EPA moving to ban emissions modifications on certified vehicles, even for off-road

sriracha

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I've always wondered how/why offroad use should get a pass on emissions.
People rolling coal and auto racing with straight pipes. Kinda crazy that daily drivers have to meet tight regulations while the 4x4 offroad vehicles and race cars are dumping fuel like crazy, probably at 5 mpg. It's part of our culture, who can go the fastest or go the biggest, with no concern for resources in the process.

I would rather see industries like manufacturing or airlines face stricter regulations than put it on the people.

My biggest question is how will this affect tuners like Malone, Kerma and APR and how will affect us TDI owners, who might want a tune after the fix?
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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I've always wondered how/why offroad use should get a pass on emissions.
People rolling coal and auto racing with straight pipes. Kinda crazy that daily drivers have to meet tight regulations while the 4x4 offroad vehicles and race cars are dumping fuel like crazy, probably at 5 mpg. It's part of our culture, who can go the fastest or go the biggest, with no concern for resources in the process.

I would rather see industries like manufacturing or airlines face stricter regulations than put it on the people.

My biggest question is how will this affect tuners like Malone, Kerma and APR and how will affect us TDI owners, who might want a tune after the fix?
In terms of environmental impact.... aviation has come a LONG way. i.e. Youtube search B-52 takeoff (below). Talk about rolling coal, lol. Back in the day...this way the norm.;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InR_HLB46T8
 

GoFaster

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I've always wondered how/why offroad use should get a pass on emissions.
Do the math.

Figure out the total fuel used by all the race cars in the Daytona 500. Then figure out the total fuel used by all of the spectators getting there and back. The actual environmental impact of the race cars themselves is a drop in the bucket.

Even at a regional (local) level ... My van uses more fuel getting my race bike to the track and back, than the race bike uses all weekend, by a fairly substantial margin.

"But why should it get a pass on emissions" ... At least in the field that I'm in ... Safety. A red-hot catalytic converter is a fire hazard. The exhaust system is hot enough without having a catalytic converter add to it.

In any case, the engine is operating under load conditions where the catalytic converter is not effective anyhow. At full load, all high performance gasoline engines have to run rich of stoichiometric to avoid meltdown. In those conditions, the catalyst is only going to deal with a fraction of what is coming out of the engine anyhow.

People rolling coal and auto racing with straight pipes. Kinda crazy that daily drivers have to meet tight regulations while the 4x4 offroad vehicles and race cars are dumping fuel like crazy, probably at 5 mpg. It's part of our culture, who can go the fastest or go the biggest, with no concern for resources in the process.

I would rather see industries like manufacturing or airlines face stricter regulations than put it on the people.

My biggest question is how will this affect tuners like Malone, Kerma and APR and how will affect us TDI owners, who might want a tune after the fix?
I'm not in favor of the rolling-coal crowd, either. BUT.

Without the business and money that people buying performance goodies contribute to the system, the manufacturers of those performance goodies would largely be unsustainable if they had to rely on selling to racers only.

What's really needed here is for the EPA to get out of trying to regulate racing vehicles but also implement an easier and more cost effective way for aftermarket parts manufacturers to get their products approved.

You CAN chip-tune an ECU without affecting the part of the map that affects emissions. You CAN install a high-flow catalytic converter that will be sufficiently effective for a road vehicle. You CAN retain the crankcase breather system even if you install a catch can.

You can not make a road-legal emissions bypass system, though ...

P.S. I have 5 motorcycles. None of them are stock. They've all been tuned. They all still have whatever emissions equipment they came with. That ranges from nothing (model year 1989, carbureted, no catalyst) to closed-loop EFI with oxygen sensor and three-way catalyst (model year 2015). The stock muffler is gone on the latter one and replaced with an aftermarket one, though, because the stock muffler weighed 17 pounds ...
 

romad

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In what way? The first thing that came to mind is bribes, since I'm told that's pretty common in rural Texas counties, but I'm sure that's not what you meant.
Bribes only work with honest politicians. :D
 

romad

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I wonder if future NASCAR races will include stock Ford Fiestas, Dodge Darts, and Chevy Sonics, given EPA's enforcement. That would make for an interesting race. Or make it like watching a game of golf.
If so, it'll be going back to its roots of "race on Sunday sell on Monday".
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
If so, it'll be going back to its roots of "race on Sunday sell on Monday".
Yeah, that would be neat. NASCAR has just sort of become the redneck version of World Cup Soccer. They made this huge deal about finally moving to EFI and unleaded gas a couple years back. Still silly as they are still using ancient pushrod V8s that need to have restrictors put on them. Why not instead make them use 4 valve 3 liter V6s instead? They can make the cars go just as fast, and maybe actually learn something that could be used in production cars once again. Since most every manufacturer has a modern DOHC V6 of some sort (save for Subaru, but who really cares about them anyways... they are under Toyota's stewardship now).
 

romad

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Good luck getting away with that excuse in CA.
Actually, I do. My Jetta was never certified to meet CA emissions, only Federal emissions. However it is legally registered here and when smogged only has to meet the Federal limits. HOWEVER, OBD II vehicles are no longer smogged to meet emissions levels but are now smogged to bring in revenue. No test of actual emissions are done (other than smoke), but rather the following:

1. Visual look to see if emissions devices are installed
2. Visual look to see if if the check engine light only comes on for a couple of seconds at startup.
3. Visual look using a computer to see that all readiness indicators are set.
4. Visual look to see if smoke dissipates in the required time and distance.

Also states cannot enforce vehicle equipment laws on out of state registered vehicles due to the Interstate Commerce Clause (Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution). It was this clause that was the basis for overturning the "emissions tax" on non-CARB emissions vehicles registered in California.
 

bhtooefr

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And Subaru's still got the EZ36D that could be destroked to make a race 3.0 flat 6.
 

romad

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In terms of environmental impact.... aviation has come a LONG way. i.e. Youtube search B-52 takeoff (below). Talk about rolling coal, lol. Back in the day...this way the norm.;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InR_HLB46T8
A lot of that was due to the water injection the Pratt & Whitney J57 turbojets required. I don't think the remaining H-models of the B-52 with their P&W TF33 turbofans smoke much. There have been periodic proposals to re-engine the B-52, most recently with 4 P&W 1135 geared turbofans.
 

Cool Breeze

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Nothing new here. The law has never been different. The EPA is just providing clarification (ie. putting people on notice).
 

roflwaffle

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Permanent de-registration of a VIN (so that emissions modifications can be subsequently done) isn't a good solution. Plenty of vehicles at grassroots-level motorsports are capable of being put back to being road-legal, and lots of participants rely on the proceeds of selling last year's race bike to help fund buying next year's. Also, some racing - notably, rally, and desert racing - requires using the race vehicle to drive on the road between stages, and that means it has to be registered, licensed, and insured (which is a huge problem area upon itself, but outside the scope of this discussion).

In any case, it doesn't help. If someone is bent upon installing non-road-legal emissions modifications and using it on the road, they're going to do it. Look around this forum for evidence!
I doubt it'll be that stringent. From what I've read, CA has what the EPA is proposing, and I can register my car as PNO, pull the emissions equipment/drop in whatever else, use it for competition, decide I want to drive it again, put all the emissions stuff back, go get it smogged, and drive it on public roads till the wheels fall off. Engine swaps are fine too, you just have to go with a complete drivetrain/emissions system that's the same year or newer and get it inspected by a state ref.

Actually, I do. My Jetta was never certified to meet CA emissions, only Federal emissions. However it is legally registered here and when smogged only has to meet the Federal limits. HOWEVER, OBD II vehicles are no longer smogged to meet emissions levels but are now smogged to bring in revenue. No test of actual emissions are done (other than smoke), but rather the following:

1. Visual look to see if emissions devices are installed
2. Visual look to see if if the check engine light only comes on for a couple of seconds at startup.
3. Visual look using a computer to see that all readiness indicators are set.
4. Visual look to see if smoke dissipates in the required time and distance.

Also states cannot enforce vehicle equipment laws on out of state registered vehicles due to the Interstate Commerce Clause (Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution). It was this clause that was the basis for overturning the "emissions tax" on non-CARB emissions vehicles registered in California.
I think it has to do with the accuracy and design of OBDII emissions systems. Those vehicles aren't dyno tested because error codes persist and the system can throw a code pretty much instantaneously compared to an OBDI or earlier system. On the flip side, an OBDI car is far more likely to fail smog even if there aren't any codes present, and can also pass a dyno test with a malfunctioning component if the system is reset before the test (I know this from personal experience :D).
 
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bubbagumpshrimp

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A lot of that was due to the water injection the Pratt & Whitney J57 turbojets required. I don't think the remaining H-models of the B-52 with their P&W TF33 turbofans smoke much. There have been periodic proposals to re-engine the B-52, most recently with 4 P&W 1135 geared turbofans.
They're definitely not as bad as they used to be, but they're still pretty bad (compared to modern commercial engines). I remember the turbofan proposal (I read about one of them a few years ago). I bet that would have been a heck of an improvement, efficiency wise.
 

romad

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They're definitely not as bad as they used to be, but they're still pretty bad (compared to modern commercial engines). I remember the turbofan proposal (I read about one of them a few years ago). I bet that would have been a heck of an improvement, efficiency wise.
Actually the B-52H TF33 engines are turbofans also. What I understand is those proposed 1135 engines are called "geared turbofans"; I'll have to see exactly what that means. Meanwhile, the active inventory is down to about 75 airframes, with projected in-use until 2030. There is still talk of a re-engine project; the problem is cost-effectiveness.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Actually the B-52H TF33 engines are turbofans also. What I understand is those proposed 1135 engines are called "geared turbofans"; I'll have to see exactly what that means. Meanwhile, the active inventory is down to about 75 airframes, with projected in-use until 2030. There is still talk of a re-engine project; the problem is cost-effectiveness.
Yup. That and the Air Force would prefer to spend their money on pointy nosed stuff (I.e. F-22 and F-35).
 

piotrsko

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People who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. 50 years ago you could only use a bell approved telephone.

Everyone got so over that
 
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tadawson

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People who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. 50 years ago you could only use a bell approved telephone.

Everyone got so over that
Yup, and the quality of the equipment has been in decline ever since!

Way to go?
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Yup, and the quality of the equipment has been in decline ever since!

Way to go?
:rolleyes: 50 years ago...the majority of people in the U.S. had "party lines" for phone lines. Look that one up and tell me in what crack smoking reality that is a step up from where we are at the moment.

The "quality" of consumer goods in the U.S. at the moment is a direct result of consumer demand. People want cheap $h1t. They say that they want quality, but they don't want to pay for it. If everyone demanded quality and voted with their $$$$...that's what companies would deliver.
 

S2000_guy

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...
The "quality" of consumer goods in the U.S. at the moment is a direct result of consumer demand. People want cheap $h1t. They say that they want quality, but they don't want to pay for it. If everyone demanded quality and voted with their $$$$...that's what companies would deliver.
Exactly.
 
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