alh m-Tdi marinisation to match Mercruiser Gen1 drive

Don't know what the bravo 2 was originally bolted to. I'm interested in any parts you might have.

jrnj said:

Don't know what the bravo 2 was originally bolted to. I'm interested in any parts you might have.

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Hi Jrnj,

sorry for the late reply here, have not been active in the forum for a while. The project is still ongoing, things take much longer than expected, as usual ;-)

So far i have the adapter plate ready and the coupler plus a setup with silicone oil filled engine mounts.

These mounts are essential for smooth vibration free operation.

Installing these requires to delete the original Mercruiser mounts in the back, because they are based on simple rubber bushings, no good for isolating a 4cyl Diesel!

Still working on the exhaust manifold and heat exchanger.
I am now integrating the heat exchanger into the manifold to reduce the amount of tubes in the engine bay.

I will post more details about the project as soon as i have time.

Tested the boat again several month ago with the prototype setup, so far the little Tdi performs very very well, even in a 25foot cabin cruiser.

Would you be willing to share your CAD files with me?

I've got a 1Z in my garage and a 38ft steel hull houseboat right next to the garage, and I'd really like the two of them to get to know each other this spring.

I don't think I can go the cast route, but I'm a welder, and a machinist, and your already tested hole/flange/etc dimensioning would go a long way towards machining brackets vs starting from scratch.

Would like an adapterplate like that.

Finalized a major upgrade of all components with heat exchanger and intercooler. Will test the upgrade next month. Will post details and pics as soon as i have time.

Since i build plenty of tooling for casting exhaust manifold and transmission bell, heat exchanger end cabs and for fixtures for machining those parts i will be offering complete marinization sets hopefully within this year.

Any word yet on the exhaust manifold and a standalone 1Z harness? Needing a re power for a 30' sailboat..

Below pics of the latest generation set.
The engine is now tilted 15deg in order to win headroom for the Turbo, just like the original Jetta configuration.
All components are tightly packed to the engine now including the intercooler. Will update the thread soon with some more pics.

Nice.

That's one tidy set up. Impressive.

someone stayed up late on that one. great job!!!

Nicely done

Is that little heat exchanger at the front an oil cooler or part of the AWIC system?

Mikkijayne said:

Nicely done

Is that little heat exchanger at the front an oil cooler or part of the AWIC system?

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its part of the air to water intercooler circuit, plan to add a watercooled alternator to it.

Amazing..

Updates?

RichB said:

Updates?

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He responded to a PM of mine the day he posted his pics (6/16) with this:

"Not sure i can finalize the set this season, still have plenty of issues to work out, the details take up way more time than originally estimated."


I've got a pile of steel in my yard and a 1Z in the garage ready to rebuild the aft portion of my houseboat. I'd been trying to hold off on that project in hopes that something comes together this season. Looks like I'll be reusing the GM 250 I6 the boat is powered with for now, but I'm going to try to plan the new hull portion to easily drop in the TDI when the day comes. Fingers crossed.

Hi Rich, Hi AchTTung,

currently working on redesigning the cooling system. I will place the thermostat into the manifold housing (the way its done with the VW marine engine and others).
Had issues with the manifold getting to hot after slowing down from full throttle operation. Will install that latest update this December. I will post some more pics of the current version these days, sorry for the delay.

So here finally the promised follow up, the work listed here was done in spring 2017.

I noticed performance issues with the water jacketed exhaust manifold that i installed Summer 2016.

The boat had difficulties to plane, black smoke.

The previous version utilizing a Jetta 180 deg rotated SDI exhaust manifold performed much better.
Not sure where the problem comes from, i made sure that the aluminum manifold had larger ports than the original exhaust....

Another Tdiclub member wrote to me a while back that water cooling an manifold might created performance issue due to thermal energy loss in the exhaust gas.... back then i could not believe it since water jacketed marine manifolds are common practice....but i guess he was right.

Sure enough i found a caterpillar patent from the 70s addressing this issue for turbo charged marine engines. https://www.google.com/patents/US4179884

In modern engine technology and, in particular, for special use engines, such as unmanned marine engines, or stationary engines, and the like, turbochargers are used and are powered by the hot exhaust gases from the engine. It is desirable to convey the hot exhaust gases from the engine to the turbocharger in as high a temperature state as is possible. It is also desirable to maintain the outside temperature of the manifold below a predetermined temperature, such as below 400° F. Heretofore, water jackets have been provided about exhaust pipes for the purpose of reducing the external surface temperature of the manifold and, at the same time, to prevent fires on unmanned engines. Unfortunately, the use of water jackets reduces the temperature of the exhaust gases, thereby reducing energy supplied to the hot exhaust gas turbocharger.
Some attempts have been made to produce a manifold with a surface temperature within allowable limits and, at the same time, to maintain the temperature of the exhaust gases as high as possible. One such system provides a sleeve inside the manifold which is surrounded by an air space which air space provides insulation for the hot exhaust gases to keep their temperature as high as possible and, at the same time, to reduce the amount of heat transmitted to the water of the water jacket.

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So once again, back to the drawing board.
I decided to go for some kind of a water cooled manifold heat shield instead.

Anyway, i once came across a listing for a pair of used water cooled turbo heat shields that inspired me to consider the same solution for my turbocharger, this connected to a manifold heat shield makes perfect sense.




so here my solution (rough prototype):




It will be connected to the (second) intercooler heat exchanger circuit.

Here the water cooled manifold shield prototype, i used carbon steel for the prototype, meanwhile manufactured one out of aluminium for a 1Z engine.

.
Here how the update set looked like:



turbo shield mounted to the engine.


the engine badly need an cosmetic update, will do that once all prototyping is done.

We finally took the boat to the lake for some testing, yeahh California lakes have water again.
Everything went well, boat planed immediately.

Only issue that came up was the secondary intercooler heat exchanger not having enough cooling surface.
The boat would only plane for 2 minutes until the intercooler circuit overheated.
Easy fix. i am going to replace the secodary tube core heat exchanger by a plate exchanger. Plan to finalize that February 2017.

In between i have been working on a 1Z marinization matched to an old OMC stringer outdrive.
Implemented all lessons learned from my ALH build to that new build.

Will post infos of that in here as well.

Marine turbochargers such as those on Volvo Penta engines have watercooled hotsides as well as watercooled manifolds, so I guess the conclusion must be that they are specifically designed for these operating conditions whereas automotive turbos apparently aren't?

Marine turbochargers such as those on Volvo Penta engines have watercooled hotsides as well as watercooled manifolds, so I guess the conclusion must be that they are specifically designed for these operating conditions whereas automotive turbos apparently aren't?

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I have a Cummins 4BT marine turbo and wet manifold sitting at home, inner workings no difference to the automotive version.so all thats left to say: see caterpillar patent.

Marine manifolds/turbos Specifically designed (other than a water pocket around them), nope.

Considered air to water for intercooling?

Can pretty much guarantee that unless you're boating in boiling water, it'll be thermally efficient.

Good update. I have been wondering how things were going with your TDI build. I can't wait for the 1Z build.

AchTTung said:

Considered air to water for intercooling?
Can pretty much guarantee that unless you're boating in boiling water, it'll be thermally efficient.

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Take a look at the "kit" photo. He IS using an AWIC set up. He stated that he's needs larger heat transfer area.

Here some pics of my 1Z on OMC stringer build.

We will have to build 2 of them, they are going to power a 38' Cytra Ambassador mainly used for low speed canal cruising in France.




The engine is angled 20deg, just like the original Jetta setup.
It turned out with the same width as the OMC V8, overall length slightly shorter.
Ended up using previous AC compressor location for a 12 Volt Leece Nevil 320 Ampere Alternator # A0014890JB. This heavy duty Alternator is commonly used on trucks and School Buses.

We have a 5KW Inverter on board, combined with this alternator we will be able to power a 220 Volt Air 2.5KW conditioner.

So.... this is how the set looked like after laser cutting



Here the assembled result








OMC stringer adapter plate (304 stainless) was a real challenge to design and build.
I did not want to loose engine room space while using a Centaflex rubber type coupler, needed for Diesel engines.



Here the future location of the 320A 12 Volt Alternator. The original VW alternator will remain on its original position, charging the starter battery only.



Here the 12 Volt Leece Nevil 320 Ampere # A0014890JB monster alternator.
Had a custom pulley for the standard VW 6PK belt made, not sure if the belt will hold up.
Guess time will tell.
Figured a belt driven Auto Air conditioner compressor requires 2-4KW so hoping i am fine here.
Cummins is using an 8PK (8 Tooth) Belt when working with this alternator.

If the smaller belt becomes and issue, could you run two smaller alternators in parallel, one off each engine?

ben2go said:

If the smaller belt becomes and issue, could you run two smaller alternators in parallel, one off each engine?

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That would be a option, but i also want the possibility to use the engine like a generator when the boat is docked and extra power is needed. pretty sure i can manage the belt issue, in any case, would switch to 8pk if 6 fails.

Any updates on your tdi powered ses ray?

Im restoring a 2567 carver santacruz and dumping the 350 for a 2.0 bhw

Currently trying to narrow down my exhaust cooling plans. I am also using an alpha drive with v8 1.5 gearing. Ive gotten with SEI to give me an idea of what the best prop and gearing would be for these set ups (im sure similar to the 1.7 cummins/mercury sterndrive set ups) sadly they are so new ive had issues finding info and they cost so much i don't find people with them. Maybe i hang out at the wrong yacht club?

What kind of pump are you using to pump raw water through your heat exchanger? Ive been looking for a belt drive pump to put in place of the ac compressor.

I want to dedicate my stern drive water pump for my air to water intercooler and then to my oil cooler but im having issues finding those made in stainless or other marine and salt resistant metals, im only seeing them in aluminum.

For your exhaust pipe, i was planning on a well heat wrapped 3 inch or 4 inch exhaust mandrel bent to flex tube to under on top or below my swim platform. Im not sure if i should put exhaust under the plat form under water or above.

I also dont know the best way to regulate the water being injected into the downpipe. Too much and you choke hp and too little you make things melt.

I plan on having a ceramic coated factory manifold and upgrade the turbo. I dont want to mess with water cooled turbos as im afriad ill have the same issue with spoiling as you. I do think i want to use a water and oil cooled center cartridge. I was thinking if heat wrapping the manifold and turbo and on the outside of the manifold and turbo run thin copper tubing throughout the surface area then heat wrapping the manifold a second time and a blanket on a turbo. The idea being i keep heat inside and my engine hatch from flaming. I do intend on raising the hatch at least 6 inches higher. I will run 2 bilge blowers constantly with pick up tubes high inside the hatch in the front and rear of the exhaust side. Last but not least since the sides of the hatch are unused mount a few small fans around the hatch, computer tower cooling sized with a thermal switch to suck in additional air as i dont think the original air scoops are going to take in enough air for a turbo.

Also what side intercooler would you recommend switching to and would changing to a larger turbo help keep cool air in or making sure the turbo is taking in clean cool air?

I dont want what the 4x4 guys call a snorkel inside the deck of the boat but my boat like yours sits high off the water and a cool air intake from the rear of the boat fed off an air scoop would fit.

My boat is also around 5500 lbs. 8ft wide, 21ft low. Modified v planing v hull. Mine does sit higher being a flybridge but its the water giving 99% of resistance not the air.

I'd like to do this to my Playcraft I/O pontoon, it has a 3 liter mercruiser with alpha one outdrive. I have a good spare BHW but the lake where my boat is slipped doesn't sell diesel at any of the marinas on the water so I would have to haul fuel and I am not interested in that.

I have mad respect for the guys that get to pull this off.

What about using ceramic coatings to reduce external surface temperatures of manifolds? Or is heat soak an issue? seeing as the environment is different than a road machine the integrity of the coatings should last a long time.

All Stock said:

What about using ceramic coatings to reduce external surface temperatures of manifolds? Or is heat soak an issue? seeing as the environment is different than a road machine the integrity of the coatings should last a long time.

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This is something I looked into back in my go fast days. The ceramic coating helps keep the heat inside the exhaust, if it's coated inside and out. That helps speed up flow to a small degree. Most stock to mildly modified engines won't notice much of a difference. After running a while, heat soak does become an issue and radiant heat starts to rise, especially in enclosed spaces like engine dog houses. Air flow does help and the exhaust can cool down faster. This helps drag racers that only blast down the track for a few seconds at a time. The one thing that ceramic coating does do extremely well is protect the base metal the exhaust is made from. It can be very difficult to coat the inside of exhaust system parts because of their shape.

I've used it quite a few times. It seems to work well on the outside at keeping temps down. The key is a quality application. A lot of places wont do the inside of a turbo manifold. Its hard to guarantee the bond and they don't want the liability of chunks taking out a wheel. However for corrosion resistance and as a thermal barrier they do the outside.
My question is how well it would work in a marine application where a motor could be pushing 100% duty cycle for long extended periods compared to an auto motive application where a motor will ever only give 100% for a short burst of time as it reaches speed... before it runs out of road or gears lol.. Hence the heat soak and are you then back to square one with heat management.