Why bother to accept a buy back?

luftwaffles said:

Well that certainly works out in your favor. What about the other 49 states?

The post you quoted wasn't aimed at arguing with you and neither is this one. It was a statement aimed at the people who believe everything they read on the internet. There are a large number of lurkers following the Dieselgate forum here, far more than the number of posters in this thread.

People consistently make poor decisions because they aren't aware of or haven't fully considered the potential consequences of their actions (how else do you explain why people still start smoking?). I guarantee someone has read this thread or others and thought "I can save $2000 in taxes" without considering the costs if they're wrong.

Let's assume that you have a friendly and purely benevolent government. All they want is the correct tax payment based on the laws created by your elected representatives. No fees, interest, penalties, court costs, lawyers, etc. How many Americans can come up with that kind of money on short notice? A distressingly small number. Now let's come back to the real world. When was the last time you heard about a governmental entity being friendly and benevolent toward someone who owed tax money? Do you value the time you'll spend dealing with this? Does the stress not "cost" you anything?


* These are all rhetorical questions. "You" is the "general you" and not "dubStrom." If I were living in Missouri and planned to buy a car after the buyback, you can bet I'd take advantage of that. There's nothing wrong with legally minimizing your tax burden.

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Government offices just go by the law. I have never had any problems because I just comply. No big deal. Never been

audited, and I do my own taxes. Both State and Federal taxes. I read the instructions, and I fill out the forms, and I pay the taxes. No big deal.

I've always been treated with remarkable fairness and kindness at motor vehicle. Of couse, one after another, the

people in line before me do not have their proof of paying property taxes for the last two years, or don't have a bill of sale, or whatnot. They go away, and it puts me at the counter sooner.

It is easy to comply, and it is cheap. The fees are cheap compared to the cost of keeping the traffic lights on and the fire trucks ready. What costs more is paying the salaries of the fire department, and the motor vehicle department. They don't get paid that well, but human beings are expensive!

I really don't know what part of government might be your bad experience. Don't forget, that you have firends that work for some part of government. One part that is particularly valuable is the city planners office, which provides enforcement of codes that help you when you buy a house. True, you can't prevent some folks from building crap and selling it when there is corruption, but at least there are standards. Not perfect, but best practices are useful when enforced. So some engineers at Volkswagen lied. Now the entire company is paying through the nose, court ordered.

In fact, the settlement pays buyback amounts way above what people could have gotten on the open market. I already gained $1000, and stand to gain another ~$6000-7000 in the restitution if I keep it. Wow. This is court ordered, and enforced by law.

Pretty cool if you ask me.

negotiated and court ordered are different things.

grawk said:

negotiated and court ordered are different things.

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And your point is...??

What does this have to do with tax policy on the buyback at the State level. Are you saying that States will further penalize the victims of dieselgate with 100% tax because the settlement is negotiated? Full tax on new car purchases using buyback money will hurt the economy in the eyes of every State politician and administrator.

the "victims" of dieselgate aren't being penalized. They're being given money if they'd like it, in exchange for either repairing or removing a polluting vehicle from the road. If you want to be rid of the car, you're being well compensated for it. If you then buy another car, you have to pay tax on it. If that tax is a bridge to far for you, keep the car, ride a bus, lease a car, buy a bicycle, buy a less expensive car, etc. The tax isn't a result of the higher NOx output.

dubStrom, did you even read what I wrote? 90% of your response has nothing to do with it. I even went out of my way to tell you that it wasn't about you.

All I said was that if someone doesn't pay their required state taxes, bad things are likely to happen; tax laws in other states are irrelevant. That's it. You responded with pointless anecdotes and commentary about some fictitious back-story you've invented for me.

dubStrom said:

And your point is...??

What does this have to do with tax policy on the buyback at the State level. Are you saying that States will further penalize the victims of dieselgate with 100% tax because the settlement is negotiated? Full tax on new car purchases using buyback money will hurt the economy in the eyes of every State politician and administrator.

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The only ones who might be hurt by 100% tax on the replacement car are the victims who buy their replacement from the company that victimized them in the first place. I think everyone accepts that there's no way around full taxation if the replacement vehicle is a Volvo, Honda/Acura, etc. Probably the same goes for Audi, since most Audi dealerships are separate from VW dealerships.

S2000_guy said:

The only ones who might be hurt by 100% tax on the replacement car are the victims who buy their replacement from the company that victimized them in the first place. I think everyone accepts that there's no way around full taxation if the replacement vehicle is a Volvo, Honda/Acura, etc. Probably the same goes for Audi, since most Audi dealerships are separate from VW dealerships.

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It depends on which State you are in, I think. Missouri has a mechanism for claiming the tax credit up to 6 months. It's the Notice of Sale or Transfer form. There's one attached to our titles (tear off). And there's a PDF form if you don't have that one (Form 5049). So in Missouri, there is a viable mechanism to buy a new car from any dealership, and use that form to reduce your taxable amount by the amount of what you sold the TDI for. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a "private sale".

There will undoubtedly be clarification needed from the DOR for this unusual buyback situation. I looked up Massachusetts law on new car purchases, and Mass DOR is explicit about the key issue- if you can prove that you paid sales tax on a car that you sold. and bought a new car, you are liable for taxes only on the difference. This may not work out in every State, but we all need to be making phone calls to motor vehicle and/or DOR in our State for clarification.

There is a possibility that the clean trade-in base number is all that you will get credit for, and that fixed percentage and additional ~$2500 more will NOT be creditable. But even that is better than 100%.

dubStrom said:

<zip>

So some engineers at Volkswagen lied. Now the entire company is paying through the nose, court ordered.

In fact, the settlement pays buyback amounts way above what people could have gotten on the open market. I already gained $1000, and stand to gain another ~$6000-7000 in the restitution if I keep it. Wow. This is court ordered, and enforced by law.

Pretty cool if you ask me.

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I also pocketed the $1,000 -- with a small discount. Will also gain a little more -- Mostly because I paid less than MSRP

Will also get to drive it for a few months - depreciation free -- lest I crash it.

My focus is the CAS Attorneys who did the work.

Guess we all remember the naysayers bad mouthing CAS and the sharks ... we get the shaft, and they get he gold

.... best part of this mess is seeing vw take one where it hurts

.... and the fact I will be able to take my BB $$$$s and trade up for some up to date TECH features. -- like back up Camera

.... One other nice issue. I will be getting away from the AWFUL (dark) hard to see vw dash instruments. Like the speedometer

grawk said:

the "victims" of dieselgate aren't being penalized. They're being given money if they'd like it, in exchange for either repairing or removing a polluting vehicle from the road..

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Penalized?

Spent a lot of time and effort to get my 2015 VW Golf DSG TDI

Shopped 6-7 dealers. (by phone and email). Bought my 357 miles "down the road motors." Saved 'bout $4,000. They delivered it to my driveway

The effort and time to get a replacement is NOT FREE

grawk said:

the "victims" of dieselgate aren't being penalized. They're being given money if they'd like it, in exchange for either repairing or removing a polluting vehicle from the road. If you want to be rid of the car, you're being well compensated for it. If you then buy another car, you have to pay tax on it. If that tax is a bridge to far for you, keep the car, ride a bus, lease a car, buy a bicycle, buy a less expensive car, etc. The tax isn't a result of the higher NOx output.

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Yes, I agree that folks that bought one of these TDI's aren't being penalized by VW. Some people feel that way, but for most of us that got the good will package, and are in line for buy back or restitution feel pretty good about the way VW is handling this. I am still leaning towards keeping it and taking the restitution, but from what I am reading at MO DOR website, I suspect that it won't be because I would have to pay 100% tax on any replacement.

The distinction between court ordered and negotiated is not clear. The settlement was negotiated, and once the judge finalizes the deal it will essentially be a court ordered settlement. Court ordered only in the sense that it is approved by the courts. For tax purposes, it is different than court ordered.

My point is that on the State level, the question of whether or not it is taxable will be good for consumers in some States. I think Missouri falls into this category. And Massachusetts also recognizes the sale of a car that you've already paid taxes for as deductable from the price of a new car. In both States, this might require clarification from DOR, but it is promising.

The upshot of all this discussion seems clear, that all this has nothing to do with VW, the court, lawyers, or, in fact, of the whole Dieselgate settlement process. If this issue ever entered into the negotiations leading to the settlement, perhaps it helped determine the size of the compensation part— and maybe it didn't.
So: depending on the state of residence, each individual must find out from their own state department of revenue, comptroller -whatever it's called in that state- whether or not there will be any sales tax credit for the buyback.
I live in Illinois, and I have read the two cases involved in the tax code that allow for sales tax credit, and I don't believe that the buyback qualifies under either. So maybe those who say the only workable route is a legislative one are correct— or let's say that appears to be the case here in IL. And good luck here getting those people to do anything about it.

Rico567 said:

If this issue ever entered into the negotiations leading to the settlement, perhaps it helped determine the size of the compensation part— and maybe it didn't.

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I think they probably gave it at least a little thought in an effort to make the settlement as equitable as possible. If anything, they decided to make it a sale/buyback and not a trade-in because of the varying tax laws regarding trade-ins and varying tax rates. Otherwise, two identical vehicles could have drastically different values just across state lines, which would be inequitable.

That said, obviously some states have laws that give you a credit for taxes already paid without requiring an actual trade-in (as discussed in this thread and elsewhere).

dubStrom said:

I've always been treated with remarkable fairness and kindness at motor vehicle. Of couse, one after another, the

people in line before me do not have their proof of paying property taxes for the last two years, or don't have a bill of sale, or whatnot. They go away, and it puts me at the counter sooner.

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I happen to agree with you here in the State of Vermont. The DMV workers are very pleasant and easy to deal with.

However, many years ago I lived in NJ, and DMV field offices were privatized. The concessions were usually under the control of a local politically connected person.

One day, I went to a DMV. There was a table with all the forms, and a bunch of pencils in a coffee can to fill them out. People filled out their forms and got into a slow moving line. When they got to the front, the surly clerk would tell them that the form had to be filled out in pen, not pencil.

NJ and Calf have agreed to take the money from VW and part of that is they can not refuse to reggie your tai even if there is not a fix.

dubStrom said:

NJ does not take the money, the VW customer does. And there are two options, keep it and get the fix, or sell the car back. In the first scenario it is restitution, and in the second it is a buyback with restitution. Point being customer can sell it back if NJ requires emissions compliance and customer doesn't want it.

I am sure California will not allow non-compliant vehicles to register. CA has no actual diesel testing, but that can be easily handled with a certificate from VW ensuring it has been modified and fixed.

NJ could easily require compliance for registration. Missouri requires a safety inspection (every 2 years, new cars exempt), proof that your county property taxes are paid, and proof of liability insurance. Adding an emissions compliance document would not be unusual. But maybe they won't.

Why do you think NJ will not require emissions compliance? Is there an emissions testing program in place in NJ (for gassers)?

Cleveland, Ohio has emissions testing (lived there) and can't register without it. No testing available for diesel, but California exempts them. Diesel cars have always been certified compliant by EPA, assumed compliant.

I am hoping Missouri will not force compliance for registration, but it would not surprise me.

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I say 95 % mine will be going back, I was leaning on keeping it but I have 2011 w 130,000 miles on it, need a TB and have a cracked DPF which showed up at 125,000 miles, indie says about 3000 to do the DPF and the TB, not sure it is worth it, I already put $3500 in this car in 5 years in repairs and that is not counting the HPFP which VW paid for, love the car but the cracked DPF is really pushing me to buyback land. My 5% is I have no idea what I will replace it with. There is really nothing out there to replace it.

Part of the penalties to VW by the government which really irks me is that the actual people of the country will never see a dime. So and so many billions of $$$. Does the government take that money and say "Hey, you all get free medicare for a couple years", or "Hey, no property taxes for you this year". Do you know what I mean? Any and all penalties that are paid to gov't go in their back pocket. It's a legal mafia. Meanwhile VW factory workers get reduced hours or work for free to keep their jobs... again hurting the common man. Nobody wins but gov't.

Lets be honest, VW TDI's make up prob less than 1% of all diesel vehicles in North America (I could be wrong) and how much "bad emissions" do they really put out compared to all the old garbage semi-trucks, diesel pickups, etc?? If VW TDI's are "killing" people with emissions then all the other diesels are kind to the environment? At least I burn B100 biodiesel I make myself in my pickup. lol

p_ferlow
You are correct. How about the young kid with his Dodge Cummings diesel with the single smoke stack coming up through the middle of the bed. Every stop sign, red light or on ramp when he smashes the peddle down and you cant see because of all the black smoke. The EPA and government saw a huge payday from Volkswagen and jumped on it with both feet. I would like to know which is worse, when you burn 1 1/2 gallons of gas through a car and 1 gallon of diesel through a VW. and lets not forget diesel trucks are exempt from diesel emissions inspections. (at least in pa)

p_ferlow said:

Does the government take that money and say "Hey, you all get free medicare for a couple years", or "Hey, no property taxes for you this year". Do you know what I mean? Any and all penalties that are paid to gov't go in their back pocket. It's a legal mafia. Meanwhile VW factory workers get reduced hours or work for free to keep their jobs... again hurting the common man. Nobody wins but gov't.

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spark143 said:

p_ferlow
You are correct. How about the young kid with his Dodge Cummings diesel with the single smoke stack coming up through the middle of the bed. Every stop sign, red light or on ramp when he smashes the peddle down and you cant see because of all the black smoke. The EPA and government saw a huge payday from Volkswagen and jumped on it with both feet.

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These are not logical arguments, they are rants. I have three TDI’s now. It breaks my heart that they are done in NA now. But it is a ridiculous, illogical reading of events to assert that our regulators should have turned a blind eye to VW’s deliberate fraud because a “young kid” somewhere is rolling coal. Or, more ridiculously, that the money brought in by the settlement should turn around and show up in some other program. Even from the beginning of our nation, 240 years ago, it never worked that way. National governments don’t work like your office coffee change pool.

As a general rule, dieselgate has become a proxy war for folks to talk politics on this site, showing all the typical problems with talking politics, primarily, talking backwards from a conclusion. If you “hate government,” you hate the dieselgate settlement. I wonder, sometimes, why folks feel a need to beat this particular horse every possible chance. It’s like a rash they can’t stop scratching. Don’t you get bored writing this over and over again?

I took the buyback.

And turned right back around and bought another 2015 golf, for half again the price, and 20K miles, vs the 2015 I had with 70K on it.

Why? because the gov said I shouldn't own one for my own good. It only makes me want one more. Oh, and its getting a Malone.

Why? because I like it, and I want it. And I'll drive it till the wheels fall off.

It's almost as much fun as the AR15 people wring their hands over and despise me owning...... Almost.

The only reason I accepted the buy back is because VW paid me a good $8000 more than the insurance company would have. Needless to say, no one is driving it now. No "fix" for this:


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=472255

I like my 2015 GSW, but I could find no 6MT around here, and I could have done without the above.

Borsig said:

I took the buyback.

And turned right back around and bought another 2015 golf, for half again the price, and 20K miles, vs the 2015 I had with 70K on it.

Why? because the gov said I shouldn't own one for my own good. It only makes me want one more. Oh, and its getting a Malone.

Why? because I like it, and I want it. And I'll drive it till the wheels fall off.

It's almost as much fun as the AR15 people wring their hands over and despise me owning...... Almost.

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Do you mind sharing the buyback price of your old 2015 and the purchase price of your new 2015? Of the buyback price, how much was restitution?

jibberjive said:

Do you mind sharing the buyback price of your old 2015 and the purchase price of your new 2015? Of the buyback price, how much was restitution?

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Buyback - 2015 Golf wagon, SEL + light pack, DSG, 69Kish miles. 29,860 or so.

Bought - 2015 Golf 4dr SE DSG+ light pack, 19,800 miles, CPO, 16,250+TTT. CPO waranty is unlimited miles, 5yrs.

I no longer needed a wagon as the wife's car is a 2018 Outback 3.6R Limited.

Getting the golf was a no brainer. I also swapped the SEL seats (and the VW rotary accesory wheels) from my wagon into the golf SE before turning it in. Turned in the wagon with an SE interior, and steel 16"s from craigslist ($50) and now have two sets (17 and 18) for the golf.

SE had all i wanted, minus the seats. With a seat swap it was perfect and I like the silver trim better than the SEL piano black and fake carbon fiber. Dual zone climate control in a car that size is useless, and the nav sucked anyway.

I bought my used 09 wagon manual with 192k for $6800.

Rolled it to 260k miles, vw gave me $9545 for it.

Put it all towards a S 4dr wagon dsg 2015 with 7 miles on the clock, tripled the payments, within 8 months I killed that loan.

Just making 20k on the 2015.

Why not do what i did? Newer same car, basically financially transfered my "investment" and then some to a zero mileage vehicle that's essentially, kinda, 8 years newer...


I was going to do a Malone and delete, but I figured hurry and kill the loan, then save for the delete, in the meantime I have a warranty, so what's the difference?

Warranty parts that fail or remove parts that fail?


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