ALH vs. BEW vs. BRM

Did some searching but wanted to start a thread for more opinions.
I had and loved my '01 Golf TDI for years. I sold it to my best bud to get a Jeep Liberty CRD. I like the Liberty, but it's not a TDI.

I'm looking for a low mileage TDI that I can get to about 200hp 330ft lbs.
I always thought I'd go back to an ALH, but thinking I may want something a little newer. My folks have an '05 Wagon and have had the cam issue, but see there's some new cams that solve that (Franko6 & Colt Cams). Seems like the BEW/BRM are a little smoother than the ALHs
I do like the styling/upgraded interior and handling of the '05.5/'06s.
Do the 5 speeds in the A5s have the flywheel problems or just the DSG?

So for a good daily driver, ~200hp/330ft lbs What direction should I go? Looks like the usual bolt ons will be done turbo/nozzles, etc.
I'd also like to do a little autocrossing and take it to the NOLA motorsports park to push it around the twisties

From my reading it will be big $ to get 200hp from a pd. If that is your goal an alh is probably what you want.

BRM: Larger turbo, larger nozzles, tune.

ALH: Larger turbo, Larger nozzles, Tune.

Nozzles for the ALH are cheaper and easier to install though, a PD's injectors need to be calibrated after upgrade.

In all honesty, the PD may be cheaper, as the ALH will need an 11mm pump and other odds and ends.

I love my '06 and wouldn't trade it for anything else. Im at 130hp and 210lb. ft. with just a tune. after nozzles and a turbo(17/22),i should be at about 230hp and 350lb. ft.

Its your call, same coin either way you flip it.

Thanks y'all! I'm leaning towards a PD Golf or the A5 Jetta. I really do like the styling/handling of those A5 Jettas

BEW hands down is the cheapest TDI to mod. Just a VNT17 alone(drops right in) and a tune will give you 150HP+ range. You don't even have to touch the injectors for that. Most MK4/ALH stuff will work as well.

The BRM in the MK5 chassis is still very limited to upgrade support plus it has smaller injectors and a weak cam.

My A5 Jetta had 145 hp at the wheels with just a tune (RC2+) tested on the dyno. I have read the bew also may suffer from the cam issue, just not as often.

None of the mods mentioned above will get you to 200/300. You need more fuel, better exhaust, and better intercooling in a BEW, bigger turbo that won't be plug-and-play in a BRM along with bigger injectors and exhaust, and breathing mods in an ALH, bigger pump, rods, head porting, lift pump, and so on. Getting to 160-180 in any of these engines is relatively easy. The next 20 HP is a lot more expensive.

I vote BRM.

Find one that needs a cam. Buy a Franko6 camshaft kit and a turbo kit from RyanP (Darkside Development) and a tune.

Should EASILY get you to 200/300.

Check it out.

Good luck and let us know what you do. :>)


df

I have read that the stock injectors won't flow enough for that. So close to $3k american$ for turbo and injectors and misc. plus another $1500 or so for cam and another $600 maybe for a custom tune and $500 for new exhaust and you are at $5.6k for parts only.

No matter which choice is made big dollars will need to be spent to get to 200 hp. For a daily driver I would choose an A5 and Rocketchip tune alone. Plenty of power and good handling without spending huge $'s. If you can find one cheap that needs work all the better.

Thanks!! It will be split with my BMW R1200GSA motorcycle for a daily driver. I had always planned on building up my previous '01 Golf but being a student I never had the $$. Now I'm working 12 hour days 7 days a week so I don't mind spending a few $

What I've read (haven't really been on TDIClub for a few years), seems like a few BRM owners have gone with the PD140 turbo, nozzles in the BEW injectors and a tune to get some pretty nice power.

Either way I'm kind of planning on a cam on either the BEW or BRM. I chased a cam problem on my parents '05 Wagon for a while.

Thanks for the input, keep it coming!

Yes, with RyanP's kits you'll need a set of nozzles for your stock injectors. The BRM and BEW injectors are fine, you just need larger (higher flowing) nozzles.

df

I prefer the ALH for a variety of reasons, though through design the PD (especially BEW) is better suited toward higher outputs without changing as many internal parts. Doesnt hurt to change them anyway...but the PD will support higher ratings with less propensity to vent the head gasket. Although that can be solved on ALH as well.

You can get a PD150 injectors cheaper than larger ALH injectors and a 11mm Injection pump.

The PD head flows slightly better also.

The one advantage to the ALH is you can rev it higher.

Follow what I did...Profit?

dieselpower04 said:

Follow what I did...Profit?

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Thinking about that.... better yet, sell me that beauty and go for the Passat wagon, much comfier for the baby!

VWBeamer said:

You can get a PD150 injectors cheaper than larger ALH injectors and a 11mm Injection pump.

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Do the PD100 (BEW) Injectors fit the BRM? I've read by DBW that the BEW with nozzles (783?) out perform the PD150s. And figured I could pick PD100s up cheaper than the PD150s...

Going to test drive an '06 with 125k on it today. Looks like a one owner that showed up at auction then a local dealer. I'd like lower miles, but it's local

Watch out for that cam...

Did some reading before heading over to drive the '06. Looks like most people are replacing the cam at the 100k mark or sooner...

The local '06 has 125k on it. Definitely low on power, but smooth-ish. Not the typical stutter/stumble. It did have a distinctive buzz on any sort of throttle. Poked around the engine with my buddy blipping the throttle (no buzz at idle) and sounds like an exhaust leak, had a slight exhaust smell in the engine bay. Dumb Kia salesman said it was on the original timing belt and the service guys would have replaced it if it needed it. OH well. Offered them $8k (asking $10,880) But after thinking about it probably wouldn't pay over $7k for it.

slamhouse said:

...I love my '06 and wouldn't trade it for anything else. Im at 130hp and 210lb. ft. with just a tune. after nozzles and a turbo(17/22),i should be at about 230hp and 350lb. ft...

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17/22 won't fit on a BRM w/o completely "redesigning the wheel" so to speak. BRM has a top-mounted turbo, not nearly as many bolt-on options nor development done in the form of a kit.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

None of the mods mentioned above will get you to 200/300. You need more fuel, better exhaust, and better intercooling in a BEW, bigger turbo that won't be plug-and-play in a BRM along with bigger injectors and exhaust, and breathing mods in an ALH, bigger pump, rods, head porting, lift pump, and so on. Getting to 160-180 in any of these engines is relatively easy. The next 20 HP is a lot more expensive.

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+1, major understatement as it pertains to the BRM. Those last 20-30 ponies are very pricey.

dieselfuel said:

I vote BRM.

Find one that needs a cam. Buy a Franko6 camshaft kit and a turbo kit from RyanP (Darkside Development) and a tune.

Should EASILY get you to 200/300...

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Darkside has no turbo kits for a North American MkV PD that I have seen. His MkV kit is for the 16 valve BKD engine we didn't get.

Don't get me wrong, I love my '06 BRM. I just know what took to get the power goal the OP set and it was not easy nor cheap. IMO it is the hardest and most expensive of the cars the OP mentioned to get to over 200 WHP. The '04-'05 BEW cars are a little easier since the well developed ALH kits more or less bolt on, but then you have to deal with putting in a an FMIC whereas the BRM has a pretty good one from the factory.

A5INKY said:

Don't get me wrong, I love my '06 BRM. I just know what took to get the power goal the OP set and it was not easy nor cheap. IMO it is the hardest and most expensive of the cars the OP mentioned to get to over 200 WHP. The '04-'05 BEW cars are a little easier since the well developed ALH kits more or less bolt on, but then you have to deal with putting in a an FMIC whereas the BRM has a pretty good one from the factory.

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Thanks! Maybe the 200whp is a bit of a lofty goal?

Dealer came back with $8360 tax and all on the '06 Not too sure about it though.... I am more of a Golf kind of guy.

For the BRM pull back to the PD140 based GTB hybrid from Scroll or just an OEM PD140 turbo, properly set-up PD150 (or even R783 nozzles) to keep injector duration (and EGTs) short/efficient and a proper tune. That will get you a very fun 180+WHP car with better than stock highway fuel economy and really good scoot when the go-pedal is pressed. The cost would be a fraction of the cost of a true 200+WHP.

It really is that last 20-30 HP that is so expensive. So many headaches are avoided by limiting to that level and the car will live for a long time w/o extraordinary service.

I have not mentioned basic supporting mods like a clutch and 12.9 ARL head bolts but anyone modding to that level should just expect those things.

A5INKY said:

17/22 won't fit on a BRM w/o completely "redesigning the wheel" so to speak. BRM has a top-mounted turbo, not nearly as many bolt-on options nor development done in the form of a kit.

.

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I should have been more clear, I would be fabricating my own exhaust manifold and down pipe. If there is much interest in a kit for the BRM, I may mass produce and sell bolt-on kits for the BRM for a 17/22 turbo.

slamhouse said:

I should have been more clear, I would be fabricating my own exhaust manifold and down pipe. If there is much interest in a kit for the BRM, I may mass produce and sell bolt-on kits for the BRM for a 17/22 turbo.

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You mean the 17/22 with the integrated cast manifold? Why? The GTB1756VK is a superior turbo for essentially no more money and you can buy a beautiful manifold from Driver's Fire already.



Either way, the work is in the turbo inlet pipe, charge piping and exhaust system.

Sorry, don't want to be a downer. Just doesn't make much sense to go backward in turbo technology and do more work at greater cost to get there.

This pleases me

[Darkside has no turbo kits for a North American MkV PD that I have seen. His MkV kit is for the 16 valve BKD engine we didn't get.

[/QUOTE]


Then you should tell RyanP, because he thinks he has. LOL!

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-gtb-turbo-kit-for-1-9-8v-tdi-engines.html

dieselfuel said:

Then you should tell RyanP, because he thinks he has. LOL!

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-gtb-turbo-kit-for-1-9-8v-tdi-engines.html

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I did business with Ryan throughout my build with him sourcing quite a few of my parts. That kit will not reasonably work on on a BRM engined car. Yes, anything is possible but it would take a complete change of IC pipe layout that would result in miles of tubing looking like spaghetti under the hood. Ryan should be more specific in his marketing of that kit to limit it to 2005 Jetta (BEW).

But what do I know? I only have a 200+ WHP BRM with a GTB turbo.

A5INKY, just sent you a pm.

Just curious, but what's stopping someone from removing everything from the back of the BRM and bolting on a 17/22 and making the pipework? You can use a BEW downpipe and adapt it to fit the rest of the system, and the intake pipework is relatively simple to make...

The BRM seems to be completely different layout than the BEW. Its a completely different engine. Nothing is the same.

BEW was easy because it has the same exact layout as the ALH....

I would say we are a bit off the OP's topic here, but they are looking primarily at a MKV BRM car, so perhaps this stuff is of interest to them.

TDIJetta99 said:

Just curious, but what's stopping someone from removing everything from the back of the BRM and bolting on a 17/22 and making the pipework? You can use a BEW downpipe and adapt it to fit the rest of the system, and the intake pipework is relatively simple to make...

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Oh it probably could be done, anything is possible. But I could not justify it, too much work for a turbo I am not too fond of anyway. Sorry, but the 17/22 is yesterday's news at this point

However, if one were to go down that path they would have to get rid of the EGR cooler, it looks like it would be in the way. This is no biggy as most folks modding are only racing off-road anyway . If one were to then make all new charge pipes and reverse the direction of flow through the FMIC (necessitating the relocation of the MAP sensor) you could then get rid of the ASV and purchase a driver side inlet intake and keep the IC piping almost as short as stock. Then all you have is to do is cobble a new TIP or try to adapt a system from a MKIV car to a MKV. A BEW DP might work, might not, again there are some differences between the different gen chassis. This if course is assuming that the turbo will fit in it's hole down there where none was designed to fit (IDK, it might).

My GTB turbo build was not plug 'n play by any means, but with the manifold I got from DF above, and some mods to the turbo compressor outlet, most of the OEM charge pipes were fairly easy to connect to. The TIP needed only a fairly simple adapter to the stock airbox. With DF's ingeneous modular (adjustible) V-band connected DP from his MKIV design, the exhaust was fairly straight forward too. It was the custom DF dual plenum intake that made my hardware a bit harder to put together, it's kind of big.