3.0 TDI CLAA 461HP/885nm new record?

Macradiators.com

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Measured on 2 different dyno. Injectors not even the owner knows who makes them, we have tried to trace the package haha ..imagine that, to see where it came from.

Im sure if Ruben makes huge power he wont say anything about important HW parts. ;)
Just the way things are.
Will see soon how it goes on 402m.
 

Rub87

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30% losses.. as in over 100hp, sounds a lot.

What you guys need to realize is that major part of losses are an additive component, and only a small part are factor componenent.

Example:eek:

100 engine hp car driving 250 kph on rollers (4wd 2 rolls per wheel) has lets say 65 whp. Making for 35 hp or 35% loss at 250 kph. Lets say 30 hp is loss of tyres at the wheels, and 5 hp is loss in gearbox/diff etc.

500 engine hp car driving 250 kph on same dyno and 450 at the wheels. Due to the slightly larger slip of tyre, the tyre loss might now be 35-40 hp, and geabox loss lets say 10-15 hp. Making the total loss only about 10-15% max
 

raffshore

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Measured on 2 different dyno. Injectors not even the owner knows who makes them, we have tried to trace the package haha ..imagine that, to see where it came from.

Im sure if Ruben makes huge power he wont say anything about important HW parts. ;)
Just the way things are.
Will see soon how it goes on 402m.
I am sure now kids beat you up at school ;)
 

Turbo Z

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if you say that about Ruben you are heavily mistaken...


Measured on 2 different dyno. Injectors not even the owner knows who makes them, we have tried to trace the package haha ..imagine that, to see where it came from.

Im sure if Ruben makes huge power he wont say anything about important HW parts. ;)
Just the way things are.
Will see soon how it goes on 402m.
 

hatemi

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Last quattro I dynoed had 295whp and 337 calculated at the crank. A6 3.0TDI Tip.
Measured in fourth gear. Losses go up if speed is higher.

The dyno had large 600mm diameter rolls. With smaler rollers and cradle rolls ( ie dynamics, mainline, bosch lps,) losses are usually tad higher.


Lähetetty minun Moto G (4) laitteesta Tapatalkilla
 

Rub87

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jep. type of roll makes biggest impact on losses. and you cannot say this losses in % of engine HP. if you double engine HP these losses will be nearly constant if you drive same speed on the dyno
 

mrchill

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I find that the small roller dynos are more accurate than the large roller ones.
 

xjay1337

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Using a dyno to measure before and after is fine but without strapping lots of cars down at the same day on the same dyno it's hard to measure with certainty or accuracy especially as it seems some peoples figures are crazy. Or you can gain free bhp by adding "w" before the "hp" :)

I prefer 1/4 mile times (mainly terminal speeds) as an indicator of performance as it's generally harder to fudge the figures and provides greater indication of real world performance.
 

sam-

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I personnally look more a 100-200km/h times (especially when done with 5hz or higher gps rate) as on a 1/4 some cars suffer of traction problem.
 

Rub87

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I find that the small roller dynos are more accurate than the large roller ones.

Opposite. The bigger roll the less loss at tyre.

On dyno with 2 8' rolls per wheel a 4wd 100 hp car has like 0 wp at 270 kph. Doesnt sound good no?
 

mrchill

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Interesting. Because we have tested it over and over...and gotten confirmation from the dyno manufacturers that the small rollers with less inertia are more accurate than the large one...also, they (small rollers)are more sensitive to changes(when diagnosing driveability). One thing we do besides always using the same dyno when charting changes, is to run a couple of stock, unmodified cars first, in order to get a sense of the dyno and the operator....as these are also factors in addition to the settings.
 

hatemi

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Keeping in line worh the OT talk here?

The most common dyno in US is Dynojet. Its usually regarded as the standard and what others are compared to. It is also regarded as the most optimistic of them all. As a matter a fact some other brands have "dynojet correction factor" to be able to make them read similar values as the dynojets in the area and to satisfy the fat corvette drivers etc.

Almost all of them have some way the operator can affect the readings. Dynamics with the shootout mode is a good way of keeping the operator out of the results.

Small roller vs big roller and inertia vs braked is another common battle. Both methods have their pros and cons. Inertia is accurate and simple way of measuring the power. You cant tune steady state or part load areas with just inertia so for tuning stand alone ecus they are far from optimal. This is where small roller low inertia braked dynos realy shine. You can select a rpm or speed and the dyno keeps the engine at that point no matter if the go fast pedal is at 10% or 100%.

Lähetetty minun Moto G (4) laitteesta Tapatalkilla
 

Macradiators.com

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Playing with parameters on the latest Soft Engine dyno ..only gained 3hp. Cant mess with it, a 390hp rated car tuned elswhere , gave only 347 on this one.
It just re calibrates and throws out the same result if you mess with it.
I guess this tuner wont be making world record numbers on it. ;)
 

Rub87

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Interesting. Because we have tested it over and over...and gotten confirmation from the dyno manufacturers that the small rollers with less inertia are more accurate than the large one...also, they (small rollers)are more sensitive to changes(when diagnosing driveability). One thing we do besides always using the same dyno when charting changes, is to run a couple of stock, unmodified cars first, in order to get a sense of the dyno and the operator....as these are also factors in addition to the settings.
Yes, very intereststing is that the only type of roll allowed to do emission certification for example is a big single roll/wheel with 48' diameter. must be pure coincidence :rolleyes:
 

Macradiators.com

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Rollers or no rollers 420hp bmw just did 11.6s on 402m
A5 manual transmission and worse injectors ever. 420hp did 11.9s
Both cars street legal diesels, fully equipped.
These guys drove 800km to get here. Geez

Its time for bigger turbos for bmw.

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mrchill

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Not in this country. Most of the dynos used for emissions are small roller dynos.
 

TDIMeister

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The size of the dyno rollers doesn't matter for emissions testing because vehicles are tested at speeds corresponding to national speed limits and never tested anywhere near their rated power. Tire deformations are lower and do not factor in much when the key is following a speed-time course rather than measuring outright acceleration rate and power output. It is nevertheless quite certain that certification centers are not using Dynojets, Dynapacks, Mustangs, or any of the brands commonly used in the aftermarket LOL. Each testing body will set standards and procedures, and repeatability and consistency are far more important than what technology of roller is employed.

Edit: About dyno losses, AWD and slushbox automatics will have larger driveline losses, but not in the order of 30% and certainly not linear to the engine output :rolleyes:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=75062

If there's ~100kW lost at the driveline or tires, you will definitely see this with infra-red imaging - actually you won't even need to - your tires will certainly melt and your transmission/differential will need forced cooling with massive heat exchangers. :rolleyes:
 
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Bobby Singh

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Rollers or no rollers 420hp bmw just did 11.6s on 402m
A5 manual transmission and worse injectors ever. 420hp did 11.9s
Both cars street legal diesels, fully equipped.
These guys drove 800km to get here. Geez

Its time for bigger turbos for bmw.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Impressive time for the A5 - What kind of timing gear are you guys using? Please don't say a casio stopwatch.
The reason I ask because even with 440hp/900nm I can't get into the 11's
This is with 900nm take off from the line in a TIP gearbox
Best I can get at santa pod is 12.3
At another drag strip I managed 12.1
But never 11's

So far you have stated a 100 to 200 of 7.x whereas everyone else is in the 11.x with sameish power
1/4 miles time that appears be unrealistic

Would be nice if you can post vcds logs with speed and time stamp.
 

Macradiators.com

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Official certified timing gear from USA, its international event.
You can contest any dyno number you want, but you cant comment about timing :p

Today we had cars from BG doing 9.1s , Moldova GTR godzilla done 8.7s , gti 9.5s , 911 1250hp porsche constant 9.7s, r35gtr 1000hp 9.8s
No bike went under 10s, 10.2 was best

Tdi cars were a disappointment, lupo tdi 4x4 12s , lots of 2.0 pd in 12.x seconds

2 identical cars at 400hp from different tuners will never go identical..1 will always beat the other
Owner will present his car on the forum shortly.
Details later.

Meantime from car's CAN


Lots pf cars 3.0 doing 12.1-12.2 , 2.0 class was not so strong, lots broke
BMW doing constantly 1.6-1.7s 60ft and about 10runs at 11.7 , 3 runs at 11.6s
 
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Macradiators.com

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Now i see it's a SuperFlow dyno..not known for the accuracy
Just to have a comparison look at Superflow from JD engineering.. 450hp on stock everything with just IC and exhaust on the 3.0 Bitdi .. says it all

the 537hp claimed and 409whp measured ..did 12.7 seconds and broke, not a happy ending
Curious is that 100hp less powered cars went much faster
 
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Macradiators.com

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Probably LOL
TBH i'm sick of high numbers on dyno that dont go fast as they are supposed to
SuperFLOW = SuperOptimism ..just go to JD eng on FB and be convinced

Ill post my own 217HP at 1.6bar boost ..LOL

 
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Ruan

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Keeping in line worh the OT talk here?

The most common dyno in US is Dynojet. Its usually regarded as the standard and what others are compared to. It is also regarded as the most optimistic of them all. As a matter a fact some other brands have "dynojet correction factor" to be able to make them read similar values as the dynojets in the area and to satisfy the fat corvette drivers etc.

Almost all of them have some way the operator can affect the readings. Dynamics with the shootout mode is a good way of keeping the operator out of the results.

Small roller vs big roller and inertia vs braked is another common battle. Both methods have their pros and cons. Inertia is accurate and simple way of measuring the power. You cant tune steady state or part load areas with just inertia so for tuning stand alone ecus they are far from optimal. This is where small roller low inertia braked dynos realy shine. You can select a rpm or speed and the dyno keeps the engine at that point no matter if the go fast pedal is at 10% or 100%.
So much crap being thrown around in this thread, calling different manufacturers of dynamometers good/bad. 95% of accuracy comes from the operator understanding the dyno and how it works... Near enough every time I see a dyno being operated, I near enough cry. The complete lack of understanding of how dynos work by operators is just ridiculous. Go watch some videos on YT of people operating dynos - wheelspin, stupid fast ramp rates, hitting the brakes as soon as the run is over, leaving the engine in gear at the end of the run, cars jumping around on the rollers... Then you see some of the graphs which are put out, which at best have the bit showing a complete cockup by the operator cut out, or some of them with the coastdown left in which has lumps and bumps in - but nobody questions it because "it was calibrated last week" and "it was $30k"...

The amount of times I hear quotes from operators such as "If you're getting traction issues, use a faster ramp rate" and from a reputable dyno installer I even heard this gem: "An inertia only run should be around 15% higher than a braked run"... Just ***.

It appears that VERY few dynamometers have the moment of inertia configured correctly in the software, I've seen this time and again that there's a huge lump in the graph where the absorber cuts in to hold the ramp rate when the engine starts making enough power, but it's just completely covered up by the fact the smoothing has been cranked to 11. In my opinion, a braked vs inertia run on any dyno with braking should yield near identical results, the only case it may not is a heavily turbocharged car on a set of rollers with a very small rotating mass. It should make no difference if the rollers are large or small, heavy or light - the configuration of the moment of inertia in software is what allows it to know how much energy was put into the rollers to accelerate the rollers when the brake was not absorbing the energy, rather the energy was put into accelerating a known mass.

A braked dynamometer is at best a "guess" to calculate the amount of power transferred from the engine via the transmission and tyres into the rollers, minus some of the energy lost in the transfer of that power. You can't measure all of it, it's simply not possible. It is absolutely NOT flywheel horsepower, it's at best a poor estimate of that.

An inertia dyno again is at best a "guess" to calculate the amount of power transferred from the engine, via the transmission and tyres into the rollers, not taking into account any amount of energy lost in that process - since you cannot measure that. It is NOT wheel horsepower, since the pressure your tyres are at make a huge difference, the surface of the dyno, the temperature, the compound...

The only dynos that can measure something approximating WHEEL horsepower are hub dynos, however, they still cannot measure exactly the losses involved in the transmission etc, they, again, can at best provide an approximation.

Unless you're going to rag the engine out and put it on an engine dyno, don't even bother have the argument, just smile and nod - because no amount of people whining xyz dyno is better than abc dyno is going to make any difference.
 

Macradiators.com

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I think numbers are becoming irrelevant, there has been a huge scandal over here regarding dyno numbers ..
430hp car on 1 dyno gave 387hp on another (model you cant mess with)..there are plenty of examples ..

JD is making on superflow 450hp with stock turbos and injectors (IMPOSSIBLE) on a6 3.0 biturbo
 

Rub87

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For JD rule of thumb is -8%. i tuned few biturbos, even with dpf delete and rs6 airbox, wagner they struggle to make 1350 kg/h at 2.8 bar boost. Nets around 410-420 hp depending on the egt u like
 

Macradiators.com

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Totally agree with you. Somebody tuned the same car with full exhaust, wagner etc...i think 410-420 as you say.
Completechip also tuned same car ..maxed out everything on his dyno 404 hp on 180k engine iirc.

From there they started to upgrade .injectors ..turbos. wmi etc, but remains a family car, not suited imo for drag racing.
 

eddie_1

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So pointing out fake videos are now bad? My bad, sorry. I rather read something that is based fact or at least valided otherways. So here we are having just superfast and superslow cars on this topic. Huge claims are given without any solid validation what so ever. What ever to warp 9.95.
What happened to your car man? I saw it on some facebook video with white smoke?
 
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