NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

N252CE

New member
Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Location
TX
TDI
2012 GTI.. Want a GTI w/TDI
Anyone heard of 2012 TDIs failing lately? I know there's been one that I've seen, but I haven't seen much about any failing for sometime now..

I'm just about to buy a GTI, but I really want a TDI.. Just wondering if I should just bite the bullet and get the TDI..? You have got to figure/hope by the warranty period was up the NHTSA would have come up with some solution. Any thoughts..?
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Anyone heard of 2012 TDIs failing lately? I know there's been one that I've seen, but I haven't seen much about any failing for sometime now..

I'm just about to buy a GTI, but I really want a TDI.. Just wondering if I should just bite the bullet and get the TDI..? You have got to figure/hope by the warranty period was up the NHTSA would have come up with some solution. Any thoughts..?
Why not send an email to VW CC and ask? and see what answer you get about how many 2012s have failed. Or perhaps wait until NHTSA releases VWs responses (and likely updates on failures) to NHTSA's latest IR.

NHTSA does not come up with a solution to a safety defect. It's up to the manufacturer to find a solution. I suppose the ultimate solution would be for the manufacturer to buyback all cars with the safety defect should they not be able to solve the safety issue.

NHTSA investigates whether a safety defect exists. If they deem a safety defect exists and if the manufacturer hasn't done a voluntary recall, NHTSA sends a recall request letter to the manufacturer. If the manufacturer still does not do a recall, the manufacturers can be ordered to do a recall by NHTSA if NHTSA still deems a safety defect exists after public hearings and any new evidence. If the manufacturer still refuses to do a recall, NHTSA can take the manufacturer to court. So, it's your guess whether this process can be completed prior to the expiration of the powertrain warranty should you choose to buy a 2012 CR TDI.:D
 

cristoaca

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2015 VW Golf TDI S
In NHTSA's letter to VW from Oct 7, paragraph 20, letter d caught my attention:

"d. Describe how VW has ensured that the HPFP design in subject vehicles is compatible with diesel fuels sold in the United States and other markets, including, but not limited to a discussion of VW's design margin with respect to the fuel properties VW considers in its evaluations of HPFP performance/durability"

The deadline for VW's response was Dec 16. Hopefully we should have some news soon.
 

53 willys

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Location
Utah
TDI
2010 Sportwagen TDI~LOVE/HATE~
Anyone heard of 2012 TDIs failing lately? I know there's been one that I've seen, but I haven't seen much about any failing for sometime now..

I'm just about to buy a GTI, but I really want a TDI.. Just wondering if I should just bite the bullet and get the TDI..? You have got to figure/hope by the warranty period was up the NHTSA would have come up with some solution. Any thoughts..?
I love my TDI....but if I could do it over I would probaly have bought an older diesel(pre Common rail) or not one at all.....my dealer really took care of me when my HPFP failed..but lots of dealer wont/dont and lets face it, if even 1 2012 had a failure you know they dont have this issue figured out yet....

and is the NHTSA really gonna force a recall? how long would that take?? for me I will be well past my 100k warranty in another 1.5 years and then the risk is on my dime.

CR TDI's are a pretty risky purchase right now IMHO


mines too new and too high miles to sell at this point(I would lose a good chunck of coin) so I'm gonna ride it out...but I would not recomend a new CR TDI to anybody unitl they have publicly announced that they had a HPFP issue and it's been "fixed"

I'm sure others will disagree...but I feel I did my part to offer my CR the best fuel I could get locally or on road trips and it still failed @47k miles...mine was not a misfuel something else took it out. I dont even own a gasoline car so my instinct is diesel only when I'm at the pump...I would be more likely to miss fuel a gasoline car at this point...lol

the failure rate posted here is very limited IMHO...lots of TDI owners dont read forums and dont report failures to the NHTSA(I would not have ever reported my failure to the NHTSA if I did not get the idea from TDICLUB)
I suspect the fail rate is waaaay over 2%-3% but thats just my opinon
thats my .02
 
Last edited:

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
....
Mechanically, the CKRA engine is still an EA113 family (Mk4+ Golf-family) engine - that's right, the CKRA still shares quite a lot with even the ALH. The fuel system is different from the CBEA/CJAA, but I see no reason why the CJAA's successor in Golfs and Jettas (which may well be the CKRA itself) won't get that system as well. The only reason that it's not the case is likely emissions - due to the different injection behavior of the solenoid injectors, VW would likely have to recertify the Golf and Jetta to use the CKRA, and that would cost a LOT of money.
Interesting....not to throw the thread off topic and aside from the legal factors, would a MKIV engine actually bolt in to a MKVI car? I love the MKVI golf, but I don't like the HPFP, or DPF system. :(
 

Rxfire

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Location
Dripperley-Blanco Triangle, TX
TDI
2 each 03 5 speed Jetta wagons, 1 NA Isuzu P'up (a keeper)
That is a good question. Since I like the 2002-2003 ALH Jetta wagons, I had wondered about the interchangeability of an ALH into a 2004-2005 Jetta wagon (replacing the BRM or BEW engine). I suspect the ECU from the ALH would need to transfer, also, but I honestly am guessing there...
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
That is a good question. Since I like the 2002-2003 ALH Jetta wagons, I had wondered about the interchangeability of an ALH into a 2004-2005 Jetta wagon (replacing the BRM or BEW engine). I suspect the ECU from the ALH would need to transfer, also, but I honestly am guessing there...
That's different. What you are talking about is MKIV to MKIV. That is a cake swap although I don't know why you would want to do that swap though. The BEW is not that bad of an engine. BRMs seem to be anther story..
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Although the BRM's big problems can be fixed by installing a BEW cam, I thought.

Mechanically, at least the bottom end of any EA113 engine - for US-spec TDIs, that means ALH, BEW, BRM, CBEA, CJAA, and CKRA - should bolt in with no modifications into any Mk4 or newer car. (And, EA113 engines can also bolt into Mk2 and Mk3 cars after tapping the rear mount holes.)

I believe the Mk5/6 transmission mounting is slightly different from the Mk4, so you'd need to use a Mk5/6 transmission, but that shouldn't be a problem - anything that you'd want that's manual and TDI-compatible is available, between the BRM's transmission, and the various CBEA/CJAA/CKRA transmissions.

I believe, however, that you may run into trouble with clearance for the turbo, in a Mk5 or Mk6 car - the BRM has the turbo in a different place, IIRC. However, a BRM or other Mk5 8v TDI turbo setup should, in theory, bolt onto an ALH or BEW head.

In any case, the electrical hurdles of integrating ALH engine management into a Mk5 or Mk6 environment may make this incredibly impractical. Even with a CAN-capable ECU, quite a few functions won't work any more, or won't integrate properly - including such things as the power steering.

A BRM may integrate better, because its ECU is already designed for the Mk5/6 electrical environment, although there may still be a few missing functions.
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
A BRM may integrate better, because its ECU is already designed for the Mk5/6 electrical environment, although there may still be a few missing functions.

Sorry not ture. The MkV 09 has is very different electrical system than the MKV 10 model.The 10 has the MkVI electrical system.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
There are differences, but how different? I suspect you could still plug a BRM ECU into a 2010, and it would work, albeit with some systems not functioning quite right.
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
It's the problem caused by the problem

> if even 1 2012 had a failure you know they don't have this issue figured out yet....

It's not one issue. It's at least two.

  1. Pumps can fail on properly fueled vehicles.
  2. A pump failure causes massive collateral damage.
Even if problem #1 gets fixed, the hypothetical new superpumps are still apt to fail when your brother-in-law borrows the car and donates a fill-up of RUG.

Unless problem #2 is also fixed, these cars remain potential financial time bombs.

I'd like to replace our PD in 2012 (it will hit 250K miles soon), and a TDI wagen would be the leading candidate but for the HPFP issue. So right now, keeping the PD running is a safer bet.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Although the BRM's big problems can be fixed by installing a BEW cam, I thought.
Mechanically, at least the bottom end of any EA113 engine - for US-spec TDIs, that means ALH, BEW, BRM, CBEA, CJAA, and CKRA - should bolt in with no modifications into any Mk4 or newer car. (And, EA113 engines can also bolt into Mk2 and Mk3 cars after tapping the rear mount holes.)
I believe the Mk5/6 transmission mounting is slightly different from the Mk4, so you'd need to use a Mk5/6 transmission, but that shouldn't be a problem - anything that you'd want that's manual and TDI-compatible is available, between the BRM's transmission, and the various CBEA/CJAA/CKRA transmissions.
I believe, however, that you may run into trouble with clearance for the turbo, in a Mk5 or Mk6 car - the BRM has the turbo in a different place, IIRC. However, a BRM or other Mk5 8v TDI turbo setup should, in theory, bolt onto an ALH or BEW head.
In any case, the electrical hurdles of integrating ALH engine management into a Mk5 or Mk6 environment may make this incredibly impractical. Even with a CAN-capable ECU, quite a few functions won't work any more, or won't integrate properly - including such things as the power steering.
A BRM may integrate better, because its ECU is already designed for the Mk5/6 electrical environment, although there may still be a few missing functions.
I have been thinking about this and Putting a rotary style pump engine in a MKVI would be extremely difficult due to there is no engine management system that would work like you said.

A BRM, with a BEW cam, BRM ECU and harness, and a proper 1 piece flywheel would probably work and would run quite well. Probably could fiddle with the tuning and get close to 50 mpg with it too.

Atr least we know what to do with all the CR cars in a few years when they have blown HPFPs assuming VW does not step up to the place and fix this issue.:p Heck, even if they redesigned the pump so when it fails, there is screens inside to catch the metal and prevent it from going to the rest of the fuel system. That's all they need to do really and should have been done since day one. Having a $1K rare part failure is acceptable to me(same cost as a VE injection pump). Having the same failure cost $7K+ is not. :mad:
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I would say it as:
Knowing that it would cost $1000 to replace a blown fuel pump is acceptable to most VW owners. Having that same replacement cost you $6000 - $10000 due to down stream metal contamination is not.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
That is a good question. Since I like the 2002-2003 ALH Jetta wagons, I had wondered about the interchangeability of an ALH into a 2004-2005 Jetta wagon (replacing the BRM or BEW engine). I suspect the ECU from the ALH would need to transfer, also, but I honestly am guessing there...
Not legal - emissions. When doing an engine retrofit, the engine can't be of an older design than the vehicle.

If you want a 2003 Jetta wagon, just buy one complete with the ALH engine already in it. And the P-D's faults are manageable and are at least under *some* control of the vehicle's owner. It's not worth back-dating the engine. Even if you bought a P-D Jetta wagon and had a camshaft/lifter issue ... it would cost more to replace the engine and solve all the back-dating issues (if it is even legally possible, which it might not be) than to simply replace the camshaft and lifters, and keep on driving - but with a suitable engine oil this time.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Have there been any HPFP failures in the new 2012 tdi assembled in Tennessee?
As far as we know, the best answer is "not yet". These have only been on the market for a short while, so it is probably too soon to pass judgement one way or the other. We shall see what happens in the next year or so.

Have Fun!

Don
 

South Coast Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Location
Mattapoisett, MA
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI wagon
It may be a horrendous design, but I find it truly difficult to believe that a pump designed by the leading diesel systems manufacturer (with a good reputation) for millions of engines (Ford, GM, VW, Audi etc. etc.) this day and age would make its way to market being horrendously designed.

Are you old enough to remember the Audi 5000 of the mid- eighties? Thousands had failures of many systems such as transmission, A/C, engine. Many drivers consider Audi to be well-engineered cars.
 

N252CE

New member
Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Location
TX
TDI
2012 GTI.. Want a GTI w/TDI
...Just wondering if I should just bite the bullet and get the TDI..?

Thanks for all that chimed in.. You guys just echoed my feelings.
I"m now trying to close a deal on a GTI... Sad... but that's the way it is.

Thanks again. Merry Christmas and have a great New Years!
 

Rxfire

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Location
Dripperley-Blanco Triangle, TX
TDI
2 each 03 5 speed Jetta wagons, 1 NA Isuzu P'up (a keeper)
GoFaster--thanks for the illegality issue--you said:

"Not legal - emissions. When doing an engine retrofit, the engine can't be of an older design than the vehicle.

If you want a 2003 Jetta wagon, just buy one complete with the ALH engine already in it. And the P-D's faults are manageable and are at least under *some* control of the vehicle's owner. It's not worth back-dating the engine. Even if you bought a P-D Jetta wagon and had a camshaft/lifter issue ... it would cost more to replace the engine and solve all the back-dating issues (if it is even legally possible, which it might not be) than to simply replace the camshaft and lifters, and keep on driving - but with a suitable engine oil this time."
____

I guess my point is, if a 2004 or 2005 Jetta wagon had a completely blown engine, could it be replaced with an ALH? I would not pull a working engine to do that, but, given the choice of a replacement engine...and the availability of ALH's, I would prefer the ALH.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
... and it would be illegal.

That is, of course, a completely separate matter from whether any officialdom actually (1) found out, and (2) cared. But it's still illegal. If you have periodic emissions inspections in your area, and that involves a visual inspection (most do), and the inspector knows what he is looking at, a back-dated engine swap could be a big problem. If your periodic emissions inspection involves an opacity test, the ALH does not run as clean and may fail a test that the P-D could pass. Remember, there was a big change in emission regulations in 2004, and this should be reflected in the emission requirements for the periodic inspection. A 2004 car should have tighter requirements than a 2003. A 2003 engine in a 2004 car will still be called upon to pass the 2004 requirements ... and it may not.

I wouldn't do it. For the amount of headaches, both technical and legal, I just don't see it as a worthwhile exercise.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
... and it would be illegal.

That is, of course, a completely separate matter from whether any officialdom actually (1) found out, and (2) cared. But it's still illegal. If you have periodic emissions inspections in your area, and that involves a visual inspection (most do), and the inspector knows what he is looking at, a back-dated engine swap could be a big problem. If your periodic emissions inspection involves an opacity test, the ALH does not run as clean and may fail a test that the P-D could pass. Remember, there was a big change in emission regulations in 2004, and this should be reflected in the emission requirements for the periodic inspection. A 2004 car should have tighter requirements than a 2003. A 2003 engine in a 2004 car will still be called upon to pass the 2004 requirements ... and it may not.

I wouldn't do it. For the amount of headaches, both technical and legal, I just don't see it as a worthwhile exercise.
I thought from a legality issue, those types of things being discussed here on TDI club are verbotten? Kind of like tunes, modifying the exhaust system so it pollutes more by removal of or deactivating the DPF or cat are No Go's.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I'm POINTING OUT that it is illegal. It is a sidetrack, because this whole discussion is not even remotely close to being about the main topic of discussion in this thread. Let's return to that topic, please. If someone finds out something new ... post up. Let's cut off the discussion about P-D's and ALH's and engine retrofits and all such matters - they don't belong in this thread.
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
Not legal - emissions. When doing an engine retrofit, the engine can't be of an older design than the vehicle.
Depends on what legal entities your talking about. CARB and many states require that the vehicle meet the latest emissions requirements, either for the chassis or engine.

IIRC EPA requires certification for the model year of manufacture for the vehicle and fuel type.

However not sure how this related to HPFP failures though.
 

no-blue-screen

TDI Nut
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Location
Maryland
TDI
TDI
I'm POINTING OUT that it is illegal. It is a sidetrack, because this whole discussion is not even remotely close to being about the main topic of discussion in this thread. Let's return to that topic, please. If someone finds out something new ... post up. Let's cut off the discussion about P-D's and ALH's and engine retrofits and all such matters - they don't belong in this thread.
Sidetrack is putting it lightly. I completely agree. It is hijacking this thread, causes clutter and confusion, and is illegal.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
As far as we know, the best answer is "not yet". These have only been on the market for a short while, so it is probably too soon to pass judgement one way or the other. We shall see what happens in the next year or so.

Have Fun!

Don
I think by December 2012, we might know more, or have a few samples. If summer heat is an issue, I'd look for some failures to start showing up in September, and if conversion to winter grade dry fuel is an issue, then we should start seeing some failures in October and November, if history is going to repeat itself. These tdi passats are not being made in the numbers the jetta, and sportswagen were in 2009, so the sample size will be a lot smaller, me thinks. I believe VW made almost 50,000 TDI's for the US market in 2009.
 

CedarPark68

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Location
Texas
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI Wagen
The links to the document repository (NHTSA) are no longer working, at least the ones I saved from back in October.

Has anyone seen any updates regarding the December 2011 due response from VW?
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
The links to the document repository (NHTSA) are no longer working, at least the ones I saved from back in October.

Has anyone seen any updates regarding the December 2011 due response from VW?
I see all 13 old documents. There are no new documents listed.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/documentList.xhtml?docId=EA11003&docType=INV

Go to safecar.gov under Vehicle Owners, Defect Investigations enter EA1003 under NHTSA Action Number quick search. The summary should come up and the link to the documents is at the bottom of the page.
 

CedarPark68

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Location
Texas
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI Wagen
I see all 13 old documents. There are no new documents listed.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/documentList.xhtml?docId=EA11003&docType=INV

Go to safecar.gov under Vehicle Owners, Defect Investigations enter EA1003 under NHTSA Action Number quick search. The summary should come up and the link to the documents is at the bottom of the page.
Thanks! I had some links saved that didn't work and I went back to the October posts and many of those links didn't work either ( 404 s ).
 
Top