Max realistic power of ALH/BEW/BRM

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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A friend of mine wants to put an ALH or BEW in his Passat B1 he just bought recently. He keeps talking crazy about getting one of these engines to put out 290whp and 500lb ft of torque, and I keep telling him it's not possible.

So with that said, what are the highest realistic numbers for HP/torque these motors can achieve, and also getting them to last beyond 5K miles?
 

flee

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Chatsworth, CA
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Points for originality at least.
Those numbers may be theoretically possible but why in a 40 year old car?
To me it would be cooler to take the many thousands of dollars it would take to
get even close and max out the 70's era original engine and body. Just my $.02.;)
 

ketchupshirt88

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i dont consider myself knowledgeable enough so i cant speak for the PD motors. Other than seeing darkside's drag videos... and god only knows how much time and money is under those hoods.

but your friend better have deeeep pockets to do that on a VE motor. it can and has been done, but the cost gets exponentially bigger when you do bottom end work which is typically needed somewhere around double the stock power.

thats not a rule or anything, just something ive noticed as far as when ppl decide they need to do rods and pistons.

another consideration is the clutch/trans. i dunno what kind of tranny he was going to put into a B1 but anything past 450ft lbs is just asking to wreck gearboxes.

without opening up the bottom end, i would say an ALH can do 180-200hp. The PD's 200hp+. im sure those numbers can be stretched upward, but to be on the safe side of reliable, thats my opinion

last thing i would say is that a B1 dasher is ~800lbs lighter than an A5 jetta that the BEW/BRM came in. he doesnt need 290hp and 500tq to make it move pretty fast. i think at 180-200HP, most ppl would be pretty happy with its quickness.
 

turbobrick240

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If he wants to make that power with a single turbo, it's going to be very laggy with not much happening below 3000 rpm.
 

vtpsd

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I think you can make that horsepower creatively on a stock ALH with lowered compression and a big single, I can't imagine being able to make 500 ft/lbs on a stock ALH though.

Look up the thread by p0wer and his 1z. People say you can't, but then there are people who have done it. I think he is 360whp on a lowered compression stock 1z long block. I'm sure its pretty laggy.

You can definitely get over 200whp on a stock VE engine.
 

ketchupshirt88

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You can definitely get over 200whp on a stock VE engine.
Sure, i know there's several on here. in fact yours is probably around there with a he211 and race520's, but how much higher would you go without doing rods and pistons?

In my opinion though, going past that point on a VE means either beefing up the bottom end or moving the power band higher up in the RPM range.

Its not the horsepower that kills bottom ends, its high peak cylinder pressures when you try to make tons of torque way down low.

i think F_U_B was concerned with this on his compounded ALH because it made its torque so early on.
 

vtpsd

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I probably wouldnt want to push a whole lot more torque down low than it does now. I would, however, consider doing a bigger single and pushing the power band up for more HP, but similar torque.
I dont have any plans to do anything though, since its pretty fun where it is.
 

ketchupshirt88

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I probably wouldnt want to push a whole lot more torque down low than it does now. I would, however, consider doing a bigger single and pushing the power band up for more HP, but similar torque.
I dont have any plans to do anything though, since its pretty fun where it is.
thats kinda what i was thinking...OP's friend should save himself a ton of dough and stop at 200ish. you dont need to have 290hp/500tq in a small car to have it be a blast to drive.

if he really insists on making that much power, its been done but he's got some reading to do...
 

pkhoury

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thats kinda what i was thinking...OP's friend should save himself a ton of dough and stop at 200ish. you dont need to have 290hp/500tq in a small car to have it be a blast to drive.

if he really insists on making that much power, its been done but he's got some reading to do...
Which is exactly what I told him to do. His dream is to put a Holset HX40 turbo on a TDI.

I know there's this thread - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=277494 - but I don't think much is said about that turbo. Either way, I can't imagine what RPM you'd need before you start seeing what that turbo is capable of on a VE or PD engine.
 

ketchupshirt88

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oh lord, thats way too big for a street capable TDI. HX30 is even a bit big for a street car.

if he wants to do a holset wastegate turbo, he should be looking at the HE2xx turbos. HE221 flows enough for almost 240hp if i recall correctly
 

kooyajerms

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hold on hold, how did your friend find a real B1 in good condition?! Show us pictures , well unless you just mean a dasher. Bleh nevermind.


Anyways here's the Passerati smokin' em with the biturbo syncro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m--yfrVAlMY

250whp and 450 torque isn't that difficult to get to on a single that doesn't lag horribly, I was close before I gave up on it, and never went back to the dyno
200whp though is the much cheaper place to be with a stock longblock and add-ons.
 

pkhoury

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hold on hold, how did your friend find a real B1 in good condition?! Show us pictures , well unless you just mean a dasher. Bleh nevermind.
I stand corrected, because he corrected me. It is a Dasher. I'm not familiar with a VW diesel that old. Is that a B1, or something entirely different?

Anyways here's the Passerati smokin' em with the biturbo syncro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m--yfrVAlMY
Nice link. Totally smoked that Ferrari in the second link.
250whp and 450 torque isn't that difficult to get to on a single that doesn't lag horribly, I was close before I gave up on it, and never went back to the dyno
200whp though is the much cheaper place to be with a stock longblock and add-ons.
 

crazyrunner33

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The BHW is the engine he should be on the look out for. After taking care of the BSM and cam, it'll be the best starting point for his money pit.
 

pkhoury

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hold on hold, how did your friend find a real B1 in good condition?! Show us pictures , well unless you just mean a dasher. Bleh nevermind.
I still like the words of wisdom my tuner told me - just because you can modify this car, doesn't mean it's a good idea.



 

djrhetoric

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Put in a 1.6 or 1.9 IDI with a Giles pump and a K14/K24/T3 turbo. It'll really wake it up without the need to reinforce the entire drivetrain of the car.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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Put in a 1.6 or 1.9 IDI with a Giles pump and a K14/K24/T3 turbo. It'll really wake it up without the need to reinforce the entire drivetrain of the car.
Would it also work if he put in the ALH motor I'm trying to sell in that car? I don't know how long he wants me to hold on to it for, but I'd love to sell it and get it off my driveway.
 

Owain@malonetuning

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Wouldn't go backwards with a k24/T3 on an ALH. I'd skip over the K14, but a K24/T3 AAZ at 10 PSI would be plenty to get him on the road then you can dabble from there. Plenty of power at 15-22 PSI, ran a T3 AAZ at 12 myself with no intercooler and it was a solid setup, simple and functional.

Past 26-28 PSI things get very expensive, I personally wouldn't go past a 1756 since you could buy a beater E36 or something for the price difference of the next 50HP.
 

djrhetoric

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Wouldn't go backwards with a k24/T3 on an ALH. I'd skip over the K14, but a K24/T3 AAZ at 10 PSI would be plenty to get him on the road then you can dabble from there. Plenty of power at 15-22 PSI, ran a T3 AAZ at 12 myself with no intercooler and it was a solid setup, simple and functional.

Past 26-28 PSI things get very expensive, I personally wouldn't go past a 1756 since you could buy a beater E36 or something for the price difference of the next 50HP.
Agree, Owain. I was only recommending those turbos with a 1.6 or 1.9 IDI. If ALH, a VNT17 with BHW manifold would be nice and not destroy the bottom end / driveline and be quite fun to haul around in.
 

turbobrick240

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Which is exactly what I told him to do. His dream is to put a Holset HX40 turbo on a TDI.

I know there's this thread - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=277494 - but I don't think much is said about that turbo. Either way, I can't imagine what RPM you'd need before you start seeing what that turbo is capable of on a VE or PD engine.

Forget that Holset. I think the best turbo for 290hp would be a Garrett GTD2060vz. That turbo should have very little lag compared to stock.
 

pkhoury

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Now he's talking about using a Borg Warner GM-1 on the diesel motor on his Dasher. Of course, I couldn't help but roll my eyes and laugh.
 
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