Help me decide on tuning options (egr, etc.)

I've been in touch with a couple of our esteemed tuners and would like some input before making decision. My plan is to go with a stage 2-3 tune on all stock hardware. (I know many people recommend nozzles first, but I'd like to use mine until they're worn, but still gain some power/efficiency/fun in the meantime). When I have more money and/or need for clutch upgrade, I'll consider further mods. Car has about 112k on it with no history of any problems. I've owned it since 74k. Here are my options so far, followed by a few questions:

• 
  Most likely: RC2/RC3 ALH Switchable tune. RC3 tops out at about 18 or 18.5 (safe limit of VNT15), RC2 about 17/17.5 boost. I'll see what I enjoy driving more and also have the RC2 option in case I have boost spikes or clutch slip I need to sort out, or for road trips, winter trips, etc. I may even opt for switchable Stock/RC2/RC3 if I can get all three of those on my ECU with no downsides. Also, March Madness sale is coming up for 20% off, so that is a bonus. [I would have gone with an ASV tune if I had a second ECU, but don't want to hassle with that now, also emissions readiness.]

• 
  TDTuning Stage 3. About 17.5 boost. About the same as RC2, keeping stock turbo well within what is safe.

• 
  Malone Stage 1. Not really leaning towards this for the time being. The only positive might be the dynamic EGR (which I would like some input on below).

Questions & considerations:

• EGR: I know traditional thinking is that EGR is "bad" b/c it sends soot back into your engine and tends to block the intake over time. Presumably, this seems to be less of an issue now with ULSD, and on top of that I use biodiesel blends which keep things cleaner. I know in colder climates, some like to keep EGR on, or at least "dynamic" EGR, to help engine get warm and stay warm, while others think there is no difference. RC prefers to just turn it off, TD keep it on, Malone has dynamic option. Living in SoCal, I do also care about air quality and my impact. What are the downsides or upsides to EGR on/off? My plan originally was to have RC3 maybe with EGR off, and RC2 with dynamic or EGR on. Note: I live in a state that tests for OBDII readiness, but I think RC tunes have no issue with that. TD wants to keep it on for that reason.

• How likely is it that I will have an overboost issue with RC3 on stock hardware? Fueling will already be limited by stock nozzles, and as far as I can tell my VNT is not sticking and previous WOT logs have not shown any issues. I have VCDS and SGII, and plan on doing a few VCDS logs once I have the tune to confirm there are no issues (and I'll install a boost valve or go to RC2 if I do).

• Lastly, I know that RC switchable tunes write the different programs to the Auto, Manual and 4-motion blocks of the ECU (?). Any known issues with that? ABS, Cruise control, etc.? I've read only that in the auto block, the clutch will not disengage CC (I usually use my brake for that anyway). Any other known issues?

EDIT: Just to update this thread. I ended up going with Kerma tuning. Charlie gave me a great deal on tune + q-loader and has been helpful to work with (including answering my many questions and offering feedback on before/after logs, etc.). The convenience of having the loader and future re-tunes for upgrades was important to me.

Charlie made me a tune file that includes my stock tune + 2 tunes (3 total) that I can switch via VCDS soft coding (everything works, cruise, etc.). I can't compare to other tuners, but I love how the car drives with both tunes (one delivers a little more go). Max boost seems set around 17.5. Very smooth and the power is just there when it wasn't before, especially when passing cars, up hills, etc. I only wish I drove more than a few times a week so I could enjoy it more.

"Stage" numbers compared between tuners is meaningless. Different tuners have different philosophies and ways of going about it. The goal of a good tune is always to control the given hardware for optimal performance. If you are sticking with stock hardware then any of the three you mention has a tune optimized for it, pretty simple. Don't get hung up on stage #s though.

A5INKY said:

"Stage" numbers compared between tuners is meaningless. Different tuners have different philosophies and ways of going about it. The goal of a good tune is always to control the given hardware for optimal performance. If you are sticking with stock hardware then any of the three you mention has a tune optimized for it, pretty simple. Don't get hung up on stage #s though.

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Thanks. I'm aware of that, that's why I gave the boost numbers, though I didn't find that info for Malone stage 1. Would you happen to know the boost on Malone Stage 1? He requires nozzles for 1.5, so that is not an option for the time being.

Malone stage 1 requests 17.5 PSI and pushes fueling duration as far as Malone deems safe while maintaining a very clean air:fuel ratio. What is safe PSI for a VNT15 varies depending on who you talk to.

Reason for the nozzle requirement for any stage higher, is that stage 1's relatively long injection duration coupled with bigger nozzles would result in not only too much smoke, but also potential for too high EGTs. With Malone tuning on stock hardware, stage 1 makes more power than stage 2 or 3 with same stock hardware.

Hardware and ECU tuning have to work together. Malone simply chooses to only offer one strong (but clean) tune for stock hardware.

A5INKY said:

Malone stage 1 requests 17.5 PSI and pushes fueling duration as far as Malone deems safe while maintaining a very clean air:fuel ratio. What is safe PSI for a VNT15 varies depending on who you talk to.

Reason for the nozzle requirement for any stage higher, is that stage 1's relatively long injection duration coupled with bigger nozzles would result in not only too much smoke, but also potential for too high EGTs. With Malone tuning on stock hardware, stage 1 makes more power than stage 2 or 3 with same stock hardware.

Hardware and ECU tuning have to work together. Malone simply chooses to only offer one strong (but clean) tune for stock hardware.

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Thanks, that is helpful. Sounds about equivalent to the others. What are your thoughts on EGR?

I have had RC1,RC2,RC3 with the stock turbo and I liked RC3 the best for the intangible of how the tune works and improves drivability fun. With PP520's and RC3 I dynoed at 138 hp and I can't remember the peak torque.

Of course now I have a bigger turbo, FMIC, Wavetrac LSD and RC4 is a blast. Of course I did get a Reckless Driving ticket: 134 mph in a 70 speed limit, but the nice judge lowered it to Careless driving with one year probation + $685 fine.

That is a hot topic. Frankly, I'm not a fan of TDI EGR systems. However, you said you need to maintain emissions compliance so seems that keeping it is a must for you. The dynamic option would keep it active with a cold engine but shut it off once coolant heats up to over 150F. For mildly tuned cars like yours, the effect (positive or negative) of EGR is pretty negligible IMO. Just make sure your intake manifold is relatively clean.

Curious Chris said:

I have had RC1,RC2,RC3 with the stock turbo and I liked RC3 the best for the intangible of how the tune works and improves drivability fun. With PP520's and RC3 I dynoed at 138 hp and I can't remember the peak torque.

Of course now I have a bigger turbo, FMIC, Wavetrac LSD and RC4 is a blast. Of course I did get a Reckless Driving ticket: 134 mph in a 70 speed limit, but the nice judge lowered it to Careless driving with one year probation + $685 fine.

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Did you have to do anything for overboost with RC3 on your stock turbo (VNT adjustment or boost valve)?

SFHGolfTDI said:

Did you have to do anything for overboost with RC3 on your stock turbo (VNT adjustment or boost valve)?

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The stock VNT turbo is a twitchy turbo prone to overboost. Yes i had a Dawes Device boost limiter that trimmed the boost to 18.

FWIW, the major difference people seem to cite on the ASV software is the timing maps. Those can always be added to the original file so you get the good without the bad.

vwmikel said:

FWIW, the major difference people seem to cite on the ASV software is the timing maps. Those can always be added to the original file so you get the good without the bad.

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Mike, interesting. Can you elaborate? (PM is fine also.)

Bump. Looking for more feedback an EGR. Why should I keep, or why not? I'm not finding lots of good information at the moment besides the conventional wisdom of getting rid of it.

Also, any feedback from people who have run stock nozzles and turbo with a 18 psi tune and whether they needed a boost valve or VNT actuator adjustment.

You're probably better off calling tuners/vendors and talking to them instead of trying to crowdsource answers. Get the straight dope right from the source instead of a bunch of random answers from those who can generally only speculate based on what they've been told. "Dealers" will likewise repeat what they've been told in order to make a (re)sale. Sometimes I think we are listening to an amsoil or amway pitch for an MLM.

One thing is for sure, there is always a lot of smoke and mirrors flying around these forums regarding tuning, lots of hype and "testimonials" and "call so and so he's a good guy" and very little else. Perhaps that is what a forum is supposed to be all about, in the natural order of things. If that astroturfing is the kind of "info" you want you want to use to base your decision, I guess that's your prerogative, but you may be better served by talking to the actual folks doing the work, who will actually be accountable to you.

And now for a straight answer to your simple question from a "dealer" who also works on these cars day in and day out.

VNT actuator adjustment is either right or wrong. It is not dependent on the tune (stock or performance) in any way, shape or form. Boostvalves can be useful if a tune is a bit overfuelled or not quite right, but a tune that is designed for your hardware should not require one.

KERMA said:

..."Dealers" will likewise repeat what they've been told in order to make a (re)sale. Sometimes I think we are listening to an amsoil or amway pitch for an MLM...

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Thinly veiled flaming reported.

A5INKY, thanks for the straight answer.

Kerma, I have actually been in personal contact with several of the tuners and have an idea of what I want. I'm looking for specific answers and/or advice to a few specific questions from real world experience. Namely, EGR, overboost, technicalities of multiple tunes on an ECU. Those questions are in my first post and a few follow-ups. While the ECU question is probably easily answered by the tuners, I do want to hear some real-world experience or opinions on the other questions as well.

If you can wait a week or 2. I will be dynoing a few cars with Jeffs RC stage 1-3 and Mikes TD tuning stage 1-3 on the same cars.
And my 2002 Jetta Automatic RC stage 1, TD tuning stage 1 and CNG injection added.
If any other tuners wish to send out some ECM to swap out for testing let me know. I will post how the day go,s I am renting the dyno for the day near by.
Bob Mann

Bob, I would absolutely be interested in hearing these results. I will likely not have a tune before then anyway. Please post an update here or link to a new thread when you've done these dynos. Are the cars being tested all stock or do they have other mods?

KERMA said:

You're probably better off calling tuners/vendors and talking to them instead of trying to crowdsource answers.

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Seems to be a common response to ever tech question you get asked on here. I guess it is always nice to have a captive audience that can't hear what others have to say to a response.

CNGVW said:

If you can wait a week or 2. I will be dynoing a few cars with Jeffs RC stage 1-3 and Mikes TD tuning stage 1-3 on the same cars.
And my 2002 Jetta Automatic RC stage 1, TD tuning stage 1 and CNG injection added.

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Bob, sounds like a great test! I look forward to the results. Will you also be running VCDS logs so that we can compare boost, fueling and timing?

Max power is great, but if this comes at the expense of a lot of timing and high cylinder pressures it may not be the best long term solution. Just a thought before others jump on your findings!

I plan to go over the cars setting a few days before the dyno testing.
Like timing ,actuator setting and working freely, IQ. The cars do have some small MODs and are driving every day. I will log them too.
Bob Mann

Still looking for feedback on EGR . . . PMs are fine too if you're shy. I want some solid perspectives on how sending exhaust gas back into the intake for a second burn is or is not harmful, effects on performance, air pollution, especially after ULSD . . . I'm very torn on this one and am not finding anything besides the conventional wisdom of "delete it" out there. Not too much analysis though. Is it as simple as its just bad for the engine and good for emissions?

ULSD or not EGR will clog your intake when mixed with oil from the crankcase breather.

As you live in CA I wouldn't worry too much about warm up times.

Just delete your EGR.

CNGVW said:

I plan to go over the cars setting a few days before the dyno testing.
Like timing ,actuator setting and working freely, IQ. The cars do have some small MODs and are driving every day. I will log them too.
Bob Mann

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Bob, do you have a date set for these tests?

I personally have Kerma Tuning and am really happy with it! It's not a cookie cut stage one stage 2 etc it's made custom for each customer.
Charlie takes the information you give him and emails the tune usually same day if not next at the latest (for me anyways) they usually like to keep emissions intact and working. But I am sure they will get you what you want! If your not happy with what you get all you have to do is send an email with what you want till your happy!
Just my 2 cents!


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fostertdi said:

I personally have Kerma Tuning and am really happy with it! It's not a cookie cut stage one stage 2 etc it's made custom for each customer.
Charlie takes the information you give him and emails the tune usually same day if not next at the latest (for me anyways) they usually like to keep emissions intact and working. But I am sure they will get you what you want! If your not happy with what you get all you have to do is send an email with what you want till your happy!
Just my 2 cents!

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Thanks, yes I'm looking into Kerma as well.

Just to update this thread. I ended up going with Kerma tuning. Charlie gave me a great deal on tune + q-loader and has been helpful to work with (including answering my many questions and offering feedback on before/after logs, etc.). The convenience of having the loader and future re-tunes for upgrades was important to me.

Charlie made me a tune file that includes my stock tune + 2 tunes (3 total) that I can switch via VCDS soft coding (everything works, cruise, etc.). I can't compare to other tuners, but I love how the car drives with both tunes (one delivers a little more go). Max boost seems set around 17.5. Very smooth and the power is just there when it wasn't before, especially when passing cars, up hills, etc. I only wish I drove more than a few times a week so I could enjoy it more.

I'll report back when I have gone through my first tank on any FE gains, etc. But looking very good so far though given all the WOT logs I've been doing, and hammering on it just for fun.

My first tank gave me 46.4 mpg. This was in mixed driving with about B80 biodiesel blend in the tank and almost 20 WOT runs for VCDS logs. While the MPG number is consistent with or better than what I usually get, I would say given that I was driving like I stole it for much of this first tank after the tune, this was pretty good. Hoping to break 50mpg on highway trips.

SFHGolfTDI, what nozzles are you running, and could you comment on the general power curve (relative to stock performance)?

I am pretty sure what tune I want, but have yet to decide on nozzles (I have three different possibilities).

UhOh said:

SFHGolfTDI, what nozzles are you running, and could you comment on the general power curve (relative to stock performance)?
I am pretty sure what tune I want, but have yet to decide on nozzles (I have three different possibilities).

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I still have stock nozzles. If I were you, I'd look closely at DLC1019s from Kerma or DBW. They seem like the best all around nozzle for everyone except hardcore power modders. That's what I'll get when I do nozzles.

As far as power, with this tune I get very nice pull from 1800 to redline. I'm still working out a slight dip in my boost log after the initial spike, but to be honest it is not something perceptible to me when driving (see one of my other threads). It is not tune related, probably a slight actuator adjustment.

I was leaning hard toward the 1019s, but someone told me that they'd be overkill for a 1.5 Malone tune and that DLC520s would be better. I MAY venture into an stage 2 Malone, but am just not sure: whatever I do I need to do to BOTH cars, and I need to keep it suitable for my wife. Someone else claims that 764s can handle stock and quite a ways up. I know that I want DLC, and that I'll have them professionally mounted and balanced and calibrated (with injectors). The cost differential isn't all that much between any of them. I just want something that is versatile, something that can deliver both performance and fuel economy based on "demand."