Dieselgate: The GM version

20IndigoBlue02 said:

Watergate is a hotel.

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Sent from my mobile look-at device

\/\/0J0 said:

Sent from my mobile look-at device

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Sorry, your fail gif is a fail. Maybe you should research the Watergate scandal that led Richard Nixon to resign as President. It has nothing to do with water.

20IndigoBlue02 said:

Sorry, your fail gif is a fail. Maybe you should research the Watergate scandal that led Richard Nixon to resign as President. It has nothing to do with water.

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That is my point exactly!!! I know what Watergate is! That is why it is completely moronic that people add "gate" to the end of everything. I was commenting on the sheer stupidity of the nomenclature of today's vernacular in naming scandals. I fail to see how the latter portion of the name of a hotel that, apart from being the venue in which meddling took place, had no direct involvement in a political scandal could be the basis for naming all future follies/scandals/whatever.

Sent from my mobile look-at device

20IndigoBlue02 said:

Sorry, your fail gif is a fail. Maybe you should research the Watergate scandal that led Richard Nixon to resign as President. It has nothing to do with water.

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The fail is right on. Watergate is an office complex in DC, not a hotel.

Putting "gate" on the end of something infers that is as big a scandel as Watergate was. The term usage has become part of American venacular. That ship has already sailed...........

I agree it's a stupid usage. Tricky dick is dead, let the poor guy rest.

turbobrick240 said:

I agree it's a stupid usage. Tricky dick is dead, let the poor guy rest.

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Ask any millennial what Watergate was and you probably will get a blank stare. Same goes if you ask them who Richard Nixon was.

aja8888 said:

Ask any millennial what Watergate was and you probably will get a blank stare. Same goes if you ask them who Richard Nixon was.

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Oh holly crap. Ask them what the capital of their home state is or to spell "Bob" backwards. With my grand daughter anyway, all you will get is some frantic emothional response. She is growing out of it, but ya, it is a painfull process.

turbobrick240 said:

I agree it's a stupid usage. Tricky dick is dead, let the poor guy rest.

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Nothing to do with Tricky Dick. I think he would be proud to have seen this part of his legacy.

Realy? There is a term thas has become a permanant part of American venacular during my time in office? Realy?

Something-Gate? well, this is something we have to address in a serious and impartial manner. As is understood by most Americans except for those that are living under a rock.

Yeah, I'm sure Nixon was incredibly proud of Watergate. That must be why he tried to destroy all the tapes in which he implicated himself.

tikal said:

Damage to your lungs and the rest of your body beyond tailpipe emissions only below courtesy of the GREET model (Argonne National Labs). Notice the real world life cycle environmental health damage from the BMW X5 diesel engine vs the gasoline hybrid vehicles ('Diesel @X5' vs SI HEV and PHEV categories)!

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Again ca numbers on it's grid cleanliness are not telling you the real truth leaving out the shifted to other states dirtier production for the grid that they cannot live without. .....

Would be nice if these facts were included to give the real picture of where ca consumed power comes from and what is burned to produce that power they cannot live without.....tail pipe shifting comes to mind or nmbi. ...

rotarykid said:

Again ca numbers on it's grid cleanliness are not telling you the real truth leaving out the shifted to other states dirtier production for the grid that they cannot live without. .....

Would be nice if these facts were included to give the real picture of where ca consumed power comes from and what is burned to produce that power they cannot live without.....tail pipe shifting comes to mind or nmbi. ...

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I am calling you on BS. Nobody is hiding the truth.

For 2015: 6% of California power consumption came from coal. 538 GW generated in Californa. 294 GW from the Pacific Northwest. 16903 GW from the SouthWest.

Source: http://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html

smoke stack shifting from ca for political reasons,I call BS on claimed cleaner air!

john.jackson9213 said:

I am calling you on BS. Nobody is hiding the truth.

For 2015: 6% of California power consumption came from coal. 538 GW generated in Californa. 294 GW from the Pacific Northwest. 16903 GW from the SouthWest.

Source: http://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/total_system_power.html

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I have been in S Cal during heat waves when they are running short on electricity, where do you think that power comes from???? little blue fairies maybe...???....

I will tell you where it comes from, it comes from other Western states which mainly today rely on coal & natural gas for that power!!!

It is tail pipe, or smoke stack shifting plain & simple that happens every summer so the clowns who run CARB can claim(LIE) that they cleaning up the air...

And I guarantee later in the summer when the entire west is under a heat wave your power needed to run your AC's & that is needed to pump the water you drink across the mountains will be generating pollution in my part of the west. Filling my lungs with your pollution....

This happens every summer because politicians in ca have decided N! I! M! B! Y! so they will never allow the needed fossil fuel power plants to be built there....

So I don't care if it only happens for whatever your study data says when it does you breath clean air while in areas like in the rest of west breaths in the pollution produced for your benefit.....

I don't see the benefit in just moving your pollution to a place where people like those in ca are not burdened with it....but I am....

I think the data speaks for itself. I'm impressed how much of the electricity Californians consume comes from wind and solar. Nice to see solar supplying a bigger slice of the pie than coal.

Wonder what they do at night, use magic pixies?

That grid must be a nightmare.

turbobrick240 said:

Yeah, I'm sure Nixon was incredibly proud of Watergate. That must be why he tried to destroy all the tapes in which he implicated himself.

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Probably not. But something did come out of it that changed American language. That part? Sure why not be proud of something so profound?

rotarykid said:

I have been in S Cal during heat waves when they are running short on electricity, where do you think that power comes from???? little blue fairies maybe...???....

I will tell you where it comes from, it comes from other Western states which mainly today rely on coal & natural gas for that power!!!

It is tail pipe, or smoke stack shifting plain & simple that happens every summer so the clowns who run CARB can claim(LIE) that they cleaning up the air...

And I guarantee later in the summer when the entire west is under a heat wave your power needed to run your AC's & that is needed to pump the water you drink across the mountains will be generating pollution in my part of the west. Filling my lungs with your pollution....

This happens every summer because politicians in ca have decided N! I! M! B! Y! so they will never allow the needed fossil fuel power plants to be built there....

So I don't care if it only happens for whatever your study data says when it does you breath clean air while in areas like in the rest of west breaths in the pollution produced for your benefit.....
<snip>
.

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In 2015, 44% of California's power consumption was supplied by Natural Gas Fired Plants. That is instate and imported.

California has been building natural gas fired power plants and renovating older gas fired plants like crazy. Many of these gas fired plants are "peakers" that can be turned of and on very quickly to match grid demand.

The simple fact is that California Regulators may actually have approved many more gas fired power plants than the state needs.

Please see this L.A. Times story for the details:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-capacity/#nt=outfit

rotarykid, you started out talking about coal fired power plants that supply California's power as some dirty little secret. All I did is show you there is nothing "secret" about it. Much of that coal fired power is under old, long term (up to 50 years) contracts.
California is aggressively moving away from coal fired plants everywhere and had been doing this for many years. The Navajo Generating Station in Arizona is closing in 2019. Suspect that is the coal fired plant that has set your rant off. BTW, LADWAP (Los Angeles Dept of Water & Power) sold off it ownership stake in the Station:

http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/147...-Generating-Plant-3-5-Years-Ahead-of-Schedule


I see you live in North Carolina also. Do you know how much coal fired power Duke produces???

john.jackson9213 said:

In 2015, 44% of California's power consumption was supplied by Natural Gas Fired Plants. That is instate and imported.

California has been building natural gas fired power plants and renovating older gas fired plants like crazy. Many of these gas fired plants are "peakers" that can be turned of and on very quickly to match grid demand.

The simple fact is that California Regulators may actually have approved many more gas fired power plants than the state needs.

Please see this L.A. Times story for the details:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-capacity/#nt=outfit

rotarykid, you started out talking about coal fired power plants that supply California's power as some dirty little secret. All I did is show you there is nothing "secret" about it. Much of that coal fired power is under old, long term (up to 50 years) contracts.
California is aggressively moving away from coal fired plants everywhere and had been doing this for many years. The Navajo Generating Station in Arizona is closing in 2019. Suspect that is the coal fired plant that has set your rant off. BTW, LADWAP (Los Angeles Dept of Water & Power) sold off it ownership stake in the Station:

http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/147...-Generating-Plant-3-5-Years-Ahead-of-Schedule


I see you live in North Carolina also. Do you know how much coal fired power Duke produces???

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Of course, I DO!!! I grew in a time before they installed flyash filters so I am well aware of where exactly there are coal ash toxic waste ponds feet....inches from the water supplies for millions of us...

I will tell you a story of the pollution of the river area I grew up in....

When I was young the flyash was so bad in the air where I lived that it would fill the holes in the screen on our porch, requiring screen panel replacement every summer where the screen was being made opeak from being filled with coal ash....

....Lake Wylie was so polluted that there were public pronunciations saying, children should not swim in the lake water. So please do not presume you know more than I do about pollution problems in the area I have lived most of life in...

....And when I was forced to spend some time during the summer in S CAL during a heat wave recently where the power company was turning off ac systems with load control to avoid blackouts.....

I know for a fact they were buying coal produced power from the western & mid western grids, even from the texas grid to fill the gaps in overconsumption compared to actual available supply...

And a fact left out of your data is that the load pick up jet engine'd power production is mainly for normal load pick up...

These jet engine-powered units are not designed to be used constantly when conditions exceed normal production limits like a heat wave or for water moving loads...When these short-term use units are overused production costs skyrocket so the real and actual outcome is smoke stack shifting to the rest of the US grid....

Power production which is from the parts of the US where that power is the cheapest where enforcement of pollution controls are lax at best with voluntary reporting(LOL) of when they exceed limits for too long...

The only way this smoke stack shifting will end is if CA actually bites the bullet to build normal & extreme load power production units...And I don't think CA has built much if any real load production in years.....they have taken real load production out, a lot of it with a policy of we will just smoke stack shift when load exceeds real locally available production limits.......

( That is while the clowns who run CARB will never use the term that actually describes what they are doing, moving their pollution to places with lower production costs due to laxer e-limits)....

.....while CARB is continuing to claim "we have cleaned up the air, look at what we have done" that is with CARB's NMBY policy of moving this production to places you do not see that pollution....

rotarykid said:

The only way this smoke stack shifting will end is if CA actually bites the bullet to build normal & extreme load power production units...And I don't think CA has built much if any real load production in years.....they have taken real load production out, a lot of it with a policy of we will just smoke stack shift when load exceeds real locally available production limits.......

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California added ~9000GWh/yr of wind and solar generation last year alone... for ~39000GWh/yr of wind/solar total. That's enough energy for ~8M EVs assuming 15k miles/yr. California has ~250k EVs. They're adding wind/solar generation >10x faster than EV consumption. AND... EVs make it easier to add even MORE wind/solar due to the demand response that they can offer.

A couple of things.....the world I grew up in the news & facts were facts, and pretty much all had a reasonable idea of what the real facts were/were....

We all know that this is not the world we live in, while coal produced power is not a secret, I believe we all know people who only consume "news" from those who share their view of the world....

So to many of those ostriches with their heads in the sand, they share only that sand they put their heads in with those who spout the "facts" they agree with.....these real facts are to them a secret they have not been let in on(...

And this is a real one that reaches all, especially those who live in a world with little connection to real facts.....

when it is 90-110*F outside and the local grid has reached its production limit(I add not at its transmission limit which is a different story & discussion) and the load control kicks in to prevent a brown out or a black out heads come out of their comfy sand traps....

I'll word it another way for the hard to get through to the crowd....

How about this.....when I(them, whoever) is sitting in my(their) nice comfy living room watching tv with the ac blaring while temps are approaching triple digits on the *F scale, when suddenly the load control kicks in......

then just as suddenly when load cannot meet with demand(because so many were too uninformed(too stupid as to how the grid works) to understand they needed to cut load like NOW to avoid a black out) the power goes out completely....

WT! just happen, is what comes out of the least informed in the crowd's mouths, it is getting hot in here....they go outside, wow...it is really hot out here...You should by now get the picture...their cell phones have no signal, no wi-fi....


Power producers in CA by agreement today can cut the average consumers power first before they are required to go elsewhere to bring in power from the rest of US grid...Only required supply is for services deemed required for civil services....

To a group in our great country, it is not until this point that they are ever faced with the real world...Only then when the wi-fi is gone, the cell phones need charging, only then do these people come out to get involved in this discussion, that is because they for the first time see how this affects the world they live in....

My point here is we should all know where & how the power we need to live comes from. I am from a time when we of all parties decided we needed to stop wasting fuel & energy, and that wasting put our very lives at risk...I am from the time when we as a country push on road fuel economy in our auto fleet above 40 mpgUS real world averages....

We went from a time when we cut on road fuel consumption by 75 % in nine years of having CAFE with real achievable/targets which were achieved by 1985 MY in most of our fleet....

The policy of cutting consumption lead to a worldwide fuel price crash to lowest numbers in the history of having oil costs be in US dollars by 1985....

Inexplicitly we were stupid enough to end our energy policy which had worked....this lead the US in real world CAFE going from low to mid-40s in 85-86 MY to single digits in around 2004......

I support the US continuing policies which they abandoned in the mid-80s for political reasons. ...But I have worked in the power industry, so I do have some understanding of what works and what doesn't...

sorry to say this, but the things that worked for last ~150 years are still best for high unexpected load times...

Battery lakes....have been and still are the best way to ecologically handle high load times...

Nukes, sodium reactors are our best bet for reliable power production at lower costs......the best on the list if CO2 reductions are the overall goal in making power production cleaner....


Someone else can chime in on which are better options and in what order after that...

nwdiver said:

California added ~9000GWh/yr of wind and solar generation last year alone... for ~39000GWh/yr of wind/solar total. That's enough energy for ~8M EVs assuming 15k miles/yr. California has ~250k EVs. They're adding wind/solar generation >10x faster than EV consumption. AND... EVs make it easier to add even MORE wind/solar due to the demand response that they can offer.

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Solar only works when the sun is out, and when communities allow transmission lines from the places where the sun shines to where it is needed...And CA has a real documentable history of building these massive solar projects, then refusing for years to allow transmissions lines to get that power where it is needed for consumption...

Wind produced power, I do know a little about.......

What many do not know is the power production window is very narrow for what wind speeds high or low are useful for power production. When the wind reaches a maximum of gusts above 25-30mph turbines must shut down to protect them from over-revving.....

In many places where windmills were installed a majority of the time wind speeds exceeded max safe operating speeds... And this is something that was not considered when many of these large wind farms were installed...

Software companies have tried with little success to date to widen that safe operational speed range. Many of these large wind farms at best can safely produce power ~30 % of the time....

the rest of the time the blades on these multi-billion $$$ wind farms are locked in full 0 % deflection mode to protect these very expensive compared to all other options power producers...

Until this is solved the wind will remain a marginal at best option for power production....

Compared to NG solar is currently 10-20 times more expensive, and wind depending on how much of the time it is safe for the turbines to operate without eating themselves that cost can be 20-50 times more expensive....

And before you link to one of the charts out there, make sure the subsidies are taken out of their figures to give an actual picture of real costs of producing using these alternatives(which I supported being used in the 70s and still support today when they can be used economically not putting most of the cost burdens of that production on the poorest today who cannot afford it...

I am one of those who has first hand watched my CO power bills go up by 10-20+ times(that is today for a consumer like me it costs me 20 times today to cool my house that it did in the 1990s.

in the 90s I could not make my power bill gas & electric exceed 45-60 winter to 60-100 in summer. but today with increased costs associated with alternative energy production along with tiered pricing that they claimed only businesses would be hit by(I call a lie & bs) that same bill exceeds 350 per month!)

First hand I have seen what the bills were in the 1990s before wind & solar was added to the state's grids when the costs are put on consumers shoulders...

I have to ask how many here would be willing if they know their bill will go up that much for the integration of these alternatives into production..???...the poorest amoung us are the real loosers here in this current setup...

rotarykid said:

Of course, I DO!!! I grew in a time before they installed flyash filters so I am well aware of where exactly there are coal ash toxic waste ponds feet....inches from the water supplies for millions of us...

I will tell you a story of the pollution of the river area I grew up in....

When I was young the flyash was so bad in the air where I lived that it would fill the holes in the screen on our porch, requiring screen panel replacement every summer where the screen was being made opeak from being filled with coal ash....

....Lake Wylie was so polluted that there were public pronunciations saying, children should not swim in the lake water. So please do not presume you know more than I do about pollution problems in the area I have lived most of life in...

....And when I was forced to spend some time during the summer in S CAL during a heat wave recently where the power company was turning off ac systems with load control to avoid blackouts.....

I know for a fact they were buying coal produced power from the western & mid western grids, even from the texas grid to fill the gaps in overconsumption compared to actual available supply...

And a fact left out of your data is that the load pick up jet engine'd power production is mainly for normal load pick up...

These jet engine-powered units are not designed to be used constantly when conditions exceed normal production limits like a heat wave or for water moving loads...When these short-term use units are overused production costs skyrocket so the real and actual outcome is smoke stack shifting to the rest of the US grid....

Power production which is from the parts of the US where that power is the cheapest where enforcement of pollution controls are lax at best with voluntary reporting(LOL) of when they exceed limits for too long...

The only way this smoke stack shifting will end is if CA actually bites the bullet to build normal & extreme load power production units...And I don't think CA has built much if any real load production in years.....they have taken real load production out, a lot of it with a policy of we will just smoke stack shift when load exceeds real locally available production limits.......

( That is while the clowns who run CARB will never use the term that actually describes what they are doing, moving their pollution to places with lower production costs due to laxer e-limits)....

.....while CARB is continuing to claim "we have cleaned up the air, look at what we have done" that is with CARB's NMBY policy of moving this production to places you do not see that pollution....

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My question was do you know how much coal fired power Duke produces in North Carolina. I said and asked nothing about coal pollution.

California law requires state utilities to buy a certain percentage of their power from renewable resources. That percentage is ever increasing under law.

The Navajo Generating Station Project made economic sense in the 1970's because it was cheaper to transport the electricity from the source of the coal fuel and build the Generating station near the coal supply. Huge costs for shipping coal were avoided. Simple economics.

You seem to be taking issue with the interstate transportation of electric power from coal fired plants. Unfortunately there is little any state can do to block interstate commerce. The ability to regulate interstate commerce rests only with the U.S. Congress. Not with any state. Even California or Texas.

Clearly, nothing I say or point out to you is going to reduce the anger you feel or change your view of the world. All I have tried to do is have a civil discussion and point to some actual facts about what percentage of California's electric power comes from coal fired plants and how much new gas fired capacity is actually being added in California.

rotarykid said:

I have to ask how many here would be willing if they know their bill will go up that much for the integration of these alternatives into production..???...the poorest amoung us are the real loosers here in this current setup...

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The cost of solar is now <$1/w before subsidies (<$0.04/kWh). I have a pile of checks sitting on my desk (I deposit electronically). My PV array paid for itself in ~5 years. ~8 if you don't count subsidies. You can schedule an EV to charge when wind or solar are in abundance.

What... what evidence will it take to convince the cynics that wind and solar are not just economically viable but much cheaper than fossil fuels?

how much is your free ride costng the rest of us,time to end your freeride@my expense

nwdiver said:

The cost of solar is now <$1/w before subsidies (<$0.04/kWh). I have a pile of checks sitting on my desk (I deposit electronically). My PV array paid for itself in ~5 years. ~8 if you don't count subsidies. You can schedule an EV to charge when wind or solar are in abundance.
What... what evidence will it take to convince the cynics that wind and solar are not just economically viable but much cheaper than fossil fuels?

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again only part of the story is told.....these tax cheats are being given a free ride on our roads, many fail to figure that part into the equation!!!

No road taxes paid, anywhere in the US.....how much $$$$$$ is that free giveaway costing the rest of us who do pay our part for road upkeep & building..???...

any estimation on how much these things are costing us all without coming up with the real numbers on the $$$$$$$ these things are taking out of the rest of our pockets for them to exist in the first place is BS & a lie!

we must figure in the millions If not billions this free ride has cost the rest of us to allow these things to get away without paying their way to use OUR roads!

And it is time to end the war on auto class diesels carried out by places like the clowns who make up CARB through their over-regulation of vehicles no one has sold in the US since 1985 model year in any number....

These BS ridiculously over-stringent auto class diesel emissions regulations need to be yesterday rolled back to a level which is related to their non-existent impact to air quality anywhere in the US.

This allowing of more reality based emissions regs should be done off the real fact of their positive measurable impact to on-road fuel economy for a reasonable price...

diesels require no ridiculous allowing them to skirt the road tax rules along with 10s of thousands of dollars in tax credits given to lower their price needed....their fuel savings are more than enough to get buyers into the door...

turbocharged798 said:

Wonder what they do at night, use magic pixies?

That grid must be a nightmare.

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Still waiting for someone to answer this. Power storage is a fundamental problem with wind and solar.

turbocharged798 said:

Still waiting for someone to answer this. Power storage is a fundamental problem with wind and solar.

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battery lakes are the only practical way we have today to store power in the needed quantities....but for environmental reasons the building of these has been scarce for the last 40 years,,,,,..... I personally know of about a dozen of these, all built at least 50 years ago.....

And I bet to most making all the arguments for alternative produced energy have no clue what a battery lake actually is or how they work...

john.jackson9213 said:

I see you live in North Carolina also. Do you know how much coal fired power Duke produces???

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As Rotary kid mentioned, coal ash is our biggest concern in Charlotte. There is one massive retention pond within feet of our major water supply. As for energy generation in the Charlotte, I can see the plumes from a coal plant and a nuke plant from my house. There is another nuke plant within 15 miles and three hydro plants for peak consumption. I'm sure there are other plants near by but I see these most everyday.

These numbers are for the total area that Duke Energy covers. Power to about 24 million people.



Environmental Performance Metrics


2016 Electricity Generated and Generation Capacity1


Duke Energy has a diverse, increasingly clean generation portfolio. Approximately 38 percent of the electricity we generated in 2016 was from carbon-free sources, including nuclear, wind, hydro and solar. Nuclear generation surpassed coal by a small margin, and over 28 percent was from natural gas, which emits about half as much carbon dioxide as coal when used for electric generation. Duke Energy Renewables sells the electricity and/or Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs) it generates to its customers.







2016 Electricity Generated*

turbocharged798 said:

Still waiting for someone to answer this. Power storage is a fundamental problem with wind and solar.

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Power from renewables(or any source) can be stored in a number of ways. Besides pumping water uphill, energy can be stored thermally(think molten salt), and also in batteries. Not a huge technological leap for a society that can put men on the moon.

rotarykid said:

again only part of the story is told.....these tax cheats are being given a free ride on our roads, many fail to figure that part into the equation!!!

No road taxes paid, anywhere in the US.....how much $$$$$$ is that free giveaway costing the rest of us who do pay our part for road upkeep & building..???...

any estimation on how much these things are costing us all without coming up with the real numbers on the $$$$$$$ these things are taking out of the rest of our pockets for them to exist in the first place is BS & a lie!

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While I agree with some of your comments, this part is not entirely correct. At most, fuel and use taxes only cover about 45% of the needed upkeep for our infrastructure. The remainder comes from sales taxes, property taxes, and even income taxes. In a few areas, tolls actually pay for all the road upkeep without using federal or state money to make up the difference.

turbocharged798 said:

Still waiting for someone to answer this. Power storage is a fundamental problem with wind and solar.

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Demand response is practically free. There are 250k EVs in California alone growing fast. That's >8GWh of variable demand. Not only are EVs cleaner but they can help make the grid cleaner too...

turbobrick240 said:

Power from renewables(or any source) can be stored in a number of ways. Besides pumping water uphill(inefficient), energy can be stored thermally(think molten salt)(not practical), and also in batteries.(expensive, lots of toxic material) Not a huge technological leap for a society that can put men on the moon.

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BOLD is mine. One interesting method is to store the energy in a huge flywheel. Problem if that flywheel ever broke loose...

nwdiver said:

Demand response is practically free. There are 250k EVs in California alone growing fast. That's >8GWh of variable demand. Not only are EVs cleaner but they can help make the grid cleaner too...

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None of that answered my question.