2015 SportWagen TDI MT Only

turbobrick240 · Apr 19, 2017

Miss_Athanatos said:
The source of the equation is Wiley's Thermodynamics book by Van Wylen. It's used by engineers in sizing engine components for a specifically defined service life based on engine temperatures and pressures. NOx increase or decrease is a secondary concern.

The concern is not simply NOx formation, but the whole package: reliability, durability, performance, driveability, fuel efficiency, etc. over the life of the vehicle. Previous owners have reported consistent 300,000+ miles driven on these TDIs with little issue pre-dieselgate. Is that what "fixed" TDI owners can expect?

-- Nicole

The Ideal gas law is still PV=nRT, or alternatively PV/nRT=1. Those other equations are just that- other equations. But you are absolutely right that increases in power output have an adverse effect on longevity. So the moderately increased output from the fix may turn a 500k mile engine into a 475k mile engine. Generally the rest of the car is shot long before the engine.

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 22, 2017

Anybody considering keeping his/her SportWagen as-is? Or doing a buyback?

Anybody concerned about what is being related about the software "fix" in the UK?

DanB36 · Apr 22, 2017

Miss_Athanatos said:
Anybody concerned about what is being related about the software "fix" in the UK?

Not really--it's a different engine and a different fix. Granted, I don't have a GSW, but I do have an A3 that I'm leaning toward keeping and having the fix done. But I'll still probably wait until Phase 2 is in the wild so I can have an idea of what effects it has before I commit to that.

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 22, 2017

DanB36 said:
Not really--it's a different engine and a different fix. Granted, I don't have a GSW, but I do have an A3 that I'm leaning toward keeping and having the fix done. But I'll still probably wait until Phase 2 is in the wild so I can have an idea of what effects it has before I commit to that.

I think it's the same block, same crank, same arrangement, etc., just different displacement on the 1.6L, but 2.0L owners in the UK are making the same complaints as well.

The problem that I don't see resolved at this point is reliability and durability of components. Waiting until Phase 2 is in the wild is reasonable, I just don't see how that's going to give a far reaching picture of 150K down the road.

turbobrick240 · Apr 22, 2017

Don't worry so much. The general consensus so far is that the N. America fix is an all around improvement.

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 22, 2017

turbobrick240 said:
Don't worry so much. The general consensus so far is that the N. America fix is an all around improvement.

Rational concern is not the same as worry. Besides that, having been integral myself in a manufacturer's major road vehicle recall(s), an individual consumer has no way to know what generation of Phase I "fix" the dealers are plugging into the cars at this point. Dealers are under no obligation to divulge that information, and may not even know it themselves. What was causing excessive fan noise (indicating increased regenerations) in some N.A. vehicles is most likely a previous generation software for Phase I, versus what is now getting rid of turbo lag and increasing general performance.

The consensus is not always right, and is often deceived. Free energy is the best example of that. A large consensus buys into free energy when it's a myth.

-- Nicole

Diesl · Apr 23, 2017

Miss_Athanatos said:
Anybody considering keeping his/her SportWagen as-is? Or doing a buyback?
Anybody concerned about what is being related about the software "fix" in the UK?

That gas law mentioned above will soon be repealed. We will have so much power, we won't know what to do with all that power!

Seriously though, any increase in power will drive temperature up, all else being equal (I.e. no water injection, better intercooling etc.).
m/M/n/k, for this discussion it doesn't matter what you call the proportionality constant in the ideal gas law. Important is that pressure -which makes torque, which makes horsepower- is proportional to temperature.

Regarding question 1: at current pricing levels ($25k+ with taxes for a 2015 GSW S model), I'm considering keeping my 2012 JSW TDI unmodified.

Question 2: I am worried about the exhaust system longevity with more frequent (and/or longer) regenerations of the lean NOx trap in the 2009-2014 TDIs. I'm not so worried about the 2015 SCR being run harder, given the extended warranty to 162k miles. Running the SCR doesn't put more thermal cycles on the rest of the exhaust system, like the LNT does. If the SCR fails after the warranty, you could either get used to driving with the check engine light on (and regular OBD checks for other error conditions), or get a 3rd party software fix aka tune.

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 23, 2017

Diesl said:
That gas law mentioned above will soon be repealed. We will have so much power, we won't know what to do with all that power!

Seriously though, any increase in power will drive temperature up, all else being equal (I.e. no water injection, better intercooling etc.).
m/M/n/k, for this discussion it doesn't matter what you call the proportionality constant in the ideal gas law. Important is that pressure -which makes torque, which makes horsepower- is proportional to temperature.

Regarding question 1: at current pricing levels ($25k+ with taxes for a 2015 GSW S model), I'm considering keeping my 2012 JSW TDI unmodified.

Question 2: I am worried about the exhaust system longevity with more frequent (and/or longer) regenerations of the lean NOx trap in the 2009-2014 TDIs. I'm not so worried about the 2015 SCR being run harder, given the extended warranty to 162k miles. Running the SCR doesn't put more thermal cycles on the rest of the exhaust system, like the LNT does. If the SCR fails after the warranty, you could either get used to driving with the check engine light on (and regular OBD checks for other error conditions), or get a 3rd party software fix aka tune.

Thank you for your reasoned response. I am in agreement with you.

-- Nicole

flargabarg · Apr 24, 2017

The person I know with 490k on their 2009 has had to do regular cash infusions to keep it running. I would expect the fixed vehicles to be similar or better, since Volkswagen now has to stand behind the emissions components with a warranty that is twice as long as before. Money talks, and they have proven they are motivated.

2015vwgolfdiesel · Apr 24, 2017

flargabarg said:
The person I know with 490k on their 2009 has had to do regular cash infusions to keep it running.

I would expect the fixed vehicles to be similar or better, since Volkswagen now has to stand behind the emissions components

with a warranty that is twice as long as before. Money talks, and they have proven they are motivated.

I'm counting on that, as well as the resale value being transferable to new owners

_______________

sdroberts97 · Apr 28, 2017

In response to the original post:

- I had the phase 1 fix completed in mid-February on my 2015 GSW 6M. Since then I have driven about 3,000 miles (total miles 31K)

- yes, I have calculated fuel efficiency and there appears to be no meaningful change. Since the fix I have averaged 43.7mpg. Many may find this to be low, but this includes about 500 miles of towing a 650 lb boat and trailer. Taking into account only fill-ups when no towing occurred, my average is 47.8mpg of mostly highway driving.

- I have noticed no change in driving performance, frequency of regen cycles, or noises. I don't have enough miles yet to know if AdBlue consumption has changed much yet.

- HOWEVER.... I posted in the GSW page last night that I just started having an issue with a very powerful ammonia smell in the exhaust while the car was idling at a stop sign. Engine was at operating temp and was going through a regen cycle, AC was off and windows were down. I am sure the smell is AdBlue and am concerned that something is going on with the AdBlue injector causing it to dose too much while at idle. There is no evidence of a leak at the injector (no crystalization). Took it to the dealer this morning and they said everything is fine. Not sure where to go with this issue yet or if it is associated with the phase 1 update.

skromfols · Apr 28, 2017

I have a 2014 JSW 6 sp manual and am patiently (or not so patiently) waiting for VW to start modifying 2014's in Kalifornia. I keep checking with VW and they keep telling me that they aren't ready yet to start modifying the 2014's. I want to complete th modifications so that I can put my Malone tune back on my SJW. The Malone tune added 30 RWHP to the car, but I lost it when VW did some modification last year. I tried to avoid the modification, but couldn't renew my registration without the required VW change (which had nothing to do with this emissions problem).
I recently received a message from Malone that they are working on an improved turbo for our engines that improves the HP and torque significantly, so I can hardly wait to see how that works out. I tow my Polaris ACE over the Sierra Nevada mountains, so additional power is always appreciated.
Stan

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 28, 2017

sdroberts97 said:
In response to the original post:

- I had the phase 1 fix completed in mid-February on my 2015 GSW 6M. Since then I have driven about 3,000 miles (total miles 31K)

- yes, I have calculated fuel efficiency and there appears to be no meaningful change. Since the fix I have averaged 43.7mpg. Many may find this to be low, but this includes about 500 miles of towing a 650 lb boat and trailer. Taking into account only fill-ups when no towing occurred, my average is 47.8mpg of mostly highway driving.

- I have noticed no change in driving performance, frequency of regen cycles, or noises. I don't have enough miles yet to know if AdBlue consumption has changed much yet.

- HOWEVER.... I posted in the GSW page last night that I just started having an issue with a very powerful ammonia smell in the exhaust while the car was idling at a stop sign. Engine was at operating temp and was going through a regen cycle, AC was off and windows were down. I am sure the smell is AdBlue and am concerned that something is going on with the AdBlue injector causing it to dose too much while at idle. There is no evidence of a leak at the injector (no crystalization). Took it to the dealer this morning and they said everything is fine. Not sure where to go with this issue yet or if it is associated with the phase 1 update.

Good information. Thanks for the response.

I am sure you're right identifying the ammonia smell. However, to my knowledge, the SCR isn't supposed to be dosing during a regen. Maybe my knowledge on that is dated, but a strong ammonia smell during regen kinda leads one to believe that buildup of DEF was being burnt off.

-- Nicole

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 28, 2017

skromfols said:
I have a 2014 JSW 6 sp manual and am patiently (or not so patiently) waiting for VW to start modifying 2014's in Kalifornia. I keep checking with VW and they keep telling me that they aren't ready yet to start modifying the 2014's. I want to complete th modifications so that I can put my Malone tune back on my SJW. The Malone tune added 30 RWHP to the car, but I lost it when VW did some modification last year. I tried to avoid the modification, but couldn't renew my registration without the required VW change (which had nothing to do with this emissions problem).
I recently received a message from Malone that they are working on an improved turbo for our engines that improves the HP and torque significantly, so I can hardly wait to see how that works out. I tow my Polaris ACE over the Sierra Nevada mountains, so additional power is always appreciated.
Stan

Thanks for the response. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what is motivating you to get the "fix" when it comes available for the 2014s?

-- Nicole

skromfols · Apr 29, 2017

I don't have any choice. There is no way that I'll give up this vehicle, and in Kalifornia they won't renew my registration until I meet all of their envirnomental requirements. Since I live in a rural county where you don't have to be smogged except when a vehicle is purchased or sold, I can let them "fix" my vehicle, then do what's necessary to make it run right again (I.e., put my Malone tune back on it).

For anyone who's had their vehicle fixed, where do they put the uretha tank ?

adjat84th · Apr 29, 2017

skromfols said:
I don't have any choice. There is no way that I'll give up this vehicle, and in Kalifornia they won't renew my registration until I meet all of their envirnomental requirements. Since I live in a rural county where you don't have to be smogged except when a vehicle is purchased or sold, I can let them "fix" my vehicle, then do what's necessary to make it run right again (I.e., put my Malone tune back on it).

For anyone who's had their vehicle fixed, where do they put the uretha tank ?

The DEF tank already exists from the factory in the cars that have approved fixes. I highly doubt they'll be adding DEF to '09-'14 Golf, Jetta(wagens), or Beetles as the cost would be even higher.

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skromfols · Apr 29, 2017

I hope that you're right, but I've been told, and have read on the internet that VW has proposed a two part fix (at least in Kalifornia) part one has to do with altering the engine control module. The second is adding DEF. This may not be the approved fix in every state, but I've been told that it's the fix for Kalifornia (remember, we're special)

turbobrick240 · Apr 29, 2017

The only approved fix so far is for 2015 MY tdi's with the EA288 engines. The "adding DEF" part entails increasing the DEF dosing rate that is already being used. The gen1 cars will almost certainly not be getting SCR added in any approved fix.

Scratchy101 · Apr 29, 2017

cane929 said:
You make very important points Miss_Athanatos:
From VW:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Emissions Modification Phase 2 :
(available beginning in early 2018 )
The second part of the emissions modification will involve outfitting your
car with new emission control parts to ensure system reliability and
durability over time. If your car exceeds 40,000 miles (for automatic
transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for manual transmissions) we will install
updated emissions control system hardware - specifically a new Diesel
Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and Selective Catalytic
Reduction Converter - that is needed to maintain emissions
performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle. As
part of the Phase 2 modification, we will also install a second NOx
sensor and corresponding software to improve the performance of the
OBD system. The Phase 2 updates are expected to have no further
impact on overall vehicle reliability, durability, fuel economy, engine
sound, performance, or drivability.
You will receive a notice when Phase 2 of the emissions modification is
available for your vehicle. You should expect to receive this notice
before June 30, 2019. If your vehicle has accumulated fewer than
40,000 miles (for automatic transmissions) or 70,000 miles (for
manual transmissions) at the time of your Phase 2 update, your car will
need to have the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst replaced a second time,
before it reaches 150,000 miles. We will notify you when it is time to
bring your car in for the second catalyst replacement.
These updates will be made available at no cost to you starting in early
2018. A complimentary loaner vehicle will be available for the duration
of this modification, which is expected to take approximately 9 hours.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So I think they will replace some components for that exact reason your friend is talking about, to extend the life and reliability of the emission parts.

VW lied to us for 6 years. What makes you think they are telling the truth now?
This is unproven technology that they are deploying without the benefit of long term testing. If you believe this, then I have some property to sell you.....

skromfols · Apr 29, 2017

Turbobrick240 (does that indicate that you have a Volvo 240 TDI?), my 2014 does not have DEF, but from what I've read adding DEF will be part of the solution.
Scratchy, I love buying property, so offer me a good deal and I might make you an offer.

turbobrick240 · Apr 29, 2017

skromfols said:
Turbobrick240 (does that indicate that you have a Volvo 240 TDI?), my 2014 does not have DEF, but from what I've read adding DEF will be part of the solution.
Scratchy, I love buying property, so offer me a good deal and I might make you an offer.

I wish. My first car was an '85 244 Ti- and I have had half a dozen 240 series cars. Including a 80 hp 2.4L idi diesel 245 wagon. Great cars, the rust is what kills them up here.

skromfols · Apr 29, 2017

Well, it was just a guess, since I had a 1990 240 for 10 yrs (200,000) miles, and spend many hours on the Volvo chat site (the brickboard https://www.brickboard.com/). I had the 2.0 petrol and when I had it in Germany I found out what the car was really designed for. It was designed to cruise at 90 MPH on the autobahn with just a little bit of throttle left over. It was a great car, especially after I modified the intake and exhaust and upgraded the suspension. Very comfortable cruising at high speed on the autobahn.

flargabarg · Apr 29, 2017

Scratchy101 said:
VW lied to us for 6 years. What makes you think they are telling the truth now?
This is unproven technology that they are deploying without the benefit of long term testing. If you believe this, then I have some property to sell you.....

Because if this stuff doesn't pass extensive independent testing, they get to offer everyone another chance to opt out and sue, or to switch to a buyback. It's in the settlement.

DanB36 · Apr 30, 2017

skromfols said:
I hope that you're right, but I've been told, and have read on the internet that VW has proposed a two part fix (at least in Kalifornia) part one has to do with altering the engine control module. The second is adding DEF.

You've been told wrong, and CA is not special in this regard, for at least three reasons:

1. CARB is the approving authority for the fix for all cars, whether registered in CA or not. The cars were originally certified as 50-state cars, and the fixes will be 50-state fixes.

2. CA (and all the 44 other states getting money out of this settlement) have agreed to not refuse registration to cars that haven't had the fix done.

3. The parameters of the proposed fixes have already been published as part of the settlement documents, and VW isn't adding DEF systems to any cars that don't already have them.

DanB36 · Apr 30, 2017

Scratchy101 said:
This is unproven technology that they are deploying without the benefit of long term testing.

No, there is long-term testing--about 150k miles of it, IIRC. It's all spelled out in the settlement documents.

skromfols · Apr 30, 2017

Dan, I have no idea where you get your information, but it disagrees with the information that I've gotten from the local VW dealer service manager. He told me that adding DEF was part of the approved solution, and my guess is that he should know.

CARB is California Air Resource Board, a California State Agency. One of CARB's responsibilities is to define vehicle emissions standards for the state of CAlifornia. California is the only state permitted to issue emissions standards under the federal Clean Air Act, subject to a waiver from the United States Environmental Protection Agency. Other states may choose to follow CARB or federal standards but may not set their own And if California requirements to resolve this problem are more strict or complex than what is required in other states I don't see why VW would adopt the California standards for all 50 States.

You may have completely solid information that VW dealerships don't have, or the Service Manager may be telling me what he thinks, not what he knows for sure, so I'll just have to wait until VW is finally ready to modify my JSW and see what happens.

turbobrick240 · Apr 30, 2017

Dan has the right info. Either the service manager didn't know what he was talking about, or you misconstrued what he was saying.

skromfols · Apr 30, 2017

Turbo, I was pretty specific in my questions to him and listened carefully to his answer. So where are you guys getting your information on how California cars will be modified ?

turbobrick240 · Apr 30, 2017

It's all laid out in the settlement documents as Dan mentioned a couple of times. Shouldn't be hard to summon with the power of Google. Probably not the most enthralling reading, but check it out if you're curious.

Miss_Athanatos · Apr 30, 2017

DanB36 said:
You've been told wrong, and CA is not special in this regard, for at least three reasons:

1. CARB is the approving authority for the fix for all cars, whether registered in CA or not. The cars were originally certified as 50-state cars, and the fixes will be 50-state fixes.

2. CA (and all the 44 other states getting money out of this settlement) have agreed to not refuse registration to cars that haven't had the fix done.

3. The parameters of the proposed fixes have already been published as part of the settlement documents, and VW isn't adding DEF systems to any cars that don't already have them.

Thank you for posting this.

2015 SportWagen TDI MT Only

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