B5.5 Passat 6 speed manual trans swap

A few of us have been "talking" about upgrading from an automatic trans to a 6 speed manual trans in our B5.5 Passat's for a few years. This came up again while we were at the N.A.I.A.S. GTG in Detroit this weekend. I get all warm & fuzzy whenever this topic is brought up so, I figured this would be the thread to discuss what needs to be done to accomplish this and perhaps actually do this swap instead of talking & fantasizing about it.

Oilhammer mentioned that the B5 TDI's don't have the software option to be recoded from an auto to a manual like the Jetta's do. We both said that we wouldn't want to do the swap & have the CEL lite up afterwards. I'm looking for input from tuners to see if they can provide a solution or software change to either recode the ECU or to make it not throw codes for the new manual trans.

As far as transmissions that would work with our longitudinal engines, the only one I'm aware of is the O1E that would have to be imported (TDI gearing of course). Are there other options or is this the only/best one to use? Does anyone have the R&P and gear ratio's?

Another big concern is will this trans fit with our stock sub-frame or will that need to be changed or modified? Will the exhaust need to be moved to make room?

Like other auto to manual swaps we're going to need additional parts & pieces to make this work. I don't have access to Etka to look up parts nor do I have the knowledge, skills, or tools to do the swap. So if anyone can help with part #'s, that would be great. Fortunately, there are people near me that can pull of the installation

I don't mind being the guinea pig and having this done to my car. I just don't want to buy parts & find out afterwards that it won't work or fit and be out time & $$$. I also don't want to be in that situation where I forgot to order a part that is only avail over in Europe and have my car torn apart for several weeks or months. I'd like to make a detailed list of what needs to be changed & ordered beforehand so there is minimal downtime when the swap is performed.

Is there anything else that will make this swap easier or more difficult to do vs the Jetta swaps?

www.vagcat.com

afaik for the 6spd swap you need:

- 6spd tranny
- 240mm flywheel + clutch & plate
- subframe
- startermotor
- inner cv joints
- new gear knob

for the swap from auto to manual also the clutch pedal (pedal assembly)
wiring from clutch switch to ecu and manual ecu software...

JW

The conversion should use similar parts to the Golf/Jetta conversions, i can't see why the gearbox would foul anything on the car that isn't removable. the 6 speeds are not 'common' over here with TDi gearing, 5 speeds are easily available!

Shipping will be £100 or so more expensive due to the size/weight compared to an 02M gearbox.

I am not sure you'll need a subframe, here is a picture from my 5 speed B5 TDI


My transmission sits behind the subframe.

I might take a look in VCDS on a friends B5.5 TDI to see if the transmission coding is available. My coding got messed up some how when I swapped chips once and I got a flashing glow plug light and I'd get RPM "blips" where the RPM would continue to go up about 200rpm when I let off the petal and hit the clutch(depending on the rate of acceleration).

You might be able to swap in an euro ECU and adjust that.

You will also need a needle bearing for the end of the crank shaft

I would think that someone has done the swap, hopefully Scott Dewitt will weigh in here.

Jon

You know I'm always up for strange projects . Pick up Compu85 on your way down to help with the wiring and I'll switcheroo the big parts while he's playing doctor with the wiring. Would be a good weekend project.

Making some slow progress. My biggest concern right now is making sure we can get the ECU to recognize the manual trans. vwmikel has a potential solution to that and I'm trying to find a spare Euro ECU part # 038 906 016 with a suffix of (AN AP AQ BQ DR ET FA FM HA) that was used with a BKD engine.

I still have no idea what would be involved with wiring so I think it's time to consult with Compu_85 and his mad electrical skills

As I noted in my PM the wiring shouldn't be too bad. With a copy of the car's current wiring diagrams I should be able to figure it out. The main challenges I forsee will be the starter and reverse light wiring, which won't be that bad at all. If mike can get around the tune issues in the engine computer computer the trans computer can just be unplugged and the wiring left in place. The CAN gateway can probably be recoded easily. I think Oilhammer mentioned that the transmission has its own harness on that car... who knows, it might be possible to just remove the whole harness (depending on how much of the interior you want to take out )

Something else we will want is the wiring diagrams for a euro TDI... we need to know where to hook up the clutch vacuum vent valve switch! The other clutch switch, which is just a starter interlock, can be omitted IMO.

I know on the A platform cars quite a bit gets tweaked when you switch from the auto to the manual tune. For example the manual tune looks to see if you have the clutch pressed in, and switches some things around to make shifting smoother when you do. The automatic program ignores this.

Oilhammer, can the trans in these cars operate at all with no computer input? If so it would be easy to "simulate" the swap beforehand by unplugging the TCU and seeing what modules get unhappy.

-J

JFettig said:

I am not sure you'll need a subframe, here is a picture from my 5 speed B5 TDI

My transmission sits behind the subframe.

Click to expand...

IIRC, the difference is in the mounting of the transmission.
from this thread

Scott_DeWitt said:

greengeeker said:

Go through the auto to manual swap for the mk4's (seach for the word "wabbit") to get a general idea what work is involved.


Hardware to be changed out:

1. clutch pedal assembly
2. trans
3. axles
4. flywheel, clutch, pressure plate
5. shifter assembly
6. starter?
7. trans mounts?
8. Remove/plug trans cooler lines
9. Remove TCU

Wiring to be completed:

1. clutch starter interrupt
2. clutch cruise cancel
3. backup lights

Recode ecu for manual transmission

Click to expand...

that's mostly correct except the starter is the same, you also need the subframe.

Click to expand...

I've rebuild and sold dozens if not hundreds of the 01E FWD 6 speed gearboxes. Most however have gone to buyers doing mid engine project cars and numbers of Ls1 powered kit cars.

There is essentially on final drive ratio and gear set, there are others but they are very rare and very difficult to located, meaning they are much more expensive than the normal 6 speeds.

Also pretty much 100% of the FWD 01E's had pinion bearing problems due to a faulty piece of equipment at the Getrag plant. If the pinion bearing hadn't been replaced in the past it will need replacement.

Due to the popularity of the 01E in the kit car crowd, and the pinion bearing issue, the 01E is a very expensive gearbox, which is why i offer a used tdi 5 speed for about a third the cost.

There are later models of 6 speed but they lack speedometer pickups and have totally different transmission mountings meaning quite a bit of custom fabrication to retrofit.

IIRC for the 5 speed conversion you need a subframe from a 5 speed car, and for the 6 speed conversion you can use the existing subframe.

The automatic probably robs 15 hp. More power to the wheels baby

Scott_DeWitt said:

I've rebuild and sold dozens if not hundreds of the 01E FWD 6 speed gearboxes. Most however have gone to buyers doing mid engine project cars and numbers of Ls1 powered kit cars.

Click to expand...

Scott, what clutch do you sell that you would recommend with the 01E that will support 400 ft lbs or more?

i would think a properly modified auto trans, higher stall speed tc, will be faster than a manual trans 5 or 6sp as the problem has always been that your boost drops between shifts on a turbo diesel. either paddle or foot switches could be used to control trans. it would probably cost less as well. of course you wouldn't have the fun of rowing.

There have been several discussions, here and elsewhere, where the subframe being changed is required but not with supporting documentation ie: part numbers or direct measurements. Can anyone here provide this information?

The BHW cars use the GMR transmission, and for some reason they list a specific subframe just for that car.

4B0-399-313-DK

There are 2 other subframe part numbers listed for FWD cars with automatic transmissions, so I assume that means both the AWM (1.8t) and ATQ (V6) also have their own specific subframe, part number suffixes DH and CT.

I have been under a bazillion B5s, and I know there are a couple differences in the subframes, but nothing for sure jumps out at me as to why they made them different.

The FWD cars with manual transmission list 1 more subframe part number, one for ATQ and one for AWM (they show 4 and 6 cyl). And then even MORE part numbers for 4mo cars and for the W8s... and this is all just on the Volkswagen side... who knows what the Audi side has as they have V8s, biturbo V6s, CVTs, etc. For some reason, one of the [gas] engines uses the same subframe for automatic OR manual.

VAG is crazy with these subframes... All I know for sure is, they all mount up to the body the same way, they all have the engine and trans mounts in what looks to be the same spots. So this may not be an issue, really.

The B5's transmission wiring is totally seperate from the engine harness. I have removed the entire engine harness for changing an engine, and never had to mess with the trans harness, that goes all by itself down the left (driver's side) of the subframe and has 2 plugs: one into the trans case itself that goes to the valve body, the other to the gear position sensor on the side of the transmission. It looks to go up into the main junction/pass through box in the cowl area. I am betting it can easily be removed all by itself without cutting or splicing into anything.

Just a few other thoughts:

Instruments: can we recode the cluster to not care about the TCM? Or would it even matter, as our cars' standard red pixel MFA display is the same for manual Passats as well (so we would not be staring at a blank gray display like the G/J of 01M vintage).

CAN Gateway: again, probably just a recode, but what to code it to? Same as a 5sp AWM car?

ABS controller: probably can be recoded easily enough, the transmission is a standalone digit in the coding, I doubt the ABS controller would care that you were inputting a soft code for a combo that did not exist here.

Engine ECU: we need to make certain all our readiness monitors and such are still intact, and functional. I do not think a tuner should have much trouble with this, but simply using a Euro-spec 4cyl PD/manual ECU won't work. Volkswagen did list a BGW engine in Euro ETKA, which is the same as the BHW just bolted to a manual transmission, but it seems they never actually built any... maybe that was slated for us but got canned?

Sprocket said:

Scott, what clutch do you sell that you would recommend with the 01E that will support 400 ft lbs or more?

Click to expand...

Southbend stage III and solid flywheel is likely the best.

I know with the 1.8t gas Passats, the tranny end of the crankshaft is different between auto and manual. The bore in the center I think is larger to accept the roller bearing. I mic'd these one time when I had them side by side but don't recall if it is a matter of just inserting a bearing or not. Don't think it was that simple. I will check the BHW crank (which is for sale) I have on my bench and see if the roller bearng I have will fit with no mods.

vwztips said:

I know with the 1.8t gas Passats, the tranny end of the crankshaft is different between auto and manual. The bore in the center I think is larger to accept the roller bearing. I mic'd these one time when I had them side by side but don't recall if it is a matter of just inserting a bearing or not. Don't think it was that simple. I will check the BHW crank (which is for sale) I have on my bench and see if the roller bearng I have will fit with no mods.

Click to expand...

we did a few clutch swaps in my garage, my B5 AHH 5 speed and an ALH 5 speed. I had an extra needle bearing and I checked to see if it would go in, just by starting past the radius on the needle bearing, it appeared that it would press right in.

Oilhammer, would it help to inspect my car sometime? I need to make a road trip with it this summer, somewhere. I have a 5 speed 012 on the longitudinal equivalent of an AHU(with a big IP).

Jon

JFettig said:

we did a few clutch swaps in my garage, my B5 AHH 5 speed and an ALH 5 speed. I had an extra needle bearing and I checked to see if it would go in, just by starting past the radius on the needle bearing, it appeared that it would press right in.

Oilhammer, would it help to inspect my car sometime? I need to make a road trip with it this summer, somewhere. I have a 5 speed 012 on the longitudinal equivalent of an AHU(with a big IP).

Jon

Click to expand...

Your engine (and much of the car) is very different. Engine is 100% totally different, and shares no parts with the BHW. Your car still uses the old EA827 engine, dating back to 1974. Our cars use the newer EA113 engine, which debuted in 1998, but the B5s did not get them until the 2001.5 mid-year change.

The basic platform is not drastically different, though, and the transmission is probably a good one to use... but since yours is the only one....

just joined the group I am in the middle of a b5.5 5 speed swap. I got it all up and running on saturday. What I need help with is the check engine light. I left the TCU plugged in and it is seeing faults from the transmission. I was advised by a few people to unplug the TCU and now I have check engine light, abs, and traction control. I have been emailing ross-tech and thats who linked me to the post. They told me that I might be able to recode the abs controller. I was having trouble logging in I will call them tomorrow and hopefully get the ABS, and the traction control light out.
The problem is I dont know if the CEL will go off and if it does not can someone reprogram it to not look for the TCM. Ross-tech says their is no program available for the BHW with manual trans. I think they used a 1.9l in europe.

Any help would be appreciated. I can now offer a full list of what you really need to do a B5.5 5 speed swap if anyone wonts it

You probably want to recode the CAN gateway, that's what tells the abs computer what to expect... though it might be looking at the engine computer too and as others have noted the US b5.5 does not have a manual transmission program in the computer it seems

-J

I was told by ross-tech to follow the recode instructions on the wiki links. It starts out saying I should log in. do I go into the abs modual to do the log in? what login code do I use. Vag com has a bubble that has a basic settings # do I use it or is that a different #.
I tried to use that value and I did not seem to log in. I dont remember the last time I did it what it did to tell you that you are logged in.
Any ideas

Marc Ryan said:

just joined the group I am in the middle of a b5.5 5 speed swap. I got it all up and running on saturday. What I need help with is the check engine light. I left the TCU plugged in and it is seeing faults from the transmission. I was advised by a few people to unplug the TCU and now I have check engine light, abs, and traction control. I have been emailing ross-tech and thats who linked me to the post. They told me that I might be able to recode the abs controller. I was having trouble logging in I will call them tomorrow and hopefully get the ABS, and the traction control light out.
The problem is I dont know if the CEL will go off and if it does not can someone reprogram it to not look for the TCM. Ross-tech says their is no program available for the BHW with manual trans. I think they used a 1.9l in europe.

Any help would be appreciated. I can now offer a full list of what you really need to do a B5.5 5 speed swap if anyone wonts it

Click to expand...

Hey Marc,

I hope that Tristar is treating you well!

Congrats on getting the 5 spd in. I'm sure we're all curious to know exactly what is and isn't required. Did you use a NA spec gasser trans or did you get a Euro TDI unit?


Rob

You *should* be able to recode the ABS module, as the coding reflects brake package, engine, transmission seperately. You have to decipher this via the 3-digit build codes on the tag in the trunk however. Since this car did not originally have a manual transmission, you will need to find the code from a B5 that does. Good news is, there are only 2 coding choices anyways: manual or automatic, makes no difference which particular build code.

The system is Bosch 5.7

Your brake code is 1LE (coding 3th place = 5)
Your engine code is T6V (coding 4th place = 7)

So your old soft coding would have been: 09577

0 = B5
9 = Passat
5 = brake package
7 = BHW engine
7 = automatic trans

Your new soft coding will be: 09575, the last digit gets changed from a 7 to a 5.

I cannot find my login cheat sheet though... I will look some more. I just went through this recently, I should have it somewhere.

But as far as coding the TCM out of the engine controller and instruments, I am not sure.

Rob the tristar is great it is now running a ALH with an AHU harness. the trans I am running is out of a euro 1.9 passat David Marshall had a spare one from an engine swap into his tristar.


oilhammer
where do I find this soft coding? is it under ABS the only thing I find under abs is the coding 04257?

Marc,

I sent you a PM. I'm likely either doing a swap next week or replacing my transmission and am looking for instructions.

The best person to talk to about the ECU coding is Jeff Robertson at Rocketchip. He know more about these ECUs than just about anyone else.

Contact RocketChip

General Contact Information & Times - Red Lion, PA. office

HOURS: Mon - Fri. 9am - 4:30pm,
and weekends at gtg's and shows, or by appt. (visits by appointment only) (717) 676-8755 mobile

info@rocketchip.com


Please post what you find out.

Can a different ECU be used to adapt the manual tranny to this engine and get everything else to work out?

Jon

JFettig said:

Can a different ECU be used to adapt the manual tranny to this engine and get everything else to work out?

Jon

Click to expand...

Possibly,

I spoke to MrChill about this this morning (He has my car, I'm not touching it myself). The two options are to have the ECU recoded to tell it that it has a manual tranny or to swap in a Euro ECU that is already configured for a manual.

At this point, I think money and time constraints will prevent me from doing this. I really wish my tranny held out til Sept when my son goes off to college and we had a spare car. Then it would be a lot more likely to happen.

What about a transmission out of a V6 gasser? I'm told the gearing is similar, and they're readily available. A used one of those might be less than a used or reman'd auto.