Injector pump not leaking... pouring!

Yeah but what about the fact that most people don't want to dissassemble their pumps to this level? Most people don't have facilities clean enough to have the pump this far apart. Whatdoyathink?

I get alot of dead pumps shipped to me, and dead cars towed to the house from guys reading how-to's on the forums.

I also think replacing the oring in the pump head should be done with the pump out on the bench, imho. It takes a couple of hours to R&R and reseal. Why take short cuts. I also wonder about the jb weld, small chuncks can fall into the pump. A scribed line on the housing is fine, however vagcom QA alignment is always recommended.

Short cuts often kill pumps, so you're on your own. My shop, it's not the cleanest, but I can clean a spot to tear down a pump in 5 minutes. Just don't let someone be grinding welds next your work - hehe.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

Thanks for your opinion, Jeff.

I think if the owner approaches this with a clear head and has a reasonable amount of mechanical gumption, they can complete these seal swaps without a problem. If the owner is really shaky in their experience and lacks confidence then they might leave it to a professional. Pulling a pump for a seal change isn't necessary in all cases in my opinion. I don't consider the top/middle or pump head seal change to be very difficult. The front seal is more involved to be sure.

For the JBWeld trick you are completely correct about not dropping a chunk into the pump when you pull the Quantity Adjuster free of the pump. I will edit my post to reflect this prudent warning. The epoxy fissure sure makes a perfect way to line up the QA for those without VagCom. My experience on the phone with middle seal customers is that several still didn't get the QA to line up perfectly with a scribed line so I wanted to come up with a sure way to do it however inelegant. Some customers live in the sticks and some customers have had to change these seals on the roadside. Some drivers don't have the resources to pull a pump or buy VagCom or get their pumps professionally re-sealed and that's who the procedure was meant for in addition to those saavy wrenches who want to doit themselves with the least hassle.

I did the ip head o-ring replacement last week while about 1000 miles from home in Orlando. Thanks to Shannon of Volkswagen Service By Full Throttle for letting me use a place in his shop. Not sure if I'm overly fastidious or not (opinions welcome). I found it to be pretty intense when I got to the part where the head was out enough to expose the o-ring groove. There was so much dirt on the head next to the o-ring that I didn't feel I could clean it safely, especially on the bottom side where I couldn't see. So I jacked the car up as Robbie suggested somewhere in this thread I think and pulled the head completely out. Used a lot of vaseline to stick parts together such as what looks like some kind of hardened thrust washer about 5/16 X 1/16 inch and the two large springs. I'm still really glad I didn't have to take the pump out - I think it would have been a bigger job that way. Thanks for the help and procedure, Robbie and Jim. The same goes for the rest of you whose posts I've read, and this website obviously. Another funny thing is that I have been running straight biodiesel for 20 weeks, and haven't had "much" of a problem other than needing to replace the fuel filter a couple of times. Then I drove to Florida and couldn't find as much B99 or 100 as I wanted, so I put in 4 tankfuls of petrodiesel, probably all was the ultra-low sulfur kind. I drove about 400 miles on my full tank of familiar B99.9 from DFW Biodiesel near my house, then filled up with my first petrodiesel and the whole tank ran OK. The second tank of petrodiesel began to give me trouble with bubbles in the fuel line so I assumed it was bad fuel clogging my filter and I changed it, and it was OK after that. Later I got the air bubbles again and assumed it was the filter again and probably changed it unnecessarily. But I couldn't prime the ip with a MityVac at that point because the o-ring had lost its seal. Question: was it just time for this o-ring to fail, or changing from B100 to petrodiesel, or the ultra low-sulfur fuel which is "Recommended for use in all diesel vehicles and engines"?
Peter

peter, We will all assume that you solved your no start situation (?)

For future reference: You should clean the dist. head thoroughly prior to backing it out of the pump body.

the consensus is that the o-rings fail due to switching between different fuels LSD>ULSD or LSD>BD or BD>ULSD. as well as age/time.

BTW,
I just did this procedure on a friends car today in her driveway. It only took an hour to get her back on the road with minimal cost, and she was able to make it to her photo shoot on time. She had neither the time nor the money to spend on a pump removal and rebuild.
in other words, the in-situ o-ring replacement procedure is a very effective, practical solution, period.

The o-ring replacement did solve the no-start problem, and so the TDI got me back to Arlington, TX. I cleaned the dist head externally with tape to get visible sandy dirt off the top, but the procedure advises against spraying brake cleaner around the seam between the head and the body, saying it might wash dirt inside. Maybe I could have been safe with some of that, but didn't want to risk it. Not being able to see where the dirt was going concerned me.
Peter

There have been about a dozen Phoenix area successful in-car seal fixes in the past month. They seem to be having more than the average amount of leaking pumps which might be a temperature swing issue or fuel change issue.

Help Runonbeer!

runonbeer said:

Jack up the drivers side of the car as high as you can get it to go (this will get gravity at least somewhat on your side). Stand on the passenger side of the engine and reach over and into the pump to re-insert the rollers in their guides (take note of the orientation of the outer washer face). cut a coat hanger into a 5" section and bend it into a boxed "U" shape. this will allow you to hold the cam plate to re-insert it after you get the rollers back in; don't try and use a magnet to hold it, you'll just end up pulling all the rollers out everytime (I know this)

formal write up with pictures to come.

Click to expand...

Hello runonbeer,
I did the same thing to my precious Injection pump while nievely trying to fix the leak that had developed there, among two other spots on the top seal and the seal around the electrode on the front. The pump was formerly working fine otherwise. Now I feel like i have done some terrible wrong, as if I broke my best friend's leg out of a innocent but nieve mistake. Our precious Passat sits disabled in the garage. I hope that I found all the parts that fell out of the IP when I pulled out the distributor head. basically there was 4 sets of the 3 peice roller assemblies, the larger connection parts (Cam plate?) that connect with the pump shaft, and one small (1-2cm diameter) washer like peice (a few 2? millimeters thick) with a hole in the middle. I actually am not sure about where this goes, my best guess is where the beveled peice (Cam plate?)meets the shaft for the pump, there seems to be a place for it there, but i am unsure of myself because it just doesnt fit together exactly like I imagine it should (like a puzzle). I read about someone else on this thread using vaseline to "hold the little parts together" when they were replacing the distributor side O ring which would be great but, it seems like a bad thing to have vaseline flowing through your injection pump, no? maybe it dissolves in the diesel? If you or anyone else could send along some more specific info or pictures about how to get it back together without taking the pump out, finding out where the mystery peice goes that I mentioned, and if I am missing any parts, I would be overjoyed. Thank You

I changed my middle seal last Sunday. It was the only thing leaking. It had shrunken up a bit clearly. New seal went in fine and no leaks. I'd be afraid of changing anything other than the top and middle seal. It would have to go to a shop. My work area is not clean enough to do it.

baba tino said:

Hello runonbeer,
I did the same thing to my precious Injection pump while nievely trying to fix the leak that had developed there, among two other spots on the top seal and the seal around the electrode on the front. The pump was formerly working fine otherwise. Now I feel like i have done some terrible wrong, as if I broke my best friend's leg out of a innocent but nieve mistake. Our precious Passat sits disabled in the garage. I hope that I found all the parts that fell out of the IP when I pulled out the distributor head. basically there was 4 sets of the 3 peice roller assemblies, the larger connection parts (Cam plate?) that connect with the pump shaft, and one small (1-2cm diameter) washer like peice (a few 2? millimeters thick) with a hole in the middle. I actually am not sure about where this goes, my best guess is where the beveled peice (Cam plate?)meets the shaft for the pump, there seems to be a place for it there, but i am unsure of myself because it just doesnt fit together exactly like I imagine it should (like a puzzle). I read about someone else on this thread using vaseline to "hold the little parts together" when they were replacing the distributor side O ring which would be great but, it seems like a bad thing to have vaseline flowing through your injection pump, no? maybe it dissolves in the diesel? If you or anyone else could send along some more specific info or pictures about how to get it back together without taking the pump out, finding out where the mystery peice goes that I mentioned, and if I am missing any parts, I would be overjoyed. Thank You

Click to expand...

the small washer with a hole goes on the end of the plunger where it contacts the cam plate.
Just be very patient and meticulous and you should be able to get it back together.
Why did you disassemble the pump in the first place?
http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Inject...eplacement.htm

runonbeer said:

the small washer with a hole goes on the end of the plunger where it contacts the cam plate.
Just be very patient and meticulous and you should be able to get it back together.
Why did you disassemble the pump in the first place?
http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Inject...eplacement.htm

Click to expand...

Thanks runonbeer,
Thanks for the info, thats where I thought it went, if I understand you correctly. The cam plate is beveled, and the plunger is shaft-like and "plunges" into the distributor end of the pump as the cam plate turns over the rollers, correct?
By the way to answer your question I took it apart because the o ring on the distributor end was leaking, and when I began to pull the distributor end out, it fell apart inside and I had no choice but to take it out.
Now I just have two more questions for you or anyone in the forum- about the "kosher-ness" of using vaseline (as pdreyfuss mentioned on the post 11/4/06 3:43pm) to hold the small loose parts in place during reassembly (as I inquired about before,) and where one could order new seals for the pump. I need the top seal, The seal that goes between the electrode and pump body on the front of the pump, and the O- ring on the distributor end. Thanks.

Some good info here.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/uploads/23572/Bosch_VE_pump_head_how-to.pdf

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3555/pump.pdf

Bruce,
fantastic links. All of the above questions are answered in that procedure.

I did OK with the vaseline, believing it would dissolve in the diesel. Its holding power was less than perfect with those big springs, though it held the small washer very well. I have driven about 1500 miles since then. It did smoke for about 10 seconds when I first started it.
Peter

runonbeer said:

Bruce,
fantastic links. All of the above questions are answered in that procedure.

Click to expand...

Thank Ray_G. He did good!

Excellent thread! Got me thinking about my own dillema. I've got a pump with a bad Quantity Adjuster (Resistance over 2meg ohms measured at pump) and engine won't run. I'll be installing my spare pump to get back up and running, but hate to see the original pump sit unusable.

Has anyone found a source for replacement QAs? How about the install and adjustment procedure? Any help here would be appreciated.

Someone should have a used one sitting around. Try posting a wanted ad in the for sale/wanted section. This will help keep us on topic...

To install it you just bolt it on in the same place the original was mounted using scribe marks. Check IQ with Vag-Com before and after or use the epoxy trick.

Thanks Everyone for the advice. I'ts really appreciated and when the seals get here I'm going to give it a go. Hopefully it will work and save me a lot of $$.

Gee, dieselgeek. No wonder it's easy for you. You have 3 hands. I saw them in picture #4954 in your instruction.

AHU IP top and middle seals leaking

Talked to runonbeer a couple of weeks ago re replacing the IP top cover seal and he was extremely helpful. So I got the seal, ordered the antitamper socket from metalnerd (ordered Sat, showed up on Mon - awesome), and worked up enough courage to try it.

I should have put a rag behind the IP, I didn't know how much fuel would come out. I also heard a sucking sound coming from the small hole in the top of the cover so I tied to work quickly thinking the longer I'm at this, the more air I let in the system. I had previously cleaned everything around the pump per this thread's instructions. The antitamper bolt and the torx30s were not really tight. And since I don't have a tork wrench I was trying to pay very close attention to the amount of force required to loosen them, thinking I would use a similar feel for tightening. The seal did not want to come out of the channel it was in. I gently used a shop knife to get an edge under it careful not to score the aluminum cover. It was obvious there was only one way the seal could go in. I replaced the seal, made sure it was seated correctly in its channel, and put the cover back in place. I tightened the bolts a few turns each in a cross pattern hoping to compress the new seal evenly. I tightened as far as I dared fearing stripping or cracking the cast aluminum.

It still leaks. It doesn't leak as much when its warm, and this confirmed that middle seal is leaking also. This went pretty well for a couple of days but this morning was pretty cold and there was diesel pooled around the top of the antitamper bolt - which is above the level of the cover seal!

I'm wondering if I just didn't tighten the bolts down enough. I could feel the resistance of the seal as it started to compress and then once it felt like it snugged up tight after that, I stopped. Can anyone tell me what these bolts should be torked to?

I'm going to order the middle seal and try the scoring method for centering the middle section. I don't understand how this could still be leaking from the top cover seal if it has a new seal in it. I also don't understand how fuel could be pooling up around the antitamper bolt.

Sorry for the long post. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Blake

Since the bolts are outside of the seal area, my bet is either not tight enough, or the seal slipped outside of the slots. Pop the top off and look.

I'm wondering if I just didn't tighten the bolts down enough. I could feel the resistance of the seal as it started to compress and then once it felt like it snugged up tight after that, I stopped. Can anyone tell me what these bolts should be torked to?

Click to expand...

I don't think Bentley gives this number but I would guess around 15 ft/lbs would be fine, definately try again... Don't replace the middle seal unless your sure it's leaking.

I'll try 15lbs. Maybe the problem is I was putting tork on it instead of torque . I'm sure the middle seal is leaking due to the warm days I had when the top seal did not leak (which I checked at every stop much to the chagrin of my passengers). Unfortunately, VW does not sell the middle seal, just the top seal. I know I saw a link for a seal kit, I just have to find it. I can also double check the top seal is in its channel correctly.

Just borrowed my neighbors torque wrench and I was already really close to 15lbs. Only got about a quarter turn per bolt. Fired her up and checked the pump - leaked pretty bad from the middle seal. I'm guessing fuel is following the antitamper bolt hole which goes throught the middle section, up the bolt and pooling at the top. Going to find the link for the seal kit and order it now.

Did the head o-ring seal replacement on my pump last night as it had recently started to drip out quite a bit of fuel when the engine was cold. Thanks again for the work in coming up with this procedure and the excellent write up!

I would make one recommendation to anyone who is going to do this on their car. Get a small inspection mirror and use it to inspect the bottom side of the pump for dirt before installing the o-ring, and after the o-ring is slipped over the head to make sure that the o-ring is seated in the groove fully before re-tightening. Mine caught up on the bottom side somehow and I snugged all of the screws up without noticing anything from the top. When I went to prime the pump I couldn't, and I could hear it wheezing air from the bottom of the pump..... turns out that the o-ring had been cut during the re-tightening process.

Fortunately I had ordered two from Jim (dieselgeek) with the intention of replacing one on a friends car later, so I just started over and did the procedure a second time. This time I used the mirror to make sure the o-ring was seated properly first and everything went just fine. No more leak.

Chris

Good advice! I added this helpful hint to my install manual. Thanks for that...

Jim, did you ever locate a source for the input shaft seals? I'm still monitoring what continues to be a very slow seeping from mine.....
Thanks again for all the money and hassle you (and runonbeer) have saved me with this seal replacement procedure!

Chris

mcwig said:

Jim, did you ever locate a source for the input shaft seals? I'm still monitoring what continues to be a very slow seeping from mine.....
Thanks again for all the money and hassle you (and runonbeer) have saved me with this seal replacement procedure!

Chris

Click to expand...

The part number for the front seal is 1 460 283 311 but my supplier is out of stock and I don't have grand plans on offering them. Check with your local Bosch diesel service center to see if they stock them. Should be the same PN as a Cummins engine.

Well I am finally ready to change out the head and middle seals on my IP. All the parts are here and I have Saturday morning set aside. I used the vag-com to read my IQ and it was about 3.8 to 4.2 mg/str. The voltage was between 1.52 and 1.60 V. Wish me luck. It is really leaking like crazy.

A few last questions. I can not tell which seal is for the top and which is for the middle, one does look a little larger (longer) than the other. Also does it matter what the orientation is, what is the top side of the seal and what is the bottom? Where does the little triangle go, is there a notch for it?

Thanks,
Eric