TDI Bluemotion achieves 80 mpg

MarcusW

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Paris Motor Show: 65 mpg Golf BlueMotion and Panamera Sport Turismo eHybrid

Lots of good things in Paris apparently.

Report from Paris: The Mondial de l’Automobile 2012


by Jonathan Spira
The Paris Motor Show, or Mondial de l’Automobile, was the world’s first auto show and remains one of the most important shows in the industry. Many manufacturers use the Paris show to debut their wildest concept cars and latest production models. 2012 has brought no changes to this tradition, and dozens of automakers from around the world took the opportunity to show off their new cars. What has changed, however, …
 

John Kuhn

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Golf 7 Bluemotion at Paris Auto Show

Concept car supposedly very close to the production version. Efficiency improvements boost FE rating to 73mpg, using a new 1.6 TDI, (with even more power and torque than my '01 TDI, which was already sufficient). Of course, not much chance of us getting it in the USA, unfortunately...

http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-news/volkswagen-golf-bluemotion-concept/
 

bhtooefr

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Long gearing on the 5-speed? Huh. (That's the same family as the good ol' 02A and 02J, as well as the 0A4 used in the Mk5 PDs. (In fact, they can't decide whether to call it an 0A4 or 02S still.))

The normal 1.6 TDI gets some pretty long gearing, but it's partially made up for by the final drive being short:

Final drive: 3.647
Gears: 3.778, 1.944, 1.185, 0.816, 0.625

So, the BlueMotion could easily be a "rummage in the parts bin, find a 3.158 set from a 02A CTN, and have stupid long gearing" job. And, having better aero, and FAR better bottom-end torque, the Mk7 can handle taller gearing on the highway (although you'll need to downshift more on hills).

Compared to 02J DQY/EGR/EBJ, the overall gears are:

7.613% shorter in 1st, 1.243% taller in 2nd, 6.649% taller in 3rd, 10.57% taller in 4th, 12.40% taller in 5th
 
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bhtooefr

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It isn't anything that would be called a hybrid by anyone but GM.

The system is one that uses the alternator less during normal driving, and more during braking. That's all it is.
 

booksgamesvideos

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The system is one that uses the alternator less during normal driving, and more during braking. That's all it is.
Okay I guess that explains what VW means by "battery regen" during braking. BTW this Golf would probably get 55MPG on the EPA highway test (based upon Prius getting ~65mpg in Europe but only 50 from the EPA).
 

chewy

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Okay I guess that explains what VW means by "battery regen" during braking. BTW this Golf would probably get 55MPG on the EPA highway test (based upon Prius getting ~65mpg in Europe but only 50 from the EPA).
Theoretically it should as the European test rates it at 30%+ better fuel economy than even the new 2.0 TDI. But the EPA test almost works in reverse as you have fewer horsepower. The latest 2.5 liter mid size sedans are rated at 36-38 mpg highway* but 1.8-2.0 liter compacts are only rated at 40ish highway. Even smaller engines with around 100 hp fall even below the 2.4-2.5 liter engine with more hp due to gearing.

*Of course the latest Motor Trend comparison shows that the latest mid size sedans rated at 35+ do only fractionally better than VW's low tech (no DI/variable timing) and (VW fanboy unapproved) 2.5 I5 that is only rated @ 31 highway.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1212_2012_2013_midsize_sedan_comparison/?ti=v2

I bet the TDI Passat would have done much better even with journalist leadfoots even if it's only rated 2 mpg better than some of the latest gas powered competitors.
 
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bhtooefr

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Actually, the 2.5 does have one cam phaser nowadays.

But, I'm surprised the gasser enthusiasts DON'T like that engine - with an exhaust system, it sounds great, and it has a fair amount of potential. (Problem is, the stock bottom end is weaker than even the 2.sl0, but some aftermarket rods and pistons fixes that. And the 2.5TFSI based on it is nearly TDI strong.)
 

dubStrom

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hybrid=OK Turbo Diesel= ??

I know that the cost of production is the main barrier for import, but does anyone actually believe that these cars would not sell in the US right now?

I would argue that evena 1.4L TDI Polo with the ultra-econo gear would do well, if not better (less tech). A relatively simple small TDI that gets 45mpg easily, and 50 mph without trying very hard would sell FAST.

And think of the awards and impression they would make on the American public. If Honda could make a 56 mpg Honda CRX in 1987-88, Volkswagen can produce a 50mpg TDI that meets EPA spec in 2013, and sell lots!! Ya think!!? Just look at all the tiny cars selling well here now (and not getting even 35mpg).
 

bhtooefr

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The trick is, the small engines have to work harder, increasing NOx emissions. And, it also means that the cost is an issue.

A TDI will automatically cost about $3000-5000 more than a gasser.

VW would probably have to sell a 1.6 gasser base Polo for $15k to make money on it, and they can't make a business case for that when $12k is the most a base model in that segment can really be, and they'd lose money there.

And, VW doesn't have the image to pull off a premium subcompact (and the Fiat 500's flopped here), so... just think what an $18-20k non-premium subcompact would do. The only company that can get away with that is Toyota, with the Prius c.
 

dubStrom

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The trick is, the small engines have to work harder, increasing NOx emissions. And, it also means that the cost is an issue.
A TDI will automatically cost about $3000-5000 more than a gasser.
VW would probably have to sell a 1.6 gasser base Polo for $15k to make money on it, and they can't make a business case for that when $12k is the most a base model in that segment can really be, and they'd lose money there.
And, VW doesn't have the image to pull off a premium subcompact (and the Fiat 500's flopped here), so... just think what an $18-20k non-premium subcompact would do. The only company that can get away with that is Toyota, with the Prius c.
That's the calculation, but I am not sure I agree. Polo is lighter, and 1.4 or 1.6 liter engine could be tune less aggressive enough to not only pass the NOx standard, but with more torque than comparable gassers.

They sell lots in Europe, and it is the same engine(s). Why would they cost more to sell them here? Of course, and North American assembly plant (like the one in Puebla!) could do it. JSW is much heavier than a Polo, and it does not need urea. I am sure it could be done without urea, and if VW wants to advance in sales, they simply have to enter the economy side in a big way. Margins might be small, but it would expand lots, enhance service income, and parts income.

So how can they offer Golf, Polo, Bug, Up, and Scirroco and so many other cars in Europe and not lose money? The Up would compete against stuff like the weird little boxes from Scion, Kia, Nissan. But I still think VW should roll out Polo (not Up). More conventional gas savers do well here, and right now a few extra thousand to get 50mpg without plugging in or hybridizing would make it.
 
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bhtooefr

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Keep in mind that the Polo is a Volkswagen, and a Volkswagen is a premium car in Europe.

And, the European market is fine with buying premium Volkswagens. So, they can sell the car for that much.

The US market isn't, the US market wants Volkswagen-badged Skodas.

Also, weight doesn't make a difference on the highway - that's all aerodynamics, and the Polo isn't as long (which tends to increase drag coefficient). It is narrower, though, which reduces frontal area, and I don't believe it's any taller.

Finally, the US market has much, MUCH stricter emissions standards. Right now, if you buy a Mk7 Golf TDI, the car that you get will have a simpler EGR system than even a US-spec TDI, a cat, and a DPF. No NOx trap, no urea system.
 
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waspie

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The trick is, the small engines have to work harder, increasing NOx emissions. And, it also means that the cost is an issue.
A TDI will automatically cost about $3000-5000 more than a gasser.
VW would probably have to sell a 1.6 gasser base Polo for $15k to make money on it, and they can't make a business case for that when $12k is the most a base model in that segment can really be, and they'd lose money there.
And, VW doesn't have the image to pull off a premium subcompact (and the Fiat 500's flopped here), so... just think what an $18-20k non-premium subcompact would do. The only company that can get away with that is Toyota, with the Prius c.
although it didn't meet initial expectations I don't know if I'd call the 500 a flop now:
http://www.modernmopars.com/img/fiat0811-0812.png
it's competing rather well with some much cheaper models:
http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2012/09/august-sales-show-fiat-a-player-in-small-car-segment
 

WutGas?

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And think of the awards and impression they would make on the American public. If Honda could make a 56 mpg Honda CRX in 1987-88, Volkswagen can produce a 50mpg TDI that meets EPA spec in 2013, and sell lots!! Ya think!!? Just look at all the tiny cars selling well here now (and not getting even 35mpg).
Tests are quite different now compared to when the CRX was supposedly able to get 50mpg. Those things rarely got over 35mpg in real world driving.

On a different note, did you ever drive a CRX manual? Those had some loooooooooooooooooooooooooongggg gears.
 

dubStrom

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Tests are quite different now compared to when the CRX was supposedly able to get 50mpg. Those things rarely got over 35mpg in real world driving.
On a different note, did you ever drive a CRX manual? Those had some loooooooooooooooooooooooooongggg gears.
YES I did, and NOT TRUE. I owned a 1988 CRX HF. I bought it brand spanking new for get this... $8888 No kidding. I bought it in Albuquerque at Garcia Honda, as I recall, in 1988! NICE deal.

I got 50 easily. I got 54 often, but I did that driving on the highway. It routinely got me 45mpg average before I put some sticky BF Goodrich radial TA tires with the soft compound on it. OOh. That was fun.YES! Then it wouldn't do better than 45mpg.
 
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TomJD

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Keep in mind that the Polo is a Volkswagen, and a Volkswagen is a premium car in Europe.
Not true. They are more popular here compared to in the states but they are still very much "The People's Car."
 

TomJD

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It is hard to compare to the US market so it might be tough to give you a perfect example. In the USA, Toyotas can cost just as much as entry level BMWs so pricing and the def'n of premium is much different between the two continents. I would say it could be compared to GM from years ago. I don't recall how it was exactly set up but you had more of a hierarchy. IIRC, Olds was above Pontiac, above Chevorlet (correct me on that order but people who were GM loyal would move up and down that hierarchical ladder). Kind of the same thing here. I see hundreds of Polos and Lupos each week along side other micro inexpensive cars. But a Golf is a much better car than a Skoda and a SEAT (note: I have never been in either)...however I don't see that many of either brand around Rome. Mostly Fiats, VWs, Minis, Smart Cars, Fords (the Ka and Fiesta) and Renaults .

The Golf is still one of the best selling cars here in Europe so I would still like to say its the People's Car...although I am biased :D
 
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bhtooefr

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Although through the 90s and early 2000s, a Pontiac and a Chevrolet were both cheap, and the difference was that the Pontiac had a bit firmer suspension, different styling, and orange instrument lighting instead of green.

My understanding of the parallels here...

VW == Buick but not aimed at just old people
Skoda == Chevrolet
SEAT == Pontiac

Not sure where that puts Audi, though, as GM didn't really have a sporty premium brand during that time - their premium brands were Buick and above that Cadillac, both aimed at old people.
 

RNDDUDE

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I also had a 1985 CRX 1.3L manual, which was my LA commuter car. Sold it with 330,000 miles on the odo, still running, original clutch was slipping though. That thing gave me 45-48 mpg day in, day out, no matter how hard I drove it. Maintenance consisted of tires and brakes, cam belt every 100k, along with a head removal and decarbonization. It DID have an appetite for head gaskets. Interesting thing about those early CCCV motors, everything in the engine compartment was vacume controlled, it was a maize of vacume lines everywhere, and line leaks became common when the rubber got old. A spray bottle of soapy water was a necessity in my took kit.
 

WutGas?

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YES I did, and NOT TRUE. I owned a 1988 CRX HF. I bought it brand spanking new for get this... $8888 No kidding. I bought it in Albuquerque at Garcia Honda, as I recall, in 1988! NICE deal.

I got 50 easily. I got 54 often, but I did that driving on the highway. It routinely got me 45mpg average before I put some sticky BF Goodrich radial TA tires with the soft compound on it. OOh. That was fun.YES! Then it wouldn't do better than 45mpg.
I had the same car for about 6 months (till I smashed it into the back end of someone)! I will admit that I was quite young at that time and didn't pay all that much attention to gas mileage, but I know I never got anywhere near those numbers.

Looking at Fuelly, there aren't all that many on there, but they seem to average 35ish.

I did love that car though.
 

bhtooefr

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Keep in mind that a lot of those cars now are in crap condition.

Rust holes don't help aerodynamics.
 

kjclow

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It is hard to compare to the US market so it might be tough to give you a perfect example. In the USA, Toyotas can cost just as much as entry level BMWs so pricing and the def'n of premium is much different between the two continents. I would say it could be compared to GM from years ago. I don't recall how it was exactly set up but you had more of a hierarchy. IIRC, Olds was above Pontiac, above Chevorlet (correct me on that order but people who were GM loyal would move up and down that hierarchical ladder). Kind of the same thing here. I see hundreds of Polos and Lupos each week along side other micro inexpensive cars. But a Golf is a much better car than a Skoda and a SEAT (note: I have never been in either)...however I don't see that many of either brand around Rome. Mostly Fiats, VWs, Minis, Smart Cars, Fords (the Ka and Fiesta) and Renaults .

The Golf is still one of the best selling cars here in Europe so I would still like to say its the People's Car...although I am biased :D
I think it was: chevy - pontiac - olds - buick - caddilac
I was more of a mopar man back then and knew that was dodge - plymouth - chrysler

You could load a dodge up to be more expensive than the similar plymouth model and the plymouth still had a few more goodies that you couldn't get on the dodge.
 
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