Audi confirms diesel is dead in the US

tadawson said:

Ever seen a lithium battery fire? Very hot, violent, and ugly, and very difficult to put out . . . .

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A lot like that other energy source, uh... petroleum?

flee said:

They are, in fact, the only ones that aren't solar powered.

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I hear there are geothermal cars in Iceland. But yeah, most all of our energy originates from nuclear fusion inside the sun. Heck of a power plant.

tadawson said:

Ever seen a lithium battery fire? Very hot, violent, and ugly, and very difficult to put out . . . .

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It depends on the rest of the composition of the battery. I certainly wouldn't want to be in or near an EV with some of the older laptop chemistry batteries. Thankfully the current EV manufacturers use very stable chemistry for their batteries. I'd worry more about a fire in a gasoline vehicle. Of course diesel is quite stable so fires are not usually a huge concern for TDI drivers.

flee said:

A lot like that other energy source, uh... petroleum?

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Gasoline, maybe . . . diesel is pretty hard to ignite (pour out a puddle of it, and try to light it - it will put the match out, pretty much rendering a tank rupture pretty harmless, unlike gasoline). Oh, and a lithium battery doesn't need a sohrce of ignition . . . . it *IS* the source of ignition, since it's contents can burn on exposure to air . . . . or from a short/internal failure . . . . or a puncture . . . . .or impact resulting in any or all of the prior . . . or ? ? ? Oh, and unlike a battery, fuel hits the ground and can disperse/flow away . . . . the battery is retained very close to (sometimes under) the driver . . . . I'll pass, thanks . . . .

Most folks today drive around in Molotov cocktail mobiles, and for the most part, they survive. I honestly worry more about getting burned by the sun than any car I get into.

turbobrick240 said:

Most folks today drive around in Molotov cocktail mobiles, and for the most part, they survive. I honestly worry more about getting burned by the sun than any car I get into.

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Especially after watching recent NHTSA crash tests of Tesla vehicles. Very impressive.

Despite having lithium ion batteries, the Model S and X are the first and second safest passenger vehicles (respectively) ever tested.

Which lithium chemistry are we talking about here? Some of them you can go after using a torch with no ill effect, some will go off if you dent them. As you can imagine the first kind are what are used in EV.

VeeDubTDI said:

Especially after watching recent NHTSA crash tests of Tesla vehicles. Very impressive.

Despite having lithium ion batteries, the Model S and X are the first and second safest passenger vehicles (respectively) ever tested.

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was that before or after the skidplates were installed?

740GLE said:

was that before or after the skidplates were installed?

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The Model X was just tested a couple of weeks ago, so. If you're referencing the early Model S, we're well past that.

tadawson said:

Gasoline, maybe . . . diesel is pretty hard to ignite (pour out a puddle of it, and try to light it - it will put the match out, pretty much rendering a tank rupture pretty harmless, unlike gasoline). Oh, and a lithium battery doesn't need a sohrce of ignition . . . . blah, blah...

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Anyone not wearing a tinfoil hat knows that in a collision all bets are off.
High speed impacts have a funny way of redistributing the playing pieces.
As thousands of semi drivers have found out: when the tanks split it's time to run.

flee said:

Anyone not wearing a tinfoil hat knows that in a collision all bets are off.
High speed impacts have a funny way of redistributing the playing pieces.
As thousands of semi drivers have found out: when the tanks split it's time to run.

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Diesel fuel, a combustible liquid under NFPA standards has a flash point of around 120 degrees F.. That means it must be heated to that temperature to flash, but not continue to burn, if there is an ignition source hot enough to ignite it(I don't remember the ignition temperature off hand). Any driver that ran was probably because he was at fault, drunk or was hauling Bengal Tigers. On the other hand, gasoline, a flammable liquid under the same standards, has a flash point of around minus 45 degrees F.(depending on grade), which is the only reason that people can drive their gasoline cars during most Minnesota winters. As a result, gasoline is about a million times more dangerous than diesel fuel. I retired as a Fire Captain on a big city (Phoenix) fire department. That said, if a diesel fuel leak would happen on a street in the middle of summer, there is some likelihood of it reaching its flash point. That said, I still didn't worry nearly as much as if it would have been gasoline...Mark

maybe368 said:

Diesel fuel, edit...Mark

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Let's just agree on these things:
Engines have very hot external surfaces and vehicle crashes generate incandescent particles.
Suddenly liberated fuel can and does form a cloud of fine droplets that can and do
make contact with the above. When that happens all your opinions go up in flame.

flee said:

Let's just agree on these things:
Engines have very hot external surfaces and vehicle crashes generate incandescent particles.
Suddenly liberated fuel can and does form a cloud of fine droplets that can and do
make contact with the above. When that happens all your opinions go up in flame.

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If my aunt had testicles, she would be my uncle. I'm glad that you don't sit in the front seat of a fire truck, you would be calling multiple alarms on diesel fuel leaks...Mark edit: The ignition temp of diesel fuel is almost 500 degrees F.. So the surface of that engine would have to be that hot, science baby...

flee said:

Let's just agree on these things:
Engines have very hot external surfaces and vehicle crashes generate incandescent particles.
Suddenly liberated fuel can and does form a cloud of fine droplets that can and do
make contact with the above. When that happens all your opinions go up in flame.

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Yeah, it's that nasty cloud of hydrocarbons that you should worry about igniting.

From SafetyEng:

In my HAZMAT classes, I always ask the question: A container of diesel fuel is at its flash point and a container of gasoline is at its flash point - an ignition source is present within the container - which container ignites first? Darn near 100% of the students will say the gasoline container and darn near 100% are WRONG! The reason: Diesel fuel has an LEL of around 0.5% and Gasoline has an LEL of around 1.5%, meaning that the LEL will be achieved in the diesel container MUCH FASTER. The ONLY thing diesel fuel has that makes it more safe is a HIGH flash point; however, when we expose diesel fuel to cutting torches and grinders we can spread the heat via conduction to the diesel fuel, raising the temp of the solution and thus we create a flammable atmosphere in short order! In fact, since most workers have some level of respect for gasoline and very little for diesel fuel we see more diesel fuel tank explosions than we do gasoline.

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aja8888 said:

Yeah, it's that nasty cloud of hydrocarbons that you should worry about igniting.
From SafetyEng:

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That would be interesting, but they are talking about minus 45 for gas and 120 for diesel, which makes the quote irrelevant unless you know a place where both those temperatures exist at the same time oh yeah Phoenix on a hot day DUH...Mark edit: and yes I know that diesel fuel has more potential energy per unit than gas, it burns hotter, but not readily, like gasoline...Also, the container or whole of the leak of diesel fuel has to be heated to 120, not just the leading edge of the fuel, that guy has some stuff right, but is not giving the whole picture. That said, be afraid, be very afraid...

All very fascinating in theory but I have to pull rank here.
You see, I blow up vehicles for a living.
I do this many different ways but diesel is very effective I assure you.
This all started not as a debate about whether or not diesel is as dangerous as gas
but whether it was dangerous at all.
I will not be taking any fuel for granted after my many experiences igniting them.

flee said:

All very fascinating in theory but I have to pull rank here.
You see, I blow up vehicles for a living.
I do this many different ways but diesel is very effective I assure you.
This all started not as a debate about whether or not diesel is as dangerous as gas
but whether it was dangerous at all.
I will not be taking any fuel for granted after my many experiences igniting them.

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You mean that you set them up to burn or blow up? That doesn't happen too often in wrecks. I don't recognize your rank. The bottom line is that, in emergency settings, of which you display no knowledge, gasoline is a million times more dangerous than diesel fuel, but yes diesel can be dangerous. I went on hundreds of accidents, where diesel fuel was leaking from saddle tanks, it was not nearly as worrying as gasoline. diesel is a relatively safe fuel.In the old days, before environmental laws, we used to park trucks leaking diesel fuel on vacant lots, so that it wouldn't dissolve the asphalt. It does not scare me and did not scare me nearly as much as gasoline So, Senor jefe, carry on...Mark

So far off topic...

maybe368 said:

You mean that you set them up to burn or blow up? That doesn't happen too often in wrecks. I don't recognize your rank. The bottom line is that, in emergency settings, of which you display no knowledge, gasoline is a million times more dangerous than diesel fuel, but yes diesel can be dangerous. I went on hundreds of accidents, where diesel fuel was leaking from saddle tanks, it was not nearly as worrying as gasoline. diesel is a relatively safe fuel.In the old days, before environmental laws, we used to park trucks leaking diesel fuel on vacant lots, so that it wouldn't dissolve the asphalt. It does not scare me and did not scare me nearly as much as gasoline So, Senor jefe, carry on...Mark

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He must work for NBC <ducks> . . .

Is diesel "more dangerous"? In certain scenarios.

Gasoline powered aircraft count on a sealed fuel system, just like cars. The air-fuel mixture in the dead space inside the tanks quickly reaches a non-explosive level and stay that way.

Jets (and the rare diesel-powered aircraft) use tanks that are continuously vented. Precisely BECAUSE the fuel is less volatile when the mixture in the dead space is explosive it tends to stay that way for a long time.....even FOREVER of the fuel burn is just right. So the tanks are vented under pressure to keep the vapor out entirely.

So when you're just driving down the road I'd say your diesel fuel tank may actually be MORE explosive than a gasoline tank. However, SPILLED gasoline is more apt to catch fire than spilled diesel fuel.

-mickey

p.s. Not that I worry about it. I owned a CNG powered Civic for a while. (Paid 79 cents per "gallon" when regular gasoline was pushing $4. Almost got in a fist fight with a guy filling up a big Chevy truck.) If THAT tank had exploded bits of me would have been spread over several square miles.

Diesel is heavier than gas and is much safer than gas. Both of them can explode if a spark is introduced if the air to fuel mixture is in-between the upper explosive limit and the lower explosive limit. As stated earlier pour gas in a pan and put a match to it and it buns, do the same with diesel and it will put the match out. The diesel tank is not more explosive than gas. In training we remotely lit off the gas fumes at the vehicle gas tank fill spout. It burned at the spout only because down in the spout it is too rich to burn. Did the same with diesel and it would not light off.

New Mickey said:

Gasoline powered aircraft count on a sealed fuel system, just like cars.

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No, they don't. Their tanks are vented to the atmosphere (I should know, I fly one). Pretty important, when you think about it--pressure changes could otherwise cause the tank to collapse or balloon, not to mention the issues it would cause with fuel flow to the engine.

You have to treat any flammable liquid with respect. But if I'm trapped upside down in my car with a puddle of fuel under me, I sure as hell don't want it to be gasoline.

Dangerous_Dan said:

Nobody who thinks about it for very long would want to get rid of automobile pollution controls. Not to say there aren't issues with the rules, but a wholesale abandonment would result in the kind of air quality you find in many less developed countries.

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Ah, someone with an actual brain posting here. The rules may need tweaking, or perhaps we need a better strategy for dealing with the fact that we pollute the only atmosphere we have with substances that cause lung problems and are warming the planet and we do not charge the polluters (e.g., drivers) for the damage they are doing to all of us. Smart Republicans George Schultz and James Baker have written a paper about this and have proposed eliminating rules like the CAFE standards and substituting a carbon tax. They're proposal is quite innovative and is also supported by Larry Summers, a highly respected economist and former Sec'y of the Treasury. These are smart people, unlike some who post here, who apparently would do away with all pollution controls so it will be cheaper for them to continue to behave like 10-year-olds and play with their toys.

New Mickey said:

Gasoline powered aircraft count on a sealed fuel system, just like cars. The air-fuel mixture in the dead space inside the tanks quickly reaches a non-explosive level and stay that way.

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Um, not even close.

Gasoline powered aircraft vent to atmosphere, with very rudimentary vent tubes. There's nothing sealed about them at all. There is no EVAP system. The tanks are very much explosive, in all phases of content.



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Cool, another TDIClub pilot. I instructed for 15 months or so about 11 years ago before moving on. Haven't see those fuel vents in a while!

Really makes you wonder what compels people to speak with authority on subjects they obviously know nothing about...

All I know is whenever I drink either one of them, it gives me gas.

DanB36 said:

Really makes you wonder what compels people to speak with authority on subjects they obviously know nothing about...

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Its obvious. They stayed at a Holiday Inn.