4 cylinder TDI quattro clutch discussion

vtpsd

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03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
I wanted to see if I could get some feedback on peoples clutch and flywheel setups.

My car currently has a solid steel flywheel from an audi 80 with a 2.0 gasser. The trans is a 4.11 TDI 6-speed. The clutch is a sprung hub spec stage 2+. It holds well and drives well, but the gear rattle is quite noticeable in neutral and when lugging the engine.

This combined with the horror stories of the TDI 01e having issues with synchros breaking because of a solid flywheel has me wanting a different setup.

Now there are some high end options out there like the darkside 240mm kit. This is expensive and would require me to get a different starter, maybe a spacer too?

There is the whitbread single mass kit, which seems good. Not sure on the price of that, but I would likely also need a new starter with that one.

Emil is running a Valeo single heavy single mass and says his is dead quiet, but it looks like his hub springs in the clutch are much softer than mine. It is holding the power of a 2.0 PD with a bigger holset than mine in a heavier car, so that clutch is probably an option for me.

I think I want a dual mass flywheel, with a sprung hub that will hold around 300 ft/lbs. I am thinking that I might be able to use a stock 1.8t DMF with some kind of upgraded clutch for that setup. That would fit my engine, trans and starter, and be available on this side of the pond. The kick with that is, all the kits I can find that hold 300 ft/lbs for the stock DMF use a solid hub clutch. This would concern me.

I am wondering if I can take an upgraded disk from a company like southbend that is sprung and use it with their pressure plates for the DMF and make the kit I want. Not sure if the clutch disks between the two are the same dimensions or not. I am going to call a couple clutch places today and see if I can get any where with this theory.

Does anyone else have anything to add? Or suggests/critiques?

Thanks,
-Dana
 

vtpsd

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03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
Well, I've chatted with several clutch people.

Here is my plan: new LUK 1.8t fitment DMF with southbend stage 3 daily clutch.

The people at southbend were extremely knowledgeable, and were very understanding of the special needs of a diesel for vibration isolation. They felt this was a good approach, and that a new 1.8t DMF should hold up decently.

The soutbend clutches are unsprung, but apparently this is no issue with a DMF. The stock vw TDI DMF clutches are also unsprung.

I'm kind of stepping out on a limb here, but I think this might make a decent clutch setup. Whats another grand of blown money in the scope of a project car right?

Good talk guys.
 
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PRA4WX

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Haha! I like the solution. Curious about the single mass issues with 01E's and tdi's. This is sounding vaguely familiar.....
 

vtpsd

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Haha! I like the solution. Curious about the single mass issues with 01E's and tdi's. This is sounding vaguely familiar.....
apparently the synchros vibrate badly and eventually break. And I can confirm, my car makes some not-so-good noises under low revs that I can sort of effect by leaning on the gear shifter and thus synchros.

I don't know for sure if this will be an issue, but I am planning on a road trip to Carlisle May 20th, and across the USA and back in this car in October, and I don't really want any broken transmissions along the way. Especially unobtainable euro-only transmissions.
 

vwztips

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So with your proposed set up will you need a spacer?

The issue with the Darkside kit is that is will need a spacer which moves the center shaft away from the crank which in turn makes you come up with a solution for that as well. Either a PD130 crank or an extended bushing.
 

vtpsd

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according to my research, no spacer needed with my setup because its all 228mm stuff. Emil has a 228mm clutch or an a4 in his car behind a BEW and using an 01x trans, which has the same bellhousing. I should be able to use my starter, pilot bearing, release fork etc with this clutch.

The a4 1.8t does not use the spacer, and this setup is just a 100% 1.8t b5 a4 application.
 

vtpsd

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I'll update this for reference.

I rolled the dice and tried a new LUK 1.8t DMF and a Southbend stage 3 daily clutch. Everything fit, starter fits, drives great. At first it seemed like a great success. BUT, the DMF bottoms out and shutters when getting hard on the throttle in 4th gear and above. MAJOR BUMMER. I can easily drive around this, and probably tune around it, but it sucks. I think I underestimated the power my car is making. You can beat on it as hard as you like in the first 3 gears (and its a hoot).

With a smaller turbo/tune, this setup seems like it would be perfect. Damn DMF cannot take the heat.

Now I'm stuck in no mans land. Choices are:

A) detune the car (totally lame, because its awesome right now)
B) try the Whitbread 240mm SMF setup with a fluid damper ($$$$)
C) drive it around and downshift to accelerate in higher gears.
 

vwztips

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What RPM are you running when "the DMF bottoms out and shutters when getting hard on the throttle in 4th gear and above"?
 

vtpsd

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What RPM are you running when "the DMF bottoms out and shutters when getting hard on the throttle in 4th gear and above"?
I'm not sure, probably between 2500-3200 somewhere. The car has hilariously bad alignment and is not legal. I am registering it this week and getting it aligned friday. Then I can actually drive it around in public and get some good data.

It seemed it happened in 4th going about 50-60mph and stomping on it. Every single time too, not an isolated incident at all. I couldn't make it shutter at all in third, even when romping on it up a steep hill.

My current tune has extremely aggressive fueling that is not scaled on boost at all, so the punch is immense when the turbo is already spooled. I am hoping that it can be tamed down some and still be fun. If not, I am likely going to have to drop another very large chunk of money on whitbreads setup.
 

LukeWilson

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I'm currently using the Audi 80 flywheel, S2 pressure plate and B5 S4/RS4 disc. I do get some clutch rattle in neutral, but it's no worse than a VR6 single mass conversion on a Golf/Jetta TDI. I also get some vibration from 1600-2000rpms under heavy load, almost as if I'm hitting the resonant frequency of the entire car. Is this the gear rattle you're referring to?

I will try putting some dynamat or similar around the chassis eventually, I'm hoping that would be enough. I did do a balance shaft delete, but most people say there isn't a whole lot of difference.

I think Whitbread offers a fluidampr with his kit. I would be curious to know if that would help with the single mass Audi 80 flywheel setup? Might be worth trying before you shell out for the rest of the kit...
 

vwztips

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vtspd, which car again is this in?

My 2001 Audi AllRoad with BHW and DQT 6MQ has WB's set up. Only resonance I have is below 1600 RPMs when in 3rd gear or higher. I have put dynamat in the roof and it helped a little. I really think the resonance is more due to the weight of the car and that it is a wagon with more interior volume than any clutch issues.

This clutch will certainly hold the power as I am running VNT 17/22 VB with a TDTuning Stage 3 tune. The only issue I have right this minute is the disc is very grabby when starting out from a standstill. After moving it is great and the pedal is nicely weighted.
 

Frans

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The 1.8T DMF is not able to hold the torque of the diesel... You need the 240mm TDI , 6 speed DMF and sachs SRE setup, problem solved. You do need a spacer and 6 speed starter. I have everything, including good pricing for the new flywheel/clutch setup.

What kind of engine are you using?
 

vtpsd

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vtspd, which car again is this in?
My 2001 Audi AllRoad with BHW and DQT 6MQ has WB's set up. Only resonance I have is below 1600 RPMs when in 3rd gear or higher. I have put dynamat in the roof and it helped a little. I really think the resonance is more due to the weight of the car and that it is a wagon with more interior volume than any clutch issues.
This clutch will certainly hold the power as I am running VNT 17/22 VB with a TDTuning Stage 3 tune. The only issue I have right this minute is the disc is very grabby when starting out from a standstill. After moving it is great and the pedal is nicely weighted.
mine is a 1991 90 quattro. 3200lbs or so, sedan. I am less concerned about the noise, and more for the health of the synchros. But I do have to say, that the car is much nicer with the 1.8t DMF, i was delighted until i laid into it in 4th gear. :(
I think the WB kit and a fluidampr is probably the way to go, I'm just a little burned out on spending tons of money and pulling quattro transmissions on my back on jackstands.

If I do this again, it has to be the last time for a long while. I want the same thing as everyone else....be able to hold 350ft/lbs, drive decently, and keep my expensive 01e in tact.

I think Whitbread offers a fluidampr with his kit. I would be curious to know if that would help with the single mass Audi 80 flywheel setup? Might be worth trying before you shell out for the rest of the kit...
i had the same flywheel in my car at first. My car probably transmits a lot more noise than yours being older.But I think we are talking about the same noise. Its not horrid, but given the history of 01e synchro issues, I decided to switch to the 1.8t DMF.
 

vtpsd

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The 1.8T DMF is not able to hold the torque of the diesel... You need the 240mm TDI , 6 speed DMF and sachs SRE setup, problem solved. You do need a spacer and 6 speed starter. I have everything, including good pricing for the new flywheel/clutch setup.

What kind of engine are you using?
I also sent you a PM. AHU engine, torque is probably 300-350 ft/lbs. How thick is the spacer? How do you deal with the pilot bearing? Mine currently sits in the crankshaft.
 

vwztips

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I also sent you a PM. AHU engine, torque is probably 300-350 ft/lbs. How thick is the spacer? How do you deal with the pilot bearing? Mine currently sits in the crankshaft.
There is the rub with the BHW and the DMF
 

vtpsd

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There is the rub with the BHW and the DMF
yes, for sure. There are at least two people who have run that setup with a factory 1.8t pilot and a couple mm of engagement. Both still running successfully.
 

Windex

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How did you end up going with this? Whitbread SMF or OE DMF + Sachs SRE?

Wouldn't the SMF / FluidDampr combo end up being similar money to the Darkside SRE/DMF kit? I like that the SMF is a one time hit with parts available on this side of the Atlantic, but I also like that the SRE unsprung disc does not add any additional inertia to the input shaft compared to the higher weight of the sprung disc.

My 01E does not like quick shifts - I would be curious how it would shift with a sprung (heavier) disc.

Decisions, decisions... :D

Oh yeah, the spacer is 5.5mm thick.
 

vwztips

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If you are asking me, I have the WB SMF/Fluid Damper set up. As stated earlier only issue I have is it being grabby in first from a standstill. Looking at my options right now. Go Kevlar on my disc or with the Frankenstein clutch.

VTSPD, FWIW I am driving a 2004 Passat BHW with automatic temporarily. It never drops below 1800 under a load so it never has the opportunity to drone or make bad noises down low.
 
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vtpsd

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Related to this topic, I think the AHU has the longer crank snout, and can possible be used with the 240mm DMF without worry. This is what it looks like, I think it has more room than the BHW crank.


I like the idea of the DMF for a diesel. It really seems like the "correct" way to do it, I'm just not sure how much its all going to cost when I factor in a starter, spacer, DMF, clutch and shipping across the water.
 

vwztips

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I have a starter and 5.5mm spacer I will sell you as I will probably stay with the SMF solution, one way or the other.
 

vtpsd

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I'll update this for future reference:

In my car I now have the 240mm DMF and upgraded organic pressure plate with 5.5mm spacer and the snub nosed Euro starter. The AHU has the longer crank snout, and according to my measurements, I have plenty of engagement on my pilot bearing.

It is holding the power nicely, and driving very nicely.

I am pleased with this setup, and would recommend it. I don't know how much torque I am making, but its pretty significant.
 
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JetPo

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I'll update this for future reference:

In my car I now have the 240mm DMF and upgraded organic pressure plate with 5.5mm spacer and the snub nosed Euro starter. The AHU has the longer crank snout, and according to my measurements, I have plenty of engagement on my pilot bearing.

It is holding the power nicely, and driving very nicely.

I am pleased with this setup, and would recommend it. I don't know how much torque I am making, but its pretty significant.
I guess this will need to be my next setup. Im currentu running a custom CM Single mass flywheel with OEM RS4 B7 clutch in my Audi B6 with PD130 engine and 6 speed 01E tranny. It goes great, except I get some alot of vibration in 3,4,5 and 6th gear between 1800 and 2100 rpm. Its really anoying. I was going to go with Whitebread SMF but if the OEM DMF can hold the torque Ill go with that. Does someone know how much torque it can take ?
 

Windex

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I seem to remember 450nm. My 240mm setup through darkside is nowhere near that (probably 275ft lbs/ 375nm) and still going strong after 250,000 km
 

JetPo

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I'll update this for future reference:

In my car I now have the 240mm DMF and upgraded organic pressure plate with 5.5mm spacer and the snub nosed Euro starter. The AHU has the longer crank snout, and according to my measurements, I have plenty of engagement on my pilot bearing.

It is holding the power nicely, and driving very nicely.

I am pleased with this setup, and would recommend it. I don't know how much torque I am making, but its pretty significant.
Is this the kit you bought : https://www.darksidedevelopments.co...ssat-audi-a4-audi-a6-1-9-2-0-tdi-6-speed.html

If so, the clutch kit itself seems to a performance clutch disc used on RS4 B7. I am running a OEM RS4 B7 clutch kit with my SMF and it is holding my power so I am thinking that I could probalby just buy the OEM 1.9TDI 240mm DMF and use my RS4 clutch kit. This would be alot cheaper than the Darkside kit.

The OEM RS4 B7 clutch kit should hold around 400tq which is enough for my GTB2260.
 

vtpsd

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Yes, I believe that is the kit. I bought it through Dutch Auto Parts.
 

JetPo

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Yes, I believe that is the kit. I bought it through Dutch Auto Parts.
Ok thanks. Im thinking of just getting the DMF 240mm flywheel and using it with an OEM RS4 B7 clutch kit.

Ive read that the 240mm DMF requires a different starter. What starter are you using ?
 

vtpsd

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Ok thanks. Im thinking of just getting the DMF 240mm flywheel and using it with an OEM RS4 B7 clutch kit.
Ive read that the 240mm DMF requires a different starter. What starter are you using ?
Yes, it is a different starter, it has a stubby nose. I dont actually know the application. I also got that from Frans, I just told him I needed a starter that matched the rest of the stuff I was buying.

I actually have the starter on a bench on my shop, I'll try to remember to snap a picture of the part number.
 
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