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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old December 25th, 2000, 16:09   #1
Turbo Steve
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Default 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

FYI Only ....
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Race-Proven Technology Oils

If you don't know a whole lot about these new thinner oils beginning to flood the lubricant market, stay tuned because they really are something else to behold with their "Race-Proven Technology" and etc...! And don't let the zero in the number frighten you off, either. It's not like it's Ric's test score or something.

While crunching a few numbers in my dreams, I remembered the statistical facts surrounding a 1999 4-Ball Wear Test which was conducted at a sizzling 302*F. (note - average oil temp our TDI sees is 180*F. +/-), where a popular 0W-30 oil with a TBN over 11+ and using "Race-Proven Technology," outperformed an outstanding 5W-40 oil by 15%, whose viscosity was 60% thicker than that of the thinner more efficient oil with a better basestock.

The two excellent-performing oils tested at a sizzling hot 302*F. were: 1) AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30, and 2) Mobil's excellent Delvac 1 5W-40 . In the end, the quality of the product is always what counts and not necessarily the viscosity of the oil! Right?

Many thinner oils worth their salt are using "Race-Proven Technology," which easily helps them pass tougher European Standards and those of the Japanize, without the drag loss in RPM's that high viscosity oils have, nor the increase in fuel consumption from thicker oils. These tougher than ever industry standards make the API's patsy-cake play-doe tests look like silly puddy in the hands of a skilled potter.

Furthermore, "Race-Proven Technology" adds more expensive poly-ester and PAO to the oil's basestock and makes a big difference in the end result of how an oil performs when compared to a lesser-quality basestock which is more viscous with a lot of drag.

When it comes to an oil's ability to perform, quality is better than quantity (viscosity) - even though both have a part to perform.

For example, many of you may remember the straight 50 wt., 40 wt., 30 wt., 20 wt., and 10 wt. oils of yesteryear, which were replaced by a 20W-50, then 20W-40, which was replaced by a 15W-40, then 10W-40, then 10W-30, 5W-30, and now 0W-30, 5W-20 is a required Ford spec, and 0W-20 is almost here to stay too.

As the "Race-Proven Technology" pattern continues, with a super high-quality 0W-30 or 5W-30 replaces the thicker oils of the past, this "Race-Proven Technology" will give these professional race car drivers the edge or advantage they need with high temperature protection, shear stability, in a fuel efficient formula with excellent low temperature protection.

Super high-quality thinner oils allow the RPM's of their racing engines to freely rev up and down more easily with less friction or drag on all moving parts, creating more power on less fuel, which is another term for "Race-Proven Technology."

Race-Proven Technology = more power on less fuel, with better engine protection.

In it's very essence, an Xw-30 synthetic oil allows an engine to optimize efficiency and power without the sacrifice in wear protection that comes with other fuel-efficient, low-viscosity oils.

Many Indy 500 Teams use this same AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 "Race-Proven Technology" oil to qualify for, and again to run on Race Day, and have no oil related problems with their engines spinning 13,000 RPM's all day long.

(I wonder how high their turbo's are spinning and why they prefer a thinner oil like Garrett says to protect their turbo's bearings?)

If Indianapolis 500 Teams want outstanding protection from AMSOIL's Series 2000 0W-30 oil that won't be sluggish and slow them down, then it should be OK for TDI'ers to give strong consideration to using this same exact Race-Proven oil in our little high performance diesel engine that could - and - would, if an efficient oil was added to take full advantage of the TDI's capabilities.

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 25, 2000).]
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Old December 25th, 2000, 16:11   #2
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

In addition, if a super high-quality 0W-30 oil is good enough for Garrett and Honeywell who make our VNT-15 turbo, and the Indy Folks who eat and breath this stuff, then it's certainly good enough for Ol' Silver and Turbo Steve!

I recommend you consider the following 0W-30, 5W-30, or 10W-30 oils for our TDI's in order of quality. (Note - These AMSOIL's products meet VW's 505+ spec and have very robust additive packages with TBN's over 11+ that can easily go 10K + drain intervals):

AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30

AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30

AMSOIL 5W-30

AMSOIL 10W-30

Petro-Canada Duron XL 0W-30

Chrevron Delo 400 Arctic Blend 0W-30

Mobil 1 5W-30

Mobil 1 10W-30


Mobil 1 0W-30


TDI Oil Sources

Note - This "Race-Proven Technology" is used in both AMSOIL's Series 3000 5W-30 and Series 2000's 0W-30 basestocks, with the primary difference being in the additive package.

Either oil is probably *overkill* for our TDI engine and will possibly pay for the extra cost with efficiency at the fuel pump (compared to a 5W-40).

For the dollar, Petro-Canada Duron XL 0W-30 with PAO appears to be the best value out there, given the excellent oil analysis results which GeWilli has reported.

I might add that Group III ultra-refined dino-based oils (which perform near enough to synthetics that they are referred to as "synthetic products") with PAO added to the basestock appears to be the wave of the future for now. When using the hydrocracked process like Petro-Canada does, it gives them a big advantage or headstart over their slower competition.

Chevron's Delo 400 Arctic Blend 0W-30 with PAO is also very similar in composition and price to the PC 0W-30.

Castrol Syntec uses similar technology, but has elected to not add any synthetic based chemicals like PAO to their blend - sadley keeping the price of their oil the same. See also Castrol Syntec 101

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 25, 2000).]
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Old December 25th, 2000, 16:31   #3
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

The CAUTION Flag is now out!

Just because I "suggest" you "consider" something, doesn't mean that the oil you are using is not suited for your TDI. It probably is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to use it.

However, lighter-weight super high-quality synthetic oils are the IDEAL product to take a long hard look at, the next time you change your oil.

Please understand that I am not cutting down the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 / Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 / Chevron Delo 400 5W-40 / Redline or AMSOIL 15W-40 in your ride. Rather, I am simply ADDING to the good qualities that your oils may already possess and have only gone or two steps farther with them.

No offense towards anyone or any oil intended.

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 25, 2000).]
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Old December 25th, 2000, 16:58   #4
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Cold-Flow Property Tests of 9 Popular Diesel Oils

* Shell Rotella T 15W-40 to be #9 or dead last with the thickest viscosity @ -4*F.

* Castrol Syntec 5W-40 as #8. See also Castrol Syntec 101

* AMSOIL 15W-40 #7.

* Delvac 1 5W-40 Diesel Oil in the #6 slot.

* AMSOIL 10W-40 in the middle of the pack at #5, with the 3 other judges having it as a tie with Delvac 1 5W-40.

* Series 3000 5W-30 in the #4 hole, with 2 tied with Mobil 1 5W-30.

* Mobil 1 5W-30 as #3.

* Petro-Canada 0W-30 belonged in the #2 spot.

* AMSOIL 0W-30 to be the #1 oil that flowed the best.

In short, I would estimate the flowability differences of these nine oils to be about 300% - 400% between the slowest and fastest. Viscosity or resistence to flow, does make a BIG difference! when starting your cold TDI engine in the morning.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/For...ML/001705.html
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Old December 25th, 2000, 17:28   #5
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Here's a few Oil Analysis Tests from members of the Forum using thinner oils in the 0W-30 to 5W-30 viscosity:

Brian - Oil Analysis at 21,600 miles with "11.9 TBN" and Additive Package Like New on Series 3000 5W-30

Series 3000 5W-30 Baseline Test Analysis

Valois - Series 3000 5W-30 on his Mercedes Benz

Turbo Steve - Series 3000 Oil Analysis Results X 2, plus Baseline Test for Comparison

GeWilli - 10K Analysis of Petro-Canada's 0W-30 Group III Oil
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Old December 25th, 2000, 19:23   #6
Ted_Grozier
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Steve! You are talking to yourself again! No doubt the thinner oils are improving all the time and are dandy for our TDIs. Heck the xW30 meets the VW specs... But just because something is "race proven" doesn't mean it's necessarily good for us - after all most race engines get rebuilt after every 500-mile race! Not my TDI, man.
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Old December 25th, 2000, 19:27   #7
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

"FYI Only ...."
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Old December 25th, 2000, 19:51   #8
SoTxBill
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

as to the 0-30 amsoil vrs the 15-40amsoil,,
it looks to me like the 15-40 won in the fourball wear test(4/thousands less wear, won in the noack volatility test(1.8%less evaporation) and unless its colder than -49f or hotter than +446f, it is a better performing oil. lets see,, less wear, less evaporation under heat,,,less polution due to evap, cleaner engine due to less evaporation, meaning keeps its aditives longer,,and much less expensive..
hmmmm.. better, cheaper,, unless your in the artic, gotta be something wrong with this picture??
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Old December 25th, 2000, 20:19   #9
Driv'n EZ
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Let's see, I have a case of Syntec won at the Fest. A Gallon of Delvac 1 that Mz Sue brought home and two gallons of Amsoil.

My only trouble is that I have more oil than miles to use it right now. Glad to see they're all in the top ten.
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Old December 25th, 2000, 22:59   #10
VeeDubTDI
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Good information. Oils have certainly improved over time. I wonder what the Model T had in it from the factory. Hmmm......

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Old December 26th, 2000, 04:04   #11
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

TexasBill:

You are comparing apples and oranges (two different tests involved) because AMSOIL's 15W-40 4-Ball Wear Test used less-stringent ASTM standards at temps with only 50% of the heat as the 0W-30 was under and the 4-Balls were rotating at only 1,200 RPM's instead of at 1,800 RPM's, as was the case with AMSOIL's Series 2000 0W-30.

If you put the two specs side-by-side, it's much easier to see the difference:

AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 150° C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.373mm (ASTM D-4172)

AMSOIL Diesel & Marine Oil 15W-40 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 75° C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.35mm (ASTM D-4172B)

Furthermore, here's another side-by-side test of two outstanding diesel oils which Forum members use and how well they held up under similar conditions at 302*F.:

AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 150° C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.391mm (ASTM D-4172)

Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 Four Ball Wear Test: 40 kgf, 150° C, 1800 rpm, 1 hr., scar diameter = 0.431mm (ASTM D-4172)

[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited December 26, 2000).]
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Old December 26th, 2000, 04:13   #12
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

The CAUTION Flag is out for a reason!

Just because I "suggest" you "consider" something, doesn't mean that the oil you are using is not suited for your TDI. It probably is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to use it.

However, lighter-weight super high-quality synthetic oils are the IDEAL product to take a long hard look at, the next time you change your oil. That's all! Nothing more and nothing less.

Race Proven Technology simly means you're getting a higher quality synthetic oil with more ester / PAO than other good oils on the market. This results in more power on less fuel, with better engine protection than thicker oils.

Please understand that I am not cutting down the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 / Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 / Chevron Delo 400 5W-40 / Redline or AMSOIL 15W-40 in your ride. Rather, I am simply ADDING to the good existing qualities that your oils may already possess and have only gone or two steps farther with the Race Proven Technology out on the market.

No offense indended towards anyone or whatever oil you are using.
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Old December 26th, 2000, 07:32   #13
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Let me add something else in there too.

MPG and HP

if you care about either of these two factors you will choose an oil with the lowest viscosity that will still provide superior protection.

The biggest difference that people are ignoring is that by using a 0W-30 like the Series 2000 or the Petro Canada Duron XL you are gaining in Cold and Warm horsepower and you are gaining in Cold and Warm Miles per gallon.

Are these two factors you want to give up by sticking with an out moded societal requirement for an oil that is too thick?????

A XW-40 oil is too thick for the TDI unless you are blasting around at 120mph all day. And even then the Series 2000 0W-30 will provide superior protection for the engine.

It will also transfer heat better than the 15W-40 Amsoil stuff which will make the parts last longer and reduce thermal induced wear (differential part expansion and gasket failure).

I fail to see why people think that they need a 15W-40 or even a 10W-40 or a 5W-40 synthetic oil for this motor.

Steve is pumping out a great deal of information - and well most all of it should be listened to.

Thin oils are where it is at. All you need to do is try out the Series 2000 0W-30 in the vehicle to realize the advantages.

The mileage might only be in the +2 or 3 MPG and the HP might only be +5 to +10 but hey that is quite significant. Is it really worth sacrificing that gain for nothing???? Seriously - nothing?

So far there have been lots of people out there pooh pooh-ing light weight oils but to this date there has not been one good argument against a superior blended 0W-30 like the Series 2000! Not one good reason.

texasbill's reasoning doesn't even stand up!
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Old December 26th, 2000, 10:11   #14
Turbo Steve
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

In summary, a less-viscous super high-quality synthetic basestock can outperform a lesser-quality more-viscous basestock if it adds more expensive poly-ester and PAO to make a difference with this Race-Proven Technology.

Quality is what counts! - not just quantity or how thick an oil is.
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Old December 28th, 2000, 21:20   #15
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Default Re: 0W-30, 5W-30, & 10W-30 Oils Combine Efficiency & Wear Protection

Turbo Steve,

Since I am probably responsible for starting this xw-30 vs xw-40 oil debate, I thought I should weigh in here ....

I think if you live in a cold climate and/or do lots of short trip driving, you can definitely benefit from using the thinner, xw-30 oils. Conversely, if you live in a warm climate and/or do lots of high speed driving on the interstate, I don't think the choice of oil viscosity is as critical and you may very well decide that the xw-40 oils will offer better sustained high temp protection - given that we are talking about the same formulation in both cases.

Certainly there have been excellent oil analysis reports posted for the 5w-40 Delvac 1, the 5w-40 Delo 400 synthetic and the Amsoil 15w-40 - particularly from folks living in the mild climates. In the case of TexasBill, for example who lives in south Texas, the Amsoil 15w-40 would work just fine, as would either of the other two oils I mentioned.

The best advice I can give you is to consider the type of driving you do and the climatic conditions you TDI sees most often and choose an oil viscosity based on that criteria. Every oil is a compromise to some degree and you have to decide the best compromise for your vehicle.

I would agree that you will be seeing more 0w-30 and 5w-30 HD diesel oils in the future, but I would not limit TDI choices to just these two viscosity grades ....If I were choosing a Mobil product for example, I would definitely go with Delvac 1 over Mobil 1, simply because the additive package is better suited to the application.

TooSlick www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
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