Lumpy idle when cold

RichyP

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2000
Location
Warrington, Cheshire, England
Hi, i need some advice please!
OK I expect this post to be moved but I was not too sure where to post this but I need some techies to see this and it is not (unfortunately!) a TDI.
Anyway my diesel Astra (GM) non turbo (IDI) idles lumpily or 'hunts' when cold for about a minute and the engine moves back and forth a little on its mountings.
It has recently had new glowplugs and reconditioned injectors fitted.
Anyway I know non of you may be familiar with this engine but I am sure it is a common diesel engine symptom. It is suggested in Diesel Car magazine that it can be due to poor compression on 1 or 2 cylinders.....I do not like the sound of this! Could someone please explain what that means? There is no excessive smoke and it runs fine and starts instantly every time.
So any ideas? It is probably nothing to worry about, I hope!
Thanks!
 
M

mickey

Guest
I'm not sure, but you may have just coined a new word: "Lumpily." I like it!


OK. Let's get down to business:

First of all, is this a new car? (To you, anyway?) Or have you owned it for a while and these symptoms have developed recently? I must ask, because my '87 Mercedes turbodiesel is as healthy as a horse but she runs like a crippled mule for several seconds after startup. And that's in the middle of the summer during a heat wave! (I can't wait to see what winter is like.) If you just purchased the vehicle its certainly possible that this is normal behaviour. (Notice how I threw that superfluous "u" in there so you'd feel at home.)

If these symptoms have developed recently then the list of possible culprits is mercifully short. You can eliminate "ignition" or "mixture" problems right away since they are irrelavent to diesel engines. That leaves only glow plugs, air intake, fuel injection and exhaust.

If the engine fires immediately when cold, but then idles poorly, I would imagine that the glow plugs are probably working correctly. Otherwise the motor would require a lot of cranking to start. One or two bad glow plugs could cause the symptoms you've described, though. It's simple to test the glow plugs using a multimeter. Unfortunately, I don't know how.
But give 'em a few minutes. Sooty, Brodie or Christi will chime in soon. They'll know how to do it. (So would any number of people over HERE, too, but most are smart enough to go to bed when they get tired. I'm staying up eating a microwave turkey pot pie and talking to YOU instead.) Just because the plugs were recently replaced doesn't mean one or more aren't faulty. The fact that they're new means they'd be the FIRST things I'd check! Any time you change something, and another problem suddenly appears, there's a strong chance that it's not coincidental.

If the glow plug system, including the relay, checks out then the next question is: How does the motor run once it gets over its initial shimmy 'n shake routine? If it runs strong, and idles smoothly (for a diesel) then serious internal mechanical problems are unlikely. Bad compression in a couple of cylinders wouldn't go away...the poor idle would continue. And it would almost certainly be accompanied by excessive oil consumption as it leaks past the worn rings or valve guides.

If it's not glow plugs and it's not an internal mechanical problem, then it must be a fuel injection issue. (Clogged intake or exhaust would cause severe lack of power, and probably a lot of black smoke, but not the symptoms you described.) Again, the fact that the injectors were recently changed might be a clue. One of them might be faulty. But this isn't a strong possibility, because a bad injector would remain "bad" once the engine is warmed up. One thing to consider, though, is that one of the injectors (or the fuel circuit leading to it) might be bleeding off pressure after the car is shut down. It might take a few seconds for it to "clear" and begin working properly when you start the car. I know this can happen to some Mercedes gasoline injectors.

If I had to venture a guess I'd say that the glow plug system has a fault somewhere. I'm led to that guess by the fact that the problem seems to cure itself after about a minute of stumbling and shaking. A cold diesel engine, without glow plug assistance, is a very cranky beast. The fuel doesn't want to ignite, and when it DOES it tends to explode violently. And because the individual cylinders will warm at different rates the result is a very unbalanced and unhappy idle. (Does it smooth out a lot if you rev the engine during the "stumbling" period? And does revving the engine for a few seconds seem to shorten the duration of the "stumbling"? If so, that would also point to glow plugs because revving the engine means more rapid compression of the intake air and hence higher temperatures at the moment when the fuel is injected.)

-mickey
 

T5TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
May 25, 1999
Location
Cornwall England
TDI
T5 Transporter 2.5
Hey Mickey, it's 7 am and it's already 9th Sept here!

Richy, I agree with Mickey. But I'm really a petrol mechanic- Christi is your man.

Enjoy the turkey pot pie Mickey!
 

RichyP

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2000
Location
Warrington, Cheshire, England
Blimey you guys are quick with a response!
Well the car is not new to me, it has 90,000 miles on the clock and I only changed the glow plugs to see if it improved matters. However the thing is that the engine in not running roughly as such, just that for a minute after start up the car rocks forwards and backwards very slightly but if I drive straight off it seems to go just fine, no hesitation or anything. If I leave the car to idle for a minute it suddenly stops and it idles just fine.
I am probably worrying unneccesarily here but it has only done it for a few months now and not straight after the new injectors were fitted.
Anyway I will be testing the glowplugs as soon as I find out how with the old multimeter as that is like you say the most likely cause.
Recently I asked the local mechanic about this and he reckoned it was a sticking EGR valve. I was not sure about that because on this engine the EGR system does not operate until the thermostat opens. Besides I have now disconnected the vacuum pipe from the EGR valve, no more soot in my manifold thank you! (and it made no difference to the idling!)
Later I will try revving the engine a bit from cold to see if this makes the idle smoother more soon. (revving that thing cold will please the neighbours!)
Thanks again!
PS there is a profile of the car at http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/Forum11/HTML/000032.html



[This message has been edited by RichyP (edited September 09, 2000).]
 

vwchris

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Location
Oshawa, Ontario,Canada
Sounds like you have a corroded connection somewhere in your glow plug wiring (assuming that the plugs are new and working). You should take the wires off the plugs and check to see if the connections are rusted, and if they are, file them smooth. I have an old '79 diesel Rabbit (Golf in the UK) that was starting on three cylinders and idling poorly until the fourth kicked in because the connector to the glowplug was rusted and not allowing good current to flow. There's some sort of material that you can put on the electrical connections after you file them smooth that will prevent them from rusting again but I can't remember the name of it.
 
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