When to replace water pump and fuel pump?

halfbytecode · Dec 17, 2017

My car has a 1.6 TDI common rail engine. It has done over 127,000 kms over a period of 7 years.

I am wondering when is it recommended to replace the water pump and the fuel pump, even if it would be precautionary to prevent any issues cropping up, or me being stranded on the roadside.

P.S. This car has two fuel pumps, a high pressure unit, and a regular one. One of them is close to the engine, while the other is near the fuel tank.

Henrick · Dec 18, 2017

Hi!

The timing belt replacement is due at 210,000 km (yes, that much). That is stated in your service booklet. Water pump should be done at that mileage too.

Some early 1.6 TDIs had problems with water pumps leaking at low mileage. Instant coolant loss occured.

There are no specified replacement intervals for high or low pressure fuel pumps. They should be replaced "when they break". High pressure fuel pump on 1.6 TDIs is made of cast iron and the design is nearly bullet proof.

I wouldn't worry about any replacements for yet another 60,000-80,000 kms if I were you.

halfbytecode · Dec 18, 2017

@Henrick

Thank you for the detailed reply.

VW has exceptionally shorter service intervals around here, as compared to rest of the world. They keep on flip flopping between 90,000 and 120,000 kms for the timing belt change recommendation.

I had my car's done at 90,000 kms, along with the serpentine belt, needle bearings and belt tensioner.

- Should the water pump also have been changed back then?

- Considering the well-built high pressure fuel pump, would it be an issue, say, if the low pressure fuel pump breaks while I'm driving the car? Like the engine sucking in air, in reduced or no fuel supply.

BobnOH · Dec 18, 2017

halfbytecode said:
@Henrick

.................

- Should the water pump also have been changed back then?

- Considering the well-built high pressure fuel pump, would it be an issue, say, if the low pressure fuel pump breaks while I'm driving the car? Like the engine sucking in air, in reduced or no fuel supply.

Yes, water pump should have een replaced as part of the timing belt service.
Your pumps are likely O.K., but there is some logic to replacement of the in tank unit.

halfbytecode · Dec 18, 2017

BobnOH said:
Yes, water pump should have een replaced as part of the timing belt service.
Your pumps are likely O.K., but there is some logic to replacement of the in tank unit.

Thanks for the quick reply.

- Are there any noticeable symptoms of the water pump going bad?

My car was checked for pressure loss, by using a "manual pressure pump" on the coolant reservoir. There is none, as per the dealership techs. They are always quick to conclude that the water pump is good. Is this assessment correct?

- Are there any signs to look out for, to replace the in-tank fuel pump, or should I just have it replaced?

Henrick · Dec 18, 2017

halfbytecode said:
@Henrick

Thank you for the detailed reply.

VW has exceptionally shorter service intervals around here, as compared to rest of the world. They keep on flip flopping between 90,000 and 120,000 kms for the timing belt change recommendation.

I had my car's done at 90,000 kms, along with the serpentine belt, needle bearings and belt tensioner.

- Should the water pump also have been changed back then?

- Considering the well-built high pressure fuel pump, would it be an issue, say, if the low pressure fuel pump breaks while I'm driving the car? Like the engine sucking in air, in reduced or no fuel supply.

Where in the world are you located? I have never heard of VW cutting TB service interval in a half for some reason at some specific region...

Also, are you sure it's VW who is recommending the shorter TB interval?
Or is it VW dealer who is insisting on that?
I am still interested what the official/original service maintenance booklet says for that car

halfbytecode · Dec 19, 2017

Henrick said:
Where in the world are you located? I have never heard of VW cutting TB service interval in a half for some reason at some specific region...

Also, are you sure it's VW who is recommending the shorter TB interval?
Or is it VW dealer who is insisting on that?
I am still interested what the official/original service maintenance booklet says for that car

VW recommends replacing the TB at 120,000 kms around here. It says so in service booklets of later car models.

However, VW switched to 90,000 kms after some premature belt failures. It was on their regional website, and displayed in all dealerships too.

The booklet with my car does not have the interval mentioned. Strangely, only for 1.2 TDI, whereas my car has a 1.6 TDI engine.

I can tell you something even more unusual. VW recommends air filters and fuel filters to be changed every 15,000 kms, around here. Blame high dust levels, and subpar fuel quality for that.

Henrick · Dec 19, 2017

Really weird! Wonder why there were no recalls for maintenance intervals for the rest of world vehicles... I can't imagine how in one region the timing belt can safely survive 210,000 km and in another one (unless it's Antarctica?) just 90,000 km on the very same engine

halfbytecode · Dec 19, 2017

Henrick said:
Really weird! Wonder why there were no recalls for maintenance intervals for the rest of world vehicles... I can't imagine how in one region the timing belt can safely survive 210,000 km and in another one (unless it's Antarctica?) just 90,000 km on the very same engine

Is there a way to get in touch with the VW engineers, for getting an explanation?

Lightflyer1 · Dec 19, 2017

What is your reluctance to reveal your location? It may help determine what is going on.

Henrick · Dec 19, 2017

halfbytecode said:
Is there a way to get in touch with the VW engineers, for getting an explanation?

Not any easy way I know of. I found some forms for contact but you need to have a Doctor/Professor degree to do that. Also, it has been stated that the reply might take 6-12 months or so. Can't find that form now...

halfbytecode · Dec 20, 2017

I was reading about VW switching over to long life belts. It came to my mind, that it is possible they are using the regular belts for some reason, instead of long life versions, around here.

Anyway, I should mention the location, as it has been rightly said it could help in determining what is going on. It's India.

I can try to get the part number of the belt we are using here, for determining more about this.

Lightflyer1 · Dec 20, 2017

I spent several months there in Noida for work. Fortunately I didn't have to drive myself while there.

halfbytecode · Dec 20, 2017

Lightflyer1 said:
I spent several months there in Noida for work. Fortunately I didn't have to drive myself while there.

The traffic scenario in the big cities should be improved. I do not face much traffic where I live. For the most part, it is kind of comparable to the North American traffic, excluding large cities like New York, and Toronto. Traffic discipline is another story, though.

- Do you think the high temperature during summers, could be affecting the belt material, reducing its life and warranting comparatively early replacement?

The temperature in summers gets as high as 120°F.

- Do we know the recommended interval for belt change, in areas with even higher temperature, like the Middle East?

Lightflyer1 · Dec 20, 2017

Well Texas gets close to those temps as well as the desert areas here in the US and no special warnings from VW for those owners.

halfbytecode · Dec 20, 2017

Lightflyer1 said:
Well Texas gets close to those temps as well as the desert areas here in the US and no special warnings from VW for those owners.

This is getting really strange.

Franko6 · Dec 20, 2017

There has been no mention of mileage. We sell a long-life timing belt for VW diesels for the PD. going back to the '96 models. It's 100,000 miles (160,000 kilometers) or 5 years. The years have gotten more people into trouble than the miles. In your very arid environment, I would suggest you not take the chance. Heat is a factor in timing belt life expectancy.

At your current years of service, you have justified a timing belt interval.

halfbytecode · Dec 20, 2017

Franko6 said:
There has been no mention of mileage. We sell a long-life timing belt for VW diesels for the PD. going back to the '96 models. It's 100,000 miles (160,000 kilometers) or 5 years. The years have gotten more people into trouble than the miles. In your very arid environment, I would suggest you not take the chance. Heat is a factor in timing belt life expectancy.

At your current years of service, you have justified a timing belt interval.

Yes, I had the timing belt, serpentine belt, needle bearings, and the tensioner, changed at the 5 year mark. It was supposed to be the 90,000 kms maintenance, as that was VW's recommendation around here, at the time.

It has made me realize that cars are used much lesser here, than other parts of the world. At 5 years, the expected mileage is 90,000 kms. Possibly, that is the reason for the belt change recommendation at lower mileage.

- Considering the running conditions here, should I get the water pump, and even the in-tank fuel pump changed?

The dealership techs used a piece of equipment to apply pressure to the coolant reservoir, to detect any pressure loss, and subsequently any issue with the water pump.

whitedog · Dec 20, 2017

I'm not sure what is meant by needle bearings. I know what needle bearings are, but I don't understand it's relevance here. Did they mean that they replaced the rollers? And why wasn't the water pump replaced at that time? That should be part of a proper package with the timing belt. Of course if they are changing the TB at 90,000 Km intervals, then it almost makes sense to change the WP every other TB change. But it just doesn't make sense to change the TB at 90,000 intervals. Do they have many pleasure boats there? Maybe that explains it.

halfbytecode · Dec 20, 2017

whitedog said:
I'm not sure what is meant by needle bearings. I know what needle bearings are, but I don't understand it's relevance here. Did they mean that they replaced the rollers? And why wasn't the water pump replaced at that time? That should be part of a proper package with the timing belt. Of course if they are changing the TB at 90,000 Km intervals, then it almost makes sense to change the WP every other TB change. But it just doesn't make sense to change the TB at 90,000 intervals. Do they have many pleasure boats there? Maybe that explains it.

Yes, the rollers.

The water pump is not included in the "engine repair kit" they use. That merely contains the rollers and the associated fasteners.

Even the timing belt, and serpentine belt, are not included in that.

90,000 kms / 5 years was the VW recommendation for the TB change. It was earlier 120,000 kms / 7 years, and it seems to be back to it now, from the 90,000 kms.

Henrick · Dec 20, 2017

OK, so it's India. I guess VWs for India market are also manufactured in India, not in Germany or Mexico. That might also justify. As only specific market is being targeted, there might be an entire different manufacturing line, e.g. to build cheaper cars or less reliable ones (e.g. if it's know that average car lives only 3-4 years there, suffers in car accidents often, etc). As a result, they might be using different belts/materials which have lower life expectancy.

Personally I doubt a bit in the above theory. It's like the same PD (BRM) and CR (CBEA) engines. In Europe, both were available for Long-Life oil service intervals (up to 20k miles on a single oil change) but in N.A. they mandated first oil change at 5k miles, then 10k miles, and then every 10k miles while in Europe it has been every 20k starting from the very first service.

I think VW believed that due to "old traditions" people in US like frequent oil changes, e.g. 3k-5k mile intervals. Giving them 10k intervals would be insane.

Later on (CR CBEA for example) they got more courage to offer 10k intervals from the beginning. Meanwhile, the same intervals in Europe were 20k.

Fuel filters. Same engines, same story. BRM - 20k mile intervals US, 60k miles Europe. Yeah, fuel quality, moisture in fuel blah blah blah but NOT to such extent! 3x times difference in service interval...

halfbytecode · Dec 20, 2017

Henrick said:
OK, so it's India. I guess VWs for India market are also manufactured in India, not in Germany or Mexico. That might also justify. As only specific market is being targeted, there might be an entire different manufacturing line, e.g. to build cheaper cars or less reliable ones (e.g. if it's know that average car lives only 3-4 years there, suffers in car accidents often, etc). As a result, they might be using different belts/materials which have lower life expectancy.

Personally I doubt a bit in the above theory. It's like the same PD (BRM) and CR (CBEA) engines. In Europe, both were available for Long-Life oil service intervals (up to 20k miles on a single oil change) but in N.A. they mandated first oil change at 5k miles, then 10k miles, and then every 10k miles while in Europe it has been every 20k starting from the very first service.

I think VW believed that due to "old traditions" people in US like frequent oil changes, e.g. 3k-5k mile intervals. Giving them 10k intervals would be insane.

Later on (CR CBEA for example) they got more courage to offer 10k intervals from the beginning. Meanwhile, the same intervals in Europe were 20k.

Fuel filters. Same engines, same story. BRM - 20k mile intervals US, 60k miles Europe. Yeah, fuel quality, moisture in fuel blah blah blah but NOT to such extent! 3x times difference in service interval...

VW has localized the car quite well, while maintaining the quality. These are actually exported as well, to Mexico, Brazil, Russia, etc.

Anyhow, the engine is actually imported for my car, as well as a lot of the major parts. I believe the TB belt is also imported here.

Edit: The TB part number is 03L 109 119 J and the OEM is Continental. This belt does not even have a localized variant, going by ETKA.

Henrick · Dec 22, 2017

Then it's probably just a marketing trick to make more profit.
If I were you, I wouldn't be that nervous on doing all the maintenance early.

halfbytecode · Dec 22, 2017

Henrick said:
Then it's probably just a marketing trick to make more profit.
If I were you, I wouldn't be that nervous on doing all the maintenance early.

At this point, it comes to my mind that the serpentine belt would not have lasted for too long, when it was changed at 5 years / 90,000 kms mark.

It was full of cracks, and it seemed like it could have snapped soon after that.

I do not know if early belt replacement is merely a marketing gimmick, but there seems to be something affecting the belts earlier, going by my personal experience.

Having said that, the TB did not seem to have cracks, but the tensioner was shot. It had developed play in it.

Henrick · Dec 23, 2017

Wow, really strange. In fact, these tensioners (at least on earlier PD engines) were rated for twice the timing belt interval. E.g. if TB was due at 120,000 km, it was just belt and idlers. Then when you replace for the second time at 240,000 km, you are supposed to change the tensioner this time. This was in my service booklet for old Golf 5.

halfbytecode · Dec 23, 2017

Henrick said:
Wow, really strange. In fact, these tensioners (at least on earlier PD engines) were rated for twice the timing belt interval. E.g. if TB was due at 120,000 km, it was just belt and idlers. Then when you replace for the second time at 240,000 km, you are supposed to change the tensioner this time. This was in my service booklet for old Golf 5.

The manual that came with my car does not have much about the variant with this engine. At some places, it is mentioned the data was not available at the time of publishing, while at other places, it seems to be omitted.

I can still check what it says about the tensioner replacement.

When to replace water pump and fuel pump?

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