
44,400
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-higher-calorific-values-d_169.html
Please tell me which fuel should of made the most power??
Bob Mann
 

an60an

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Location
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2002 Golf TDI 5 speed 2003 Golf TDI 5 speed
I stand by my math. I just love you guys a bunch of little men in a box. I based it on a $3.99 a Gal of Diesel and a $1.00 a GGE( GAL) You miss the point it all comes down to the cost of fuel to travel one mile Or Cost of Fuel Per Mile Traveled . You talk of BTUs this and that. If we lived in a Lab this may work. It comes down to 20 +years of Dyno time and track testing and back to the drawing board.
It comes to burn rate, true useable HP and how clean it is out the tail pipe. How fast you get the car up to cruising speed and keep it there on the less amount of fuels.
I posted a VID were I run a Jetta on gasoline then to CNG and then on Hydrogen and drive it on all those fuels with the switch of a valve
Diesel
44,800
19,300
43,400
Hydrogen
141,790
61,000
121,000
Gasoline
47,300
20,400
44,400
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-higher-calorific-values-d_169.html
Please tell me which fuel should of made the most power??
Bob Mann
Hey Bob,
Stop beating around the bushes.
Obviously you read and speak English, so please be so kind to answer the following questions:

1. What is the total cost of your set up including the cost of high pressure steel tank and labour? (If a customer comes to you and give you the keys for his TDI Jetta, how much you will charge him for the lot?)

2. How many gallons of diesel+CNG the car uses per 1000 miles?

3. How often the system needs servicing and what is the cost? (Parts+ labour)

Let start just with this 3 simple questions. Just answer them, nothing less, nothing more. No smog test results, no any other info.

3 simple questions, can you do that Bob?
 

WutGas?

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Location
Oklahoma City
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The Last Real Jetta Sedan
I stand by my math. I just love you guys a bunch of little men in a box. I based it on a $3.99 a Gal of Diesel and a $1.00 a GGE( GAL) You miss the point it all comes down to the cost of fuel to travel one mile Or Cost of Fuel Per Mile Traveled . You talk of BTUs this and that. If we lived in a Lab this may work. It comes down to 20 +years of Dyno time and track testing and back to the drawing board.
It comes to burn rate, true useable HP and how clean it is out the tail pipe. How fast you get the car up to cruising speed and keep it there on the less amount of fuels.
I posted a VID were I run a Jetta on gasoline then to CNG and then on Hydrogen and drive it on all those fuels with the switch of a valve
Diesel
44,800
19,300
43,400
Hydrogen
141,790
61,000
121,000
Gasoline
47,300
20,400
44,400
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-higher-calorific-values-d_169.html
Please tell me which fuel should of made the most power??
Bob Mann
It's this simple, Bob.....

1. Cost per mile - you have come up with a blend that is cheaper than using straight D2 (Not taking any conversion/parts/labor prices into consideration).

2. Your claim of 120mpg is wrong. You are not allowing for the energy being generated by the CNG. If this is how it works, I would guess you believe CNG vehicles gets infinite miles per gallon.

3. Cost to the consumer. I have a 2010 Jetta and would like to bring this too you for the complete conversion. What is your estimate on cost for this?
 

whitedog

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Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
How do the guys running veggie systems report their fuel economy? I don't follow those threads so I don't know if guys get whacked like Bob does if they report 200 MPG for their system if they use 2.5 gallons of diesel in 500 miles and the balance is veggie oil.

Fuel economy should best be reported in cost per mile.
 

CNGVW

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Many TDI Jettas and a Beetle Race car run 2010 jetta tdi cup car build roadrace
I did post the cost for kit in this forum. The front end kit was $575 still need the EX temp sensor shut off I would use the $220 one. for the tank and line you would have to do some reseach but I would install the whole thing with a used tank for $2000 to $2500.
The claim is the same a Whitedog has said, I stand by my facts this is a Diesel base engine.
Bob Mann
 

white95v6

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tullahoma,tn
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2000 jetta 5spd tdi 2003 jetta jw 5spd tdi
what i like is he keeps reporting how little the fuel gauge has moved in X amout of miles.

and those miles are not high at all. my stock jetta's do the same.
 

whitedog

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Bob, I would like to see you be more open about the costs as well. You have talked about the cost of the kit installed, but what about the other other costs? Are they in this thread and have been lost in the fray, or have you skipped over posting them. I think that it is this point that causes trouble for many folks. There is a perception that you are hiding the true, full cost of everything from cradle to grave as well as the full, true fuel economy which is cost per mile.
 
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