Low boost and limp mode

Cwray88

New member
Joined
Sep 18, 2018
Location
British Columbia
TDI
2004 Jetta tdi
I have a 2004 tdi Jetta alh and I’ve been experiencing intermittent boost for a few months now. I hade 2 fault codes: p0101 and p0299- MAF and low boost. I replaced the MAF sensor with no change and the codes stayed. I’ve cleaned the intake manifold and egr (may have helped a little bit) but still it’s working fully half the time. I am wondering if anyone knows what the problem is because half the time it feels like the boost will engage around 2.5k rpm but sometimes after I almost redline it the boost will work perfectly for a few hours then randomly will go back to half boost. Has anyone had this problem and know how to fix it? I am lost at this point.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Sounds like sticky vanes. Running it to almost redline is what some call an “Italian” tune up. Done periodically it can help.

Otherwise you could try the oven cleaner method, sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t.

Or pull the turbo and clean it.

You may also have a vacuum leak.

Does the car spew black smoke when accelerating?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You have a boost leak.

Look for oily trails along the charge air tract. Especially at the snap-joint connections (6 of those) and the leading edge of the intercooler core (the air duct rubs a groove in the lower edge).

I use our smoke machine, works FANTASTIC for finding tiny little boost leaks.
 

Cwray88

New member
Joined
Sep 18, 2018
Location
British Columbia
TDI
2004 Jetta tdi
It spews black smoke when accelerating past 3k rpm sometimes a lot of black smoke. I also have found some black oil on the pipe that connect from the turbo to the inter cooler but can’t find a leak. Should I pull it out?
 

Cwray88

New member
Joined
Sep 18, 2018
Location
British Columbia
TDI
2004 Jetta tdi
So I sat under my car working the vnt rod for about 10 minutes it seems pretty stiff I’m not sure if it’s supposed to be that hard to move. Took it for a spin and it was working perfectly for about 20 minutes then went back to half boost.

Must be turbo veins? Would that trigger my MAF sensor code though?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
10 minutes is all it takes to have the bumper cover off, then you can see the intercooler and its connections. Clean off the oil scum and you may see the source of a boost leak, if you do not have access to a smoke machine.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
What makes you say that so quickly?
Because of his experience, he does this for a living. Working everyday on these cars, with some people driving hours to have Brian service their tdi.
 

2000alhVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Location
Silver Spring, MD
TDI
2000 Golf
Because this is my office:

And this is my waiting room:

;)
I understand, which is why I was asking for clarification. Why did you say a boost leak in the ducting rather than something else? How did you determine that so quickly from such little information?

From an engineering standpoint, I wouldn't think it would be a boost leak since OP seems to imply the problem is intermittent. Unless you're saying his plumbing is flexing to reveal and hide the leak repeatedly?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I love engineers. They over analyze. :p

I can only offer the steps I would take if that car came into my shop. Since it isn't actually here, that is all I can do.

A very small boost leak can indeed be intermittent, because the full output of the engine isn't required all of the time. I have fixed countless random limp mode TDIs here that have come in with those exact same two DTCs... often the MAF comes first, then once the boost leak is bad enough the P0299 shows up.

VERY common on the BEW and BHW for this to play out like this.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
I actually sleep pretty well at night with the idea of a permanent issue like a small boost leak causing random symptoms that sometimes result in limp mode, despite where I went to school. :D:D

My "scientific" explanation of why seemingly random things can happen from a static problem like a boost leak would be something along the lines of:

- the ECU getting annoyed enough to actually trigger "limp mode" is a complex "alignment of the planets" of symptoms, some of which we mere mortals have been able to reverse-engineer, some known only to the German engineers what built 'er. We know it's complicated because sometimes limp mode triggers a CEL but often it does not. WTH, Volkswagen?! :)

- half of the systems involved in boost are bolted to the engine, the other half are bolted to the frame, and a bunch of rigid pipes, flexible pipes, and (frankly crappy) clip-and-o-ring joints connect everything together. BEW horse collars, anyone?!

- everything flexes... all day long. Vibration, boost pressure, temperature changes, and probably most significantly the engine twists on its mounts.. for some of us, quite a bit, more often than not. :D

- "how much boost do we need right now vs what can we produce?" is dynamic itself: driver demands, intercooler temperatures, temperature/altitude/weather, engine load (hills, passing, wind)... and it's the delta between the boost the whole system wants vs what the whole system sees that triggers limp mode.

Ergo: small static leak somewhere in the somewhat-convoluted system of pipes and joints gets exacerbated enough during dynamic operating conditions to trigger an algorithm with unknown (to us) parameters. Some of the time. :)

Just my perspective, of course.

And thank you for coming to my TED Talk. :):)
 

2000alhVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Location
Silver Spring, MD
TDI
2000 Golf
I love engineers. They over analyze. :p
I can only offer the steps I would take if that car came into my shop. Since it isn't actually here, that is all I can do.
A very small boost leak can indeed be intermittent, because the full output of the engine isn't required all of the time. I have fixed countless random limp mode TDIs here that have come in with those exact same two DTCs... often the MAF comes first, then once the boost leak is bad enough the P0299 shows up.
I see. Thanks for add the logic behind your diagnosis.

VERY common on the BEW and BHW for this to play out like this.
Did you notice OP has an ALH?
The reason I ask is because my car has these issues pretty similarly.

Also, OP mentions P0299. I looked it up, and it seems very similar to P1556 that my 2000 ALH is giving me. Are these basically the same error, but coded differently on newer cars?

Speaking of boost leaks, does my dirty intercooler look suspicious?

 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The OP lists a 2004 Jetta TDI, which is a BEW here. That is what I was going by.

The ALH tends to have different DTCs, yes. Different animal, and often a slightly different diagnostic strategy is employed.... plus they have no snap-clip connections to be concerned with. They also run less boost.
 
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2000alhVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Location
Silver Spring, MD
TDI
2000 Golf
I actually sleep pretty well at night with the idea of a permanent issue like a small boost leak causing random symptoms that sometimes result in limp mode, despite where I went to school. :D:D

My "scientific" explanation of why seemingly random things can happen from a static problem like a boost leak would be something along the lines of:

- the ECU getting annoyed enough to actually trigger "limp mode" is a complex "alignment of the planets" of symptoms, some of which we mere mortals have been able to reverse-engineer, some known only to the German engineers what built 'er. We know it's complicated because sometimes limp mode triggers a CEL but often it does not. WTH, Volkswagen?! :)

- half of the systems involved in boost are bolted to the engine, the other half are bolted to the frame, and a bunch of rigid pipes, flexible pipes, and (frankly crappy) clip-and-o-ring joints connect everything together. BEW horse collars, anyone?!

- everything flexes... all day long. Vibration, boost pressure, temperature changes, and probably most significantly the engine twists on its mounts.. for some of us, quite a bit, more often than not. :D

- "how much boost do we need right now vs what can we produce?" is dynamic itself: driver demands, intercooler temperatures, temperature/altitude/weather, engine load (hills, passing, wind)... and it's the delta between the boost the whole system wants vs what the whole system sees that triggers limp mode.

Ergo: small static leak somewhere in the somewhat-convoluted system of pipes and joints gets exacerbated enough during dynamic operating conditions to trigger an algorithm with unknown (to us) parameters. Some of the time. :)

Just my perspective, of course.

And thank you for coming to my TED Talk. :):)
Wow. Yep. Makes sense. I didn't consider all, or even most of those variables. I only considered possibly body flex over bumps or turns. The ECU part is especially striking to me as I've noted my thinking in this ECU being particularly "dumb" and inconsistent.
For example, I was making a long highway journey so I quickly unplugged the MAF. I was surprised to see the CEL stayed off for 180 miles until I re-fueled. CEL immediately triggered upon restart, so I determined it needs a restart to go from pending to active. Crazy.

So what is the procedure here? Remove every single piece of boost plumbing and carefully inspect?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
2-trip detection logic, MIL-requests, etc. The EDC15 system IS pretty simple still though. And it simply does not have a bunch of things that other systems use, so if it isn't there, it can't break. Which is why the ALH is so great! :)
 

Cwray88

New member
Joined
Sep 18, 2018
Location
British Columbia
TDI
2004 Jetta tdi
Thank you for all the information. I’m going to be taking the bumper off this weekend to check that oily intercooler pipe.

I’ll let you know the results! I appreciate it
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
For example, I was making a long highway journey so I quickly unplugged the MAF. I was surprised to see the CEL stayed off for 180 miles until I re-fueled. CEL immediately triggered upon restart, so I determined it needs a restart to go from pending to active. Crazy.
My personal theory... and it's just that... is that the OBD2 "diagnostic" port was always "emissions systems compliance first"... meaning it was forced on car manufacturers in 1996 purely to monitor EGR functionality during one of the big air quality pushes.... and kinda remained an emissions thingie with some diagnostics glued on for some time... certainly during the ALH series.

Even now, the logs don't have a real time clock stamp as to "when" the event happened, and still have gaps in terms of what's monitored, what's not, what sets a CEL, what flashes the glow plug light instead... still a mish-mash.

My understanding is that Tesla has taken a fresh look at on-board diagnostics. :)

So what is the procedure here? Remove every single piece of boost plumbing and carefully inspect?
Smoke machine, careful physical inspection for obvious holes/cracks/loose joints, careful physical inspection for oily streaks as OH mentions above, physically tugging on stuff to see if it loosens, basically process of elimination. As is often the case. :)
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yep, the little double lip o-rings can split and leak, they can also leak even without a split. Then in some cases, primarily limited to the turbo outlet on the BHW and the intake flap inlet on the BEW G/J, the two little tabs wear down and cause the metal collar of the charge air tube to simply be unable to stay seated properly in the component to which they are affixed.

But for pesky small leaks, stuff you may not readily see, the smoke machine helps seek them out.

In not much more time than it takes to read this thread, you could have had a BEW G/J entire charge air tract from the turbo to the intake flap off the car and laying apart on the ground. I am not contributing any more to this thread, I've given my advice, hope you find the problem. Nothing limp in my driveway! :D
 
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