Audi A4R4 450HP CBEA (CR) Build
- Thread starter TDIsyncro
- Start date
shadowmaker
Veteran Member
Interesting...Rub87 said:
Hmm... And I don't even have oil galleries on my pistons.
I'm going to make grooves under my pistons -> more area to cool. And use big oil cooler. No sump though.
shizzler
Veteran Member
Make sure to give this lots of thought before you commit to a cooling nozzle alteration strategy.
Adding a second nozzle might seem like an easy improvement.... until you consider the flow of oil through the piston. It is designed to flow in one side, splash throughout and then exit the other side. If you force oil into both sides of the piston there is the potential for a partial stagnation of oil flow within the cooling gallery. If you get burnt / coked oil within the gallery then you are effectively adding insulation from the piston, too, further hindering heat transfer. Your best bet would be to simply get more oil in (enlarge / bump pressure of current squirter) and then let more oil out of the piston. Pistons with cooling gallerys are usually NOT full, maybe 50% at best. One major reason for this is that the oil jet stream is not engaged with the gallery entrance hole at all parts of the stroke. Sometimes this is the goal though, to splash the rest of the undercrown and hit the pin joint. I am not familiar with the TDI design goal, but it looks like the nozzles basically point straight up, so that's good. Furthermore the stream is often slower than the piston moves up in the bore at higher rpm, so it only fills on the downstroke. Adding a supplemental oil drain hole that would drip/splash over the wrist pin joint would be a good idea, too. You can never have too much oil on the wrist pin / pin bores of the piston.
I'm also nervous about your "billet" pistons. I don't recall if you mentioned the material. Steel or aluminum? Aluminum without a reinforced top ring groove will NOT survive long at full load. You'll get a lot of top ring pound out, micro-welding in the groove, etc. Eventually oil consumption and blow-by will suffer with even bore scuffing possible, or piston failure. At the very least look into getting the entire top of the piston (or at least the top ring groove) anodized.
What is the nature of the machined in cooling passage also? How is that even possible on a billet piston?
In any case, when you do finally get this beast running and up to full power, I would suggest bore-scoping your cylinders OFTEN. Signs of piston crown melting should be pretty obvious, but also might happen too fast to catch.
Adding a second nozzle might seem like an easy improvement.... until you consider the flow of oil through the piston. It is designed to flow in one side, splash throughout and then exit the other side. If you force oil into both sides of the piston there is the potential for a partial stagnation of oil flow within the cooling gallery. If you get burnt / coked oil within the gallery then you are effectively adding insulation from the piston, too, further hindering heat transfer. Your best bet would be to simply get more oil in (enlarge / bump pressure of current squirter) and then let more oil out of the piston. Pistons with cooling gallerys are usually NOT full, maybe 50% at best. One major reason for this is that the oil jet stream is not engaged with the gallery entrance hole at all parts of the stroke. Sometimes this is the goal though, to splash the rest of the undercrown and hit the pin joint. I am not familiar with the TDI design goal, but it looks like the nozzles basically point straight up, so that's good. Furthermore the stream is often slower than the piston moves up in the bore at higher rpm, so it only fills on the downstroke. Adding a supplemental oil drain hole that would drip/splash over the wrist pin joint would be a good idea, too. You can never have too much oil on the wrist pin / pin bores of the piston.
I'm also nervous about your "billet" pistons. I don't recall if you mentioned the material. Steel or aluminum? Aluminum without a reinforced top ring groove will NOT survive long at full load. You'll get a lot of top ring pound out, micro-welding in the groove, etc. Eventually oil consumption and blow-by will suffer with even bore scuffing possible, or piston failure. At the very least look into getting the entire top of the piston (or at least the top ring groove) anodized.
What is the nature of the machined in cooling passage also? How is that even possible on a billet piston?
In any case, when you do finally get this beast running and up to full power, I would suggest bore-scoping your cylinders OFTEN. Signs of piston crown melting should be pretty obvious, but also might happen too fast to catch.
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
That does not surprise me. A friend of mine owns a diesel engine repair shop in town, and I have seen more than a few engines, including a Cummins 5.9, with melted pistons from plugged squirters. This is not happening during full power situations.Rub87 said:
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
@Shizzler Those are good points to think about.
I think I will do a bit of exploration on this issue starting with getting operating oil pressure range of OEM squirters. Followed by setting up a small test bench for the squirters so I can measure output at OEM range, and results of modificatins. I will compare to some BRM units I have here and perhaps play around with those ones first. I will be able to chart GPM verses oil pressure and nozzle size. I should also be able to verify oil velocity from squirter by knowing nozzle dia and flow rates (GPM).
The billet pistons would be anodized aluminum. The oil grove is contoured into the underside of piston, not internal to it. Marek had posted a pic of the billet piston he uses. If I could find it, you would see what I mean. Certainly without the reinforced ring landing, there is a trade of in Longevity. However, I think there is a chance we are a bit more critical on this than we should be because there seems to be a good number of 800+HP Dmax's out there running forged pistons with pretty good success, unless you have a list of examples showing otherwise. I have not heard of too many issues myself. I agree it will not be a 200k build, but it may be a 50k build, and I am fine with that kind of duty cycle. However, I still have not made my mind up on this issue of pistons. I should also point out that I will not be running 450hp all the time. I will probably run 350-400HP tune most of the time and heat things up once and a while (with my fingers crossed) just to see what the set-up can do.
I think I will do a bit of exploration on this issue starting with getting operating oil pressure range of OEM squirters. Followed by setting up a small test bench for the squirters so I can measure output at OEM range, and results of modificatins. I will compare to some BRM units I have here and perhaps play around with those ones first. I will be able to chart GPM verses oil pressure and nozzle size. I should also be able to verify oil velocity from squirter by knowing nozzle dia and flow rates (GPM).
The billet pistons would be anodized aluminum. The oil grove is contoured into the underside of piston, not internal to it. Marek had posted a pic of the billet piston he uses. If I could find it, you would see what I mean. Certainly without the reinforced ring landing, there is a trade of in Longevity. However, I think there is a chance we are a bit more critical on this than we should be because there seems to be a good number of 800+HP Dmax's out there running forged pistons with pretty good success, unless you have a list of examples showing otherwise. I have not heard of too many issues myself. I agree it will not be a 200k build, but it may be a 50k build, and I am fine with that kind of duty cycle. However, I still have not made my mind up on this issue of pistons. I should also point out that I will not be running 450hp all the time. I will probably run 350-400HP tune most of the time and heat things up once and a while (with my fingers crossed) just to see what the set-up can do.
shizzler
Veteran Member
Good to hear. Yeah you may be fine for at least 20-30k miles, who knows. It's really hard to know where to prioritize design attributes without some actual piston temp data. But "just" 350 HP is still going to be forcing a tremendous amount of heat into the piston.
I beg to differ on your assertion that the Cummins 5.9s and other melted piston engine failures "were not happening during full power" though. Without oil cooling the piston might survive just fine if power was capped at 50%. Its the full load operation that really drives piston temp into the critical range.
Interested to see your nozzle tests!
One other question, why does your girdle have to be thick enough to clear the bottom of the con-rod travel? Clearly you have the slots milled out for the rod clearance and oil drain anyway. Is your dry sump pan that shallow?
I beg to differ on your assertion that the Cummins 5.9s and other melted piston engine failures "were not happening during full power" though. Without oil cooling the piston might survive just fine if power was capped at 50%. Its the full load operation that really drives piston temp into the critical range.
Interested to see your nozzle tests!
One other question, why does your girdle have to be thick enough to clear the bottom of the con-rod travel? Clearly you have the slots milled out for the rod clearance and oil drain anyway. Is your dry sump pan that shallow?
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
I too have been loaded up with work in the past week or so and haven’t even communicated with Louis very often during this period as has been usual. I will try to address the last few recent posts here.TDIsyncro said:
I need stock cam specs to be able to go from there in my calculations and simulations.
M9 threads seem extremely unorthodox for VAG and general engineering practise. Are you sure about this?I have been making some slow progress on the girdle design. Just getting hole locations and some of the machining tolerance dims refined.
One of the steps was checking the bolt pattern with full scale paper template bolted to the block through the bolt holes for the mains, and pinning with the four corner oil pan bolt holes. The red circles indicate where additional holes are beng added to engage the BS rib holes and the two M9 holes at the rear of the block.
I see what you’re saying, we’ll discuss this.One of the Chalanges with this design is to make it deep enough to clear the rods at BDC.
Yes Brian, I’ve been back for over a month and we still haven’t gotten in contact. Please send me an e-mail with your phone number again. I look forward to catching up again.GoFaster said:
I agree with Shizzler. There are two holes in the OEM piston that lead into the cast-in annular oil cooling channel. One is for oil entry and the other for exit. If you spray oil into both simultaneously you will not allow the proper flow and likely make the thermal problem worse. A solution integrating 2 squirters might be to drill 2 holes and by appropriate plugging, each squirter would effectively serve one half of the piston. But if one squirter fails…….. I also don’t like the idea of drilling holes into the piston and plugging with material that will go up-and-down up to 6000 times a minute under huge thermal and mechanical loads.shizzler said:
Increasing the flow and velocity of the existing squirters and furthermore spraying oil from a cooler source seems to be a more attractive solution. I have not investigated it yet, but I suspect that modding the oil galleries to spray oil from a different source will prove easier said than done, requiring serious modifications to the oil galleries and being akin to doing a coronary bypass…
Keep also in mind that increasing flow rates and pressures in the lube system is nice to toss around, but doesn’t come for free. I don’t want a system that will take 20 HP just to drive! We need to think about our technical needs and solve them with the minimum expenditure of power, cost, complexity and risk.
The billet aluminum piston option is tdisyncro’s own initiative; I’m focusing on the turbocharging, cam and manifold development. We have been and will continue to discuss other project issues, but the pistons is his area of responsibility, just as each individual contributing in this project has his own respective primary responsibilities. Being billet, there are no provisions for an oil cooling channel, integrated expansion inserts or for top-ring reinforcement. The oil spray will simply hit the underside of the pistons, so it doesn’t really matter how the squirters are laid-out.
StingrayRT
Veteran Member
re
You meant this design
even after total engine damage ring area look nice
before
design stage
Stock piston as a replacement for damaged engine with new block OEM piston with all hardware as before 2 drag racing seasons on forged pistons with average 500Hp. Here is a example of OEM pistons -)
TDIsyncro said:@Shizzler Those are good points to think about.
I think I will do a bit of exploration on this issue starting with getting operating oil pressure range of OEM squirters. Followed by setting up a small test bench for the squirters so I can measure output at OEM range, and results of modificatins. I will compare to some BRM units I have here and perhaps play around with those ones first. I will be able to chart GPM verses oil pressure and nozzle size. I should also be able to verify oil velocity from squirter by knowing nozzle dia and flow rates (GPM).
The billet pistons would be anodized aluminum. The oil grove is contoured into the underside of piston, not internal to it. Marek had posted a pic of the billet piston he uses. If I could find it, you would see what I mean. Certainly without the reinforced ring landing, there is a trade of in Longevity. However, I think there is a chance we are a bit more critical on this than we should be because there seems to be a good number of 800+HP Dmax's out there running forged pistons with pretty good success, unless you have a list of examples showing otherwise. I have not heard of too many issues myself. I agree it will not be a 200k build, but it may be a 50k build, and I am fine with that kind of duty cycle. However, I still have not made my mind up on this issue of pistons. I should also point out that I will not be running 450hp all the time. I will probably run 350-400HP tune most of the time and heat things up once and a while (with my fingers crossed) just to see what the set-up can do.
You meant this design
even after total engine damage ring area look nice
before
design stage
Stock piston as a replacement for damaged engine with new block OEM piston with all hardware as before 2 drag racing seasons on forged pistons with average 500Hp. Here is a example of OEM pistons -)
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GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Given that this is a dry-sump lubrication system, it's gonna be a tricky, expensive oil pump no matter what. A dry-sump system needs a minimum of 2 separate oil pumps. It needs the main pressure pump (fed from the remote oil tank) to supply the main and rod bearings (and oil squirters from the overflow, if you wish), and it needs a scavenge pump to take oil out of the dry sump and send it back to the separate oil tank.TDIMeister said:
Making the main pressure pump higher volume and pressure to serve the oil squirters is one option, but it results in higher parasitic losses and puts more heat into the oil that you are trying to remove! The other choice is to have another low pressure pump whose function is solely to feed the oil squirters. Keep in mind that the scavenge pump has to have more volume capability than all other lubrication pumps put together.
It won't be cheap ... but a broken engine is more expensive than a fancier oil pump.
The link that I gave earlier shows how they can gang up multiple oil pumps in a racing dry-sump lube system. They are NOT CHEAP!
DBDieseler
Veteran Member
Casual observation from an inexperienced (but excited!) observer
The Duramax engines are 6.0L at the smallest...so at 800HP that's 133HP/L. This build is 450/2.0 = 225HP/L, or roughly equivalent to a 1350HP 6.0L engine. If you're running roughly twice the mentioned power density, you're burning roughly twice as much fuel in the same volume (at least how I see it?). Won't the piston/combustion chamber stresses be much higher?TDIsyncro said:
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Once I have cost on building the design I will post some jpg's of it. It will makes sense when you see it.shizzler said:
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Dave, I am pretty sure I used an M9x1.25 tap to clean those two thread holes. (EDIT - they are infact M10x1.25)
I am assuming the main disadvantage of just adding extra spray to the underside of the piston is that it does not do a great job at reducing the heat flow to the ring area. For a billet piston, Marek's pistons seem to address that problem as much as possable for an off center bowl billet piston. For a centered bowl, one should be able to have a good oil channel all the way around.
@StingrayRT - thanks for your post and pics. Yes, that is exactly what I was reffering too. As I mentioned above, the channel is not as good on the near bowl side, but that is solved with a centered bowl 16V psiton. Marek, you are running a 16V now. You must of gone with a custom billet 16V piston?
@GoFaster - we all ready have a 3 stage selected (two scavager pumps, and one pressure pump). We can add a secondary pressure section if required for squirters, however I am not sure if we can add a smaller displacement section. I would have to check with Issam on that.
@DBDieseler - dont forget that we are getting that HP at 5500RPM, not at 3800RPM. So the actual fuel/stroke is only a bit more than that of the 800HP DMAX example.
I am assuming the main disadvantage of just adding extra spray to the underside of the piston is that it does not do a great job at reducing the heat flow to the ring area. For a billet piston, Marek's pistons seem to address that problem as much as possable for an off center bowl billet piston. For a centered bowl, one should be able to have a good oil channel all the way around.
@StingrayRT - thanks for your post and pics. Yes, that is exactly what I was reffering too. As I mentioned above, the channel is not as good on the near bowl side, but that is solved with a centered bowl 16V psiton. Marek, you are running a 16V now. You must of gone with a custom billet 16V piston?
@GoFaster - we all ready have a 3 stage selected (two scavager pumps, and one pressure pump). We can add a secondary pressure section if required for squirters, however I am not sure if we can add a smaller displacement section. I would have to check with Issam on that.
@DBDieseler - dont forget that we are getting that HP at 5500RPM, not at 3800RPM. So the actual fuel/stroke is only a bit more than that of the 800HP DMAX example.
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and i dont see on topic(could have missed it)
THERMAL BARRIER COATING on piston crown, ther are some impressive results,
if you can reduce heat into piston top, it leaves more heat for expansion= torque. and reduce melted pistons!
I do LIKE that bushing in pin bore, allows more flex of pin without piston distortion, and possible failure. GOOD idea, who came up with that one???
THERMAL BARRIER COATING on piston crown, ther are some impressive results,
if you can reduce heat into piston top, it leaves more heat for expansion= torque. and reduce melted pistons!
I do LIKE that bushing in pin bore, allows more flex of pin without piston distortion, and possible failure. GOOD idea, who came up with that one???
shizzler
Veteran Member
Bushed piston pin bores have been around forever. Don't most VW diesel O.E. pistons have bushings?
I'm not sold on thermal barrier coatings for piston crowns myself, but this isn't my build, so...
I'm not sold on thermal barrier coatings for piston crowns myself, but this isn't my build, so...
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Shizzler, care to share with us why not?
shizzler
Veteran Member
Well, I'm no expert, yet. Just my opinions. And certainly protecting the bowl edge of the piston is always a good thing, as this is the predominant source of diesel piston failure at elevated power levels when simple mechanical failure (cracking) or pinbore scuffing/seizure due to heat induced deformation aren't issues..
But the rest of the piston is pretty much non-critical in terms of temperature, when geometrically designed properly (read - room to expand). So in essence the piston is an effective way to get heat out of the combustion chamber. There's a lot of heat transfer to the oil in the gallery, and heat flow through the top land-ring-cylinder liner and skirts to liner.
So if we reduce this heat path, where will it go? Purely into expansion energy? We're not adiabatic here... The cylinder liner will take more, thus expanding and distorting further. Increased cylinder bore distortion means higher oil consumption and blow-by (which often amounts to more serious power loss). The other main consequence would be increased exhaust gas temperatures. So if the plan is already to fuel heavy and run on the bleeding edge of EGT safety, piston insulation might hinder ultimate power due to EGT concern....? Just a thought.
Also the amount of fuel energy that goes into heating the piston during combustion / expansion stroke is a minor %. So power gains from insulating the piston should be minimal, I'd think. I would love to see some good data / papers on this though.
Finally I have seen instances of coating failure during engine durability tests. Certainly flakes of coating running through the valves and turbo wouldn't be good. Seems like a Swaintech coating or something of that nature should be pretty reliable though.
EDIT: Stingray! Can you possibly reduce the size of the failed rod pic? It makes it impossible to read any other post. thanks in advance.
But the rest of the piston is pretty much non-critical in terms of temperature, when geometrically designed properly (read - room to expand). So in essence the piston is an effective way to get heat out of the combustion chamber. There's a lot of heat transfer to the oil in the gallery, and heat flow through the top land-ring-cylinder liner and skirts to liner.
So if we reduce this heat path, where will it go? Purely into expansion energy? We're not adiabatic here... The cylinder liner will take more, thus expanding and distorting further. Increased cylinder bore distortion means higher oil consumption and blow-by (which often amounts to more serious power loss). The other main consequence would be increased exhaust gas temperatures. So if the plan is already to fuel heavy and run on the bleeding edge of EGT safety, piston insulation might hinder ultimate power due to EGT concern....? Just a thought.
Also the amount of fuel energy that goes into heating the piston during combustion / expansion stroke is a minor %. So power gains from insulating the piston should be minimal, I'd think. I would love to see some good data / papers on this though.
Finally I have seen instances of coating failure during engine durability tests. Certainly flakes of coating running through the valves and turbo wouldn't be good. Seems like a Swaintech coating or something of that nature should be pretty reliable though.
EDIT: Stingray! Can you possibly reduce the size of the failed rod pic? It makes it impossible to read any other post. thanks in advance.
shakescreek
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2005
- Location
- B.C. Canada
- TDI
- 18'6" welded aluminum jetboat with pd160, gtb2056vl, and tuning by rub87, 2003 chev blazer with bhw swap, 2000 jetta alh with gtd1752 vrk, .240 injectors, 11mm pump, fmic, 6 spd manual
I'm no expert either but I do have some positive first hand experience with thermal barrier coatings. On the mitsubishi diesel I had in my jetboat prior to the tdi, I had the piston crowns, head combustion surface and valve faces, exhaust ports, ex manifold, and ex housing on the turbo all coated and it made a very definite difference. About a 10% increase in power, about a 10% decrease in fuel burn, and a definite drop in the coolant temperature. The heat exchanger I was running was a little small for the engine and prior to the coating a hard pull would start to edge the temperature gauge up into the red and I would have to pull the throttle back keep from overheating the engine. After the coating there was no way I could get the gauge to rise above normal even at continuous full throttle. Another thing I noticed was before coating the old idi mitsubishi did not run very clean or have much power until it warmed up when starting out. After coating even with a cold engine it would pull full rpm's, rev much quicker and smoke a lot less well warming up. Never had an egt gauge on it so I can't commit on the effect on egt levels.
ryanp
Vendor
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2008
- Location
- Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
- TDI
- Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I'd like to find a reasonablly price Ceramic coaters in the UK, it would be nice to see the difference in my build. Still undecided as to the exact areas to coat, similar to Shakescreek,
piston crowns
head combustion surface
valves
exhaust ports
ex manifold
turbo housing
Downpipe
piston crowns
head combustion surface
valves
exhaust ports
ex manifold
turbo housing
Downpipe
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Ryan,
I will be coating piston crowns, head face, and exhaust ports. My exhaust valves are Ferrea super alloy (Inconel), so need to coat them.
I will be coating piston crowns, head face, and exhaust ports. My exhaust valves are Ferrea super alloy (Inconel), so need to coat them.
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Back to the discussion on piston squirters. I was studying the block tonight. I used compressed air to verify the oil holes/galleries. I took a few pictures and market it up with my findings.
I think a pressure tap at the entry to the main gallery will tell me enough about the effects of larger piston squirters nozzles. On second thoughts, perhaps a better thing to do is remove the gallery plug at the front of the block (where the gallery was drilled from) and tap that hole for some sort of fitting. Then connect the oil pressure gauge from that point. It will be tricky not interfering with the timing belt in that area and I cant verify this until I get my head back. With the dry sump system, the gallery from the oil pump and the return holes into the oil pan will not be used. I will install a blank of plate with appropriate 1" fittings from the external oil pump.
I think a pressure tap at the entry to the main gallery will tell me enough about the effects of larger piston squirters nozzles. On second thoughts, perhaps a better thing to do is remove the gallery plug at the front of the block (where the gallery was drilled from) and tap that hole for some sort of fitting. Then connect the oil pressure gauge from that point. It will be tricky not interfering with the timing belt in that area and I cant verify this until I get my head back. With the dry sump system, the gallery from the oil pump and the return holes into the oil pan will not be used. I will install a blank of plate with appropriate 1" fittings from the external oil pump.
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TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
INA said:That is how I did the MKIV 06A kits
you have room BUT you will not be able to use OEM covers
thats good to know. What tap and fitting did you use?
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Can somebody in Europe contact a dealer or wrecker and get me a part number and price on the accesory bracket for an Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDI? We have no availability or info for this in North America.
Thanks
Thanks
Scott_DeWitt
Vendor
Louis,
I'll have a price for you tomorrow.
I'll have a price for you tomorrow.
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Thanks Scott. We have been throwing around a few ideas on how to integrate the drysump pump and other accessories all together. This bracket seems to offer the best options.
Syncrogreg
Vendor
Tdi engine Management
Hey,
I like a lot your thread. I'm about to convert my vanagon to a CBE. Type engine. I would like to know better about the management you choose. I looked at Nira: http://www.niramotorsport.com/ , pecialist components: http://www.specialist-components.co.uk/ and Pro tech: http://www.protech-service-engineering.nl/
They all propose expensive management systems.
Are you going to use Bmw, VW, or other management system ?... I'm curious and would like to learn from you experience.
Thanks
Greg
Hey,
I like a lot your thread. I'm about to convert my vanagon to a CBE. Type engine. I would like to know better about the management you choose. I looked at Nira: http://www.niramotorsport.com/ , pecialist components: http://www.specialist-components.co.uk/ and Pro tech: http://www.protech-service-engineering.nl/
They all propose expensive management systems.
Are you going to use Bmw, VW, or other management system ?... I'm curious and would like to learn from you experience.
Thanks
Greg
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
The choice of ECU will have to consider compatibility to drive the CBEA's piezo injectors, unless the latter are changed to solenoid.
vwmikel
Vendor , w/Business number
The only ECU that I know of that isn't EDC17 that will drive piezo injectors is from a BMW. But, that immobilizer presents issues.
TDIsyncro
Veteran Member
Hi Greg. I appreciate your interest in the project. If you are working on a CBEA project, you are well ahead of the curve of others in this regard. I would like to help you but things are a bit fresh for us right now. We have invested a lot of time and research into ECU and fuel system and at this point we will not be giving out specific information in that regard. It will be up to VWMike and Johan how they want to deal with this information after this project has reached its goals. The BMW EDC16 is a good option. Good luck in sorting yours out.Syncrogreg said: