LRR Tires 4x100 to 5x100 hub kit? install honda insight 165/65/r14 rims/tires on mk4

>>>7. LRR tires -- 4x100 to 5x100 Hub Kit and put honda insight 165/65/R14 tires and rims on my mk4. they gave the honda insight additional 5mpg. they are rated very high for LRR and the 165 width is nice. Issues are Hub Kit, front caliber clearance, difference the small tire will make on FE?

I learned a lot about hyper mileing on my Honda Insight. I pull one level no windly trip of 30km and got 104.8mpg-us. Of course I surge and glided in 4th at 20mph to 45mpg until I used the battery up and then keep it in lean burn for the rest of the way.

I like the 165mm width of the Honda Insight OEM Tires and I read lots of testimonies in the insight forum on the difference between those tires and any others. So I have a few questions.

1. Is there a way to deal with the clearance of the front brake calibres there looks like there is a 1/4" clearance. Can these be changed out.

2. Dropping down to a 14" tire -- will this effect mileage due to not traveling as far.

3. How would I fix the speedometer so it reads right.

Bridgestone Potenza RE92 P165/65R14 78S
Tubeless Steel Belted Radial M+S
Treadwear 260 Traction A Temperature B
Made in Japan


This is #7 in a list of 20 things I am looking at doing to my 2000 Golf TDI to try to get it over 83.4mpg-us.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3851830&postcount=2

If your are willing to drop down to a 165 tire, look at 165r 15 that fit the old aircooled VWs. these would fit on a stock set of steel wheels, saving the trouble of changing bolt patterns.

I also thought of getting a set light weight spun aluminum wheels, you could save about 15 per wheel tire combo over a stock set of 195 tires on stock rims.

What is the load and speed rating of the narrow tires?

Are you concerned about compromising handling & braking by going to these lower tires?

@tditom
>>>Are you concerned about compromising handling & braking by going to these lower tires?

Well I don't drive fast, I am hypermileing so I try to say off the highway. So I think I might be more concerned in the winter than the summer, but in general no.

@VWBeamer
>>>look at 165r 15 that fit the old aircooled VWs.

It's not just the width of the tire but these tires were well known to have very good LRR properties.

You don't have to be driving fast to need the braking and handling the car was designed to have
No one plans for an accident. Other people share the road with you and you need the car to handle as designed to possibly prevent accidents.

The car is designed to use a minimum 195mm tire width, with a min 91 load rating and H speed rating. You can get a LRR tire with these design criteria too.

>>>The car is designed to use a minimum 195mm tire width, with a min 91 load rating and H speed rating.

Thank you for your concern

>>>You can get a LRR tire with these design criteria too.

What do you suggest?

Nokian eNtyre is one LRR tire. Pretty sure Michelin and Continental offer them too with specs appropriate for your car.

I'm concerned with the load capacity of these tires on your car as well as the tread section width and how this will relate to handling. I realize you are fully hypermiling so normal handling is not really a concern but having driven plenty of race cars with "skinnies" up front I can say from experience that you have to be very very careful when cornering so you don't roll the tire over and destroy it.

You may get it to work but consider something like the Michelin Energy Saver A/S 185/65/15 as an alternative for excellent LRR characteristics and long tread life. The Ecopia EP100 and dB Super E-Spec does very well also.

@F8L

>>>I can say from experience that you have to be very very careful when cornering so you don't roll the tire over and destroy it.

Yes not I come to a full stop at all stop signs and right turns at red lights and I slow down for 90 degree turns. I got a $125 ticked for going around a 90 at 70km, I have taken them faster but I not look at all tickets and tire ware as part of FE. I have repended and don't do these things any more.

So I am driving very careful.

I would love to get my hands on a used set of Michelin Energy Saver A/S 185/65/15 just to try them out. Even a set with 20% left just to see what the difference is.

Since most of the LRR characteristics of a tire is in the tread I doubt there would be a significant difference between a well worn set of Energy Saver A/S and another LRR tire. Maybe to break your record you could find a well worn something with maybe 2/32 left.

The old VW buses weighed in at about the same as a MKIV jetta, and they rolled along on 165 tires, albeit at lesser expectations.

Would the wider tires be safer? yes. That does not mean 165 tires are un safe. You just need to take into account the braking and handling is going to suffer, like it would be while towing a trailer for example.

with the 165 /78/ 14 inch tire, the diameter is 24.13 inches and the stock 195/65/15 is 24.98 inches.

You would you speedo would be off about 3 mph ( add that to the fact that it's about 3 mph slow already)

source
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTireMath.dos

There are also 175/65/15 LRR tires available.

VWBeamer said:

There are also 175/65/15 LRR tires available.

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That's the size I use (Michelin Energy Savers, the Euro version not the NA version).

For my car, they're 2.7% bigger circumference than the standard tyres, so give me a little tiny gearing boost. You do have to correct the odometer figure if the circumference is different.

Bob,
F8L has a point about the 185-65/15 being more appropriate.
1) stock wheels already clear the brake calipers (no adapters, no added rotating mass, no offset issues, no added expense of another set of Honda wheels). Good LRR tires are available in that 185-65/15 size.
2) no speedometer error. The 185-65/15 have nearly the same rolling diameter as the original 195-60/15
3) no odometer error for the same reason.
4) you didn't request it but the 185-65/15 tires only option is less costly than adapters, Honda wheels, possibly custom wheels to clear the brakes, Insight tires, fender clearance (offset) issues, handling weirdness (due to changed offset).
I would be very hesitant to go with the 175-70/15 as the stock VW rim width will require more sidewall stretch to get the narrower 175 bead width to seal.

I pull one level no windly trip of 30km and got 104.8mpg-us

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I'm embarrassed that you think that a sub-20 mile, one direction, mileage report is worth boasting.
Make it 800 km (500 miles) out and back and let me know if you beat 78 mpg.
Make it 400 km (250 miles) out and back and let me know if you beat 82 mpg.

Remember: More Eco, Less Modder

Lug_Nut said:

...
2) no speedometer error. The 185-65/15 have nearly the same rolling diameter as the original 195-60/15
3) no odometer error for the same reason.
...

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This is incorrect. The original tire was a 65% profile. This is a circumference of about 78.5". A 185/65-15 would give a 2% error.

tditom said:

This is incorrect. The original tire was a 65% profile. This is a circumference of about 78.5". A 185/65-15 would give a 2% error.

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The difference is pretty small in magnitude. The AVID Ascend 185/65/15 = 24.5" diameter 847revs/mile. The same tire in a 195/60/15 = 24.3" diameter 855 revs/mile. Using a basic tire size calculator this comes out to approx 1.03% difference (too fast) or less if you use the values above. Most manufactures recommend staying under 3% difference so I would say he is safe.

The Energy Saver A/S is only available in a 185/65/15 and 195/65/15 so you would miss out on a fabulously LRR tire choice as well.

The other factor not considered is load capacity in how this relates to tire deformation. With the decreased load capacity, tire deformation may be higher which translates into reduced fuel economy. So the wider tire with the higher load capacity may provide better FE than the narrower tire with reduced load capacity at the same pressure.

F8L said:

The difference is pretty small in magnitude. The AVID Ascend 185/65/15 = 24.5" diameter 847revs/mile. The same tire in a 195/60/15 = 24.3" diameter 855 revs/mile. ...

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Why are we talking about a 195/60-15 when that was not standard on any of these cars?
The stock size of the OP's car is 195/65-15.

F8L said:

....

The other factor not considered is load capacity in how this relates to tire deformation. With the decreased load capacity, tire deformation may be higher which translates into reduced fuel economy. So the wider tire with the higher load capacity may provide better FE than the narrower tire with reduced load capacity at the same pressure.

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good point worth repeating.

tditom said:

Why are we talking about a 195/60-15 when that was not standard on any of these cars?
The stock size of the OP's car is 195/65-.

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Damn. LOL

Well, the 185/65/15 is still closer to OE than the tire choice the OP wants to use. There is also the negative effect of going to a smaller diameter tire and how this will affect cruise RPM. Taller tires almost always offer better mpg all else being equal.

Duly noted

tditom said:

The original tire was a 65% profile. This is a circumference of about 78.5". A 185/65-15 would give a 2% error.

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tditom said:

Why are we talking about a 195/60-15 when that was not standard on any of these cars?

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OK, I screwed up on that one too.
I had the A3/B4 TDI width and ratio on my mind (195/60-14), and the 185/65-14 is a near perfect diameter exchange for those cars,

I know that the 185/65-15 size I now have on my A4 is more accurate per distance compared to the GPS than the original size. The speedo is off but by a fixed amount, not a percentage, so that can be corrected easily by indexing the needle.

F8L said:

Damn. LOL

Well, the 185/65/15 is still closer to OE than the tire choice the OP wants to use. There is also the negative effect of going to a smaller diameter tire and how this will affect cruise RPM. Taller tires almost always offer better mpg all else being equal.

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Taller tires can increase wind drag and suspended mass, so they can be moot or even drop FE depending on how "undergeared" the car is.

Forget the insight tire on a MK4. They will work on a MK3 which has nearly the same overall diameter and use 4x100 bolt pattern. I have a MK3 Jetta TDI and will put some LRR tires in 175/55R15 tires from the smart car. But forget the MK4, that has 195/65R15 stock.

bobmutch said:

>>>The car is designed to use a minimum 195mm tire width, with a min 91 load rating and H speed rating.

Thank you for your concern

Click to expand...

I'm all in favor of experimenting but if you're involved in an injury accident and facing a significant judgment your insurance company will be looking for an out. Undersized and underrated tires/rims installed by you just might do the trick. Your insurance company will not cover you unless you're 100% in compliance with the fine print of your auto policy.

Also, you'll need major aeromods to get anywhere close to 83 mpg.

migbro said:

I'm all in favor of experimenting but if you're involved in an injury accident and facing a significant judgment your insurance company will be looking for an out. Undersized and underrated tires/rims installed by you just might do the trick. Your insurance company will not cover you unless you're 100% in compliance with the fine print of your auto policy.

Also, you'll need major aeromods to get anywhere close to 83 mpg.

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Undersized tires are generally safer than oversized, my insight floats right off the road and has the rear slide out from under it in snow if I use anything other than the 165/65r14's that came on the car stock.

Firestone also agrees with me on this, they will OK a slight undersize before they do an oversize, large (read wide) tires having better traction is a myth, the only time it works out if you need to float on mud and more mud being thrown back helps propel you forward, otherwise narrower dig in better and are almost always better on ice and wet surfaces, but I digress.

1/4" clearance between the caliper and the wheel is fine. If you needed to you might be able to use rotors, caliper brackets and calipers off an earlier car. I know with my old SHO, the earlier cars could use the rotors and caliper brackets from the later cars ('96-'99) to upgrade without having to change the caliper. Someone also made a billet caliper bracket to allow one to use the same setup in the rear.

Dropping down to the 14" tire will effect mileage. The speedo and odometer will both be off by over 10%. That and it have the same effect as a gear swap.

I'm not sure if speedometer can be re-calibrated. In some vehicles it possible to due with a tuner. Perhaps it can be done with a Vag-com??

bobmutch said:

>>>

1. Is there a way to deal with the clearance of the front brake calibres there looks like there is a 1/4" clearance. Can these be changed out.

2. Dropping down to a 14" tire -- will this effect mileage due to not traveling as far.

3. How would I fix the speedometer so it reads right.

Bridgestone Potenza RE92 P165/65R14 78S
Tubeless Steel Belted Radial M+S
Treadwear 260

Click to expand...