Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

elitdi

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Jul 2, 2004
Location
Springfield, Ohio
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04 Jetta GL Wheat Beige
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Wow, I guess Blondie don't much care for the TDI. Sorry to hear that, but I do have a few comments...
For a gasser running non-synthetic, most recommend oil changes every 3,000 miles. Thats 3 oil changes compared to 1 on the TDI. From what I can see, that is about dead even. (Here the oil change for a TDI is about 3x as much as a regular oil change.)
Yes, the fuel price is .30 to .40 cents more than regular unleaded. Unfortunately, that is to be expected with winter moving in. STILL, compared to what I was driving before my TDI, the difference in fuel types would have to be $1 per gallon in order for the gasser to keep costs down for me.
With the gasser, I had to fill up at least 2 times a week... 3 times if I wanted to go anywhere on the weekend.
My TDI goes at least 8 days... including weekends, between fill-ups. I drive a new PD. Bought it June 2 of this year. It now has 15,820 miles on it. I broke it in by being gentle most of the time, with at least one burst of go-pedal when it was up to temp. Now I drive it pretty much with a bit of heavy foot (usually 75 to 80 mph)passing cars etc... and my mileage is IMPROVING. Over the last 2 months, my average mpg has went from 45 to 47 driving fast. My best ever was 50.4mpg babying it.
Tell you what Blondie... if I had the money, and your car had a 5-speed, I'd buy it from you. All that I mentioned above that I enjoy about my TDI, the cherry on top is that its fun to drive also.
Maybe you should bring the car to Ohio and sell it. I've seen 02 GLS TDI's with 60,000 miles going for $17,000 US. I don't think the Civic is doing quite that well in retaining its value. My sis has a Civic and it definitely feels cheaper inside, and the ride is terrible compared to the Jetta.
 

rdkern

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May 21, 2004
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Humboldt Co CA
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Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

My break-even point was when I first drove my Passat. It's used, so some of the initial cost-type analysis will be off, but it was the car I wanted. Why? Because even using very expensive fuel (B100) I can run it less expensively than a gasser of similar capacity. And it has the power that does come close to our VR6.

Basically, I can use a waste product that is being rescued by a local company to allow me to power my vehicle. For me, that went beyond break-even.
 

ymz

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May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
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2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

>>Not when the price of synthetic is up to 4.5x the price of dino. Also, it depends if you follow the dealer recommended interval or the manuals.<<

I use Shell Rotella-T Full Synthetic, which I pick up for U$12.80/3.7 L at WalMart in the States... I don't really see where I would save anything by having a gasser that can use dino oil (don't they all need synthetic these days?)...

As far as the maintenance intervals... Do you mean to say that you've been convinced by your dealer to change your oil more often than every 16,000 km ??? Ask for some official documentation of why that change is recommended... bet they can't provide one!

Yuri.
 

AndyBees

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Southeast Kentucky
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Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Well, as someone said, "its my turn."

According to my Excel spreadsheet, I have driven my "purchased used" ($14,000 with 45k on it) 2000 Jetta just over 85k. The overall average cost per mile to date is 24.5 cents. That is for 99.9999% of every cent I have spent on the car ..... from initial cost, taxes, insurance, fuel, general maintenance and yes the windshield washer fluid.

Net cost per mile is 13.01 cents .....
 

Blondee

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Canada
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Jetta
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Wow, I guess Blondie don't much care for the TDI. Sorry to hear that, but I do have a few comments...

Tell you what Blondie... if I had the money, and your car had a 5-speed, I'd buy it from you. All that I mentioned above that I enjoy about my TDI, the cherry on top is that its fun to drive also.

Maybe you should bring the car to Ohio and sell it. I've seen 02 GLS TDI's with 60,000 miles going for $17,000 US. I don't think the Civic is doing quite that well in retaining its value. My sis has a Civic and it definitely feels cheaper inside, and the ride is terrible compared to the Jetta.


Actually, I have a buyer for my TDI. However, I am reluctant to sell it. For one thing, I absorbed the most depreciation. So, the *potential* buyer would gain and if I sold it. I would only get about $1000 in my pocket after paying off VW credit .

I would have to buy new again because no matter how I choose a used car and get it professionally checked out, I get MAJOR unexpected issues. So, I need to buy new. If I bought new, that would set me back another 2.5 years to purchase a home. I would have to start all over again with my monthly payments. I am really stuck between a rock and a hardplace. Besides the economics of owning a TDI (in my case) I feel bad that I cant drive my TDI the way it was meant to be and that we have crappy diesel fuel. But, it looks like I will be an unhappy camper in owning my TDI but at least it will be paid off in 2.5 years. But, in 2 years I will be due for another intake cleaning and lots of $$$. I am already driving my TDI harder and I am really noticing the difference in fuel economy. I used to be able to drive 800 km (city) per tank, now, I am driving 700 because I am shifting close to 4000 rpm. I only drive 15-20 minutes to work each way, so by the time the TDI warms up, I am almost at work.

Just out of curiosity. What year is your sister's Civic? I saw the 2002/2003's and even the base Accord felt cheap.

If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
 

Powder Hound

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Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
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'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

When I bought my car, the price difference between the TDI and the 2.0 gasser was about US$1000. We kicked this topic around a bunch. It is really difficult, if not impossible to compare to other cars, since so many subjective qualities come into play. So, the comparison must be between a 2.0 and a TDI.

Back then, about 4 years ago or so, the general consensus was 100k miles for break even, assuming outrageous dealer pricing for timing belt changes, all other maintenance done per recommended intervals.

Since then, the differing parameters for me have been 50k miles for the TB changes (OK, OK, I'll step up to the 100k belt at 200k), doing maintenance myself. Some issues don't apply, such as my intake has never clogged.

I figure the break even for me was at about 50k miles.

Depreciation doesn't factor in really, because I don't plan on selling my car unless someone puts a gun to my head. Since very few people know where I live, and even fewer care, I need not worry about the gun.

So, everything since 50k has been good, and I figure after 250k miles, it is going to save me another car. It will only get better if I decide to make my own biodiesel.
 

doc_m

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somwhere
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None
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

hey blondee, you must be in vancouver itself because i buy diesel out in aldergrove and it's only 77.9 and the gas is 74.9 so the price difference in negigable seeing as I can go probably twice the distance a gasser could go in thier car. I usually get around 900 or more in my car pretty much mostly city driving. Have done from here to Edmonton on a tank pretty much and that's not even doing close to the limit. Of course if you go to the dealer for anything but a recall or warrenty you will get ripped off. I have a guy here in langley that does very good work for a reasonable price, plus I do alot myself, not being a mechanical type I can only limit myself to certain things. But hey I have almost 160,000 Km on my car since june of 2000 and don;t regtet buying it one bit other than a couple minor things it has treated me very well. Plus the knowledge ya can get from here and the amount of $ is saves more than makes up for the little bit more it cost to get a TDI. I mean really would you actually want to drive a 2.slow?
 

doc_m

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Joined
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somwhere
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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

you also have to consider what you can get on say a GLS TDI compared to others, I don;t bother looking at other vehicles but seems to me alot of others seem kinda plain when ya get in.... just my 2 cents
 

tdi_tim

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Dec 12, 2003
Location
Connecticut
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2004 Jetta Wagon
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Considering that I would never have bought my car with a 2.slow under the hood, I saved money simply by buying the TDI over the 1.8T.

However, I owned a 1.8T Passat before my Jetta. My maintenance cycle was pretty similar (change oil every 10k, filter ever 5k) and I always used synthetic. I usually got between 28 - 32 mpg. Not awful for a gasser.
 

tdipd100

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Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Location
Stillwater Lake, NS, Canada
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2004 Golf GLS TDI Reflex Silver
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I did a cost comparison prior to getting my TDI. For me this was not a comparison of similar car to similar car. I took my "short list" of vehicles - put in my "best deal" monthy payment, estimated fuel cost (with diesel estimated at a few cents less than gas over the long term), insurance, and scheduled maintenance. I also included my current ride (a Jetta 1.8t) as a reference point.

For me the TDI was on top with my typical 25k kms per year.

But - to look a break even doesn't work for me because the TDI was also the cheapest car on my list, and knowing VW's I wouldn't consider a 2.slo at all!

For a reality check - my lifetime average on my 1.8t is 24-25 mpg's of supreme gas (heavy foot:). Figuring conservatively fuel alone for the TDI will be $80 less per month than my 1.8t.

I also had an 8000km service interval on the 1.8t so the more expensive 16000km service interval on the TDI doesn't seem too bad.

As for the other cars on my list... Subaru... low mpg's - and 6000km service intervals - and "worse than VW" service rate.

I did find the Mazda 6 to be apealing from the "numbers" point of view but in the end - I picked the TDI.


Someone said they do but... VW does not have bad resale - according the consumer reports they are still among the best. I paid $26800 for my Jetta 1.8t in 2001. There are several typical mileage used ones around here with asking prices of $18000 - $19000. Even if they sell for 15000-16000, that's great resale.

Last week while waiting at the dealership I heard a chap inquire about a used TDI Jetta GLS 2001 - the asking price was $22000!!!!!!!!!
 

dqa

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2002
Location
Alabama
TDI
RIP: 1999½ New Golf GL TDI satin silver
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

A factor that has not been considered yet is the value of your time. One thing I hate to do is fill the tank, especially if I'm running late. With the TDI, I can take care of this problem when it's convenient for me, not immediately for fear of running out of gas.

The fuel light comes on? I know I need to stop by the fuel station sometime in the next week. More efficient use of time saves real money, as well as improving quality of life.
 

Muggins

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Barrie, Canada
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02 Golf GL 4dr 5spd
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

We're really a bunch of TDI disciples, spreading the good word about improving the quality of life with fewer pit stops. I love it!
 

ruking

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San Jose area, CA
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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I have to say a few of the projections I have made have not come true or to be more specific: way ahead of schedule or expectation. 1. I was expecting 6-15% first year depreciation -1080 to -2700. Instead, I was shocked to find that my 2003 VW Jetta, 1-2 years old, (depending on how you see) it sells for 1000-3000 dollars more than I paid for it new. 2. I was expecting some warranty work, absolutely NONE 3. I was expecting alignment and balance work; again absolutely none and the tires are wearing FAR longer and very evenly, than I even projected (oem "Good" years to boot) 4. fuel mileage is actually getting better 5. Consume able parts last far longer than stated intervals 6. new car delivery had no flaws. 7. insurance premiums are actually way lower than I expected.

It is just amazing to me to take a 606 miles trip and not have to fuel: getting 48 mpg in a 7 hr drive time!!!

Got to love 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 mile oil and oil filter intervals!
 

eli

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Location
I-95
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2017 Cruze stickshift 2019 Terrain
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

the oilchange interval is every 10k miles not every 5k, yes?
it's been a while since my 2003 tdi had 15k miles. i do recall the first oilchange was at 5k, maybe the 3rd one is at 15k... ? in any case , after 20k the interval is 10k miles! happy compression,
 

TDI_04_Driver

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Canada
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Golt TDI, 2004, silver
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Mazda makes very reliable cars. I still have my 1992 MX3 with 260,000Km the car is like new and a 5-speed. I always filled with Chevron 94 octane and did yearly oil changes with Amsoil. The MX3 has great gas mileage with a 5-speed, about 7-8L/100km mostly city driving. I sometimes have passengers in my car and the 2-door MX3 was getting to be a pain plus the back seats were uncomfortable.

I needed another car with 4-doors and an automatic for other family members to drive, plus the gas mileage of the MX3. My sister has a 4-door 2L 2002 Golf GLS that I have driven and liked the roominess of the interior. The only 2 cars I was thinking about were the 2004 Golf TDI and the Mazda 3. Hands-Down the TDI won me over for interior roominess, comfort and the best mileage for an Automatic Tranny Vehicle! I do mostly city driving and just filled the tank and got 6.01L/100Km plus it only has 4000Km on it! Better than my MX3 plus I fill half as often!
 

ruking

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

You are correct of course in stating the recommended oil change intervals of 10,000 miles. If I understand what you are saying, I also changed the oem fill at 5,000 miles MARK and also at the 10,000 mile MARK (5,000 miles between oil changes) Since I am still under warranty to 50,000 miles, I DID/will not give VWA a reason to deny me engine warranty work in the most very remote case that it happens in the next 5,000 miles!
Many other folks have posted UOA's on this site and also others that 10,000,15,000,even 20,000 miles between intervals, are easily do able. Of course if there is any question or doubt an oil analysis/s will clear that up.
 

ofhs93

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Scranton, PA
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Jetta GL, 99.5, Silver
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Going back to the original post on this thread....the numbers that Drexel used are WAY out of line for most of the people on this website....I ALWAYS used Mobil 1 in my 95 2.0(and I think most members would use some sort of Synth in thier gassers as well)...and I use Rotella T Synth in my TDI...so the oil is actually CHEAPER per change for the TDI...not to mention the fact that I change it 3 times less often...and the best mileage I ever got over a tankful with the 2.0 was about 30....my TDI AVERAGES 47-48 over a tankful....let's say that over a year the fuel costs are basically a wash...the TDI payoff is VERY quick for me...especially at 30-40k miles a year of driving not to mention the fun factor over the 2.slow
 

WisTDI

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none now; formerly had an '03 Jetta GLS
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I drove a 2.slow for a loaner while my TDI was getting a new fuel injection pump (under warranty). What a world of difference! If that was the only engine option Jetta offered I would not be drivving a Jetta. Gas mileage was poor.
 

ruking

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

If you are making a general comment, I say yippee yahoo!

If you are addressing me personally, I would say that the real utility of projections is after you buy the thing, you can MEASURE parts of the reality in the decision making process. (does it meet or exceed projections, etc etc., i.e., more importantly: how much? more/less or the usual suspects; who, what, why, where, when, and how?)

So naturally, (using your example) if you do 30/40k miles a year in driving, the real question is why did you even CONSIDER a 2.0?
After the first year the thing is going to cost you 1000 dollars per year more!! Obvious for each year you do 30/40k miles in a year!!

The price of fuel isn't close to a wash?! If you figure it by the fuel price per mile at say 2.21 unleaded (cheaper obviously) vs 2.39 diesel you are now talking .07367 cents vs .04979 or 32% more for unlead fuel, per mile. At the mileage you do (30/40k), you are talking about 1000 dollars per year? (955.20) or 80 dollars a month MORE (79.60)
 

ikendu

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Iowa
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2003 Golf Indigo Blue
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

It will only get better if I decide to make my own biodiesel.
Oh Yeah!


The BEST reason a TDI is better than a gasser!

And... when I bought my 2003 Golf TDI, the TDI option was $1200 more than the gasser. The Kelley Blue book listed the values after 1 year and the TDI was worth $1400 more than the gasser. So...I've been saving money since day 1.

What other car can you drive where you can declare independence with biodiesel from mideast oil and all of the complications thereto (pre-emptive war, roots of terror, nuclear proliferation, ocean pollution, CO2 and global climate change)?

Geez...you can even MAKE your own fuel in the garage if you want to )for 45 cents/gallon.
 

Thunderstruck

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Chicago
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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

It's worth the extra cost to get the warm fuzzy feeling of indirectly giving big oil and dubya the finger.
 

TornadoRed

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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

It's worth the extra cost to get the warm fuzzy feeling of indirectly giving big oil and dubya the finger.
I believe the TDIs are fine vehicles for Republicans and Democrats, capitalists and socialists, green and lefty lunatics or even islamofascists.

Where does this notion arise that the Bush Admin is against diesel-powered vehicles? Or that Big Oil wants to screw its diesel customers?
 

Blondee

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Canada
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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Geez...you can even MAKE your own fuel in the garage if you want to )for 45 cents/gallon.
I dont even have a garage
 

Thunderstruck

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Chicago
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2015 GTI SE 6M
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Because they encourage consumption, not conservation. If they were serious about solving the country's energy problems, they would give incentives for economical vehicles, and alternative sources of energy. Remove the tax on diesel. Remove the tax on ethanol.
Their answer, however, is to spoil the Alaskan wildneress with oil rigs.
 

Powder Hound

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Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

So, let's see. Roads are maintained with fuel taxes, so if any are removed, then how are the roads to be maintained?

There's a bunch more arguments to be made, particularly focusing on the contradictions within your own statement, but this thread is supposed to be about break-even points between the TDI and an equivalent gasser, is it not?
 

PassatTDIinPA

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Joined
Sep 22, 2004
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

I was a bit disappointed to not see anyone's calculation of the 2004.5 Passat TDI's break even point. VW charges a mere $200 +/- more for the Passat TDI than the 1.8T. I own a 2005 Passat TDI. My break even point figuring 26mpg avg (based of a friends 2003 Passat 1.8T average combined) and my 36.2 avg (both figures from the trip computer's overall avererage) will be within 10K miles.

So within the first year I will have broken even. This is a goofy thing to be worried about in the first place. Just enjoy the ride and get on with it.
 

ScottyP5947

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Washington State
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2000 New Beetle
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Where does this notion arise that the Bush Admin is against diesel-powered vehicles? Or that Big Oil wants to screw its diesel customers?
Hmm, I think because his emissions ideals target diesels. Very low NOx regs and not taking into account that there is less co2 created with a diesel.
Scott
 

ruking

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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Essentially it is the same for the Jetta TDI vs the Jetta 1.8T. When I bought mine 2003 TDI, essentially sometime in the first month I broken even against a 1.8T.
 

Thunderstruck

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Chicago
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Re: Gas vs TDI: Calculate your break-even point

Powder's right, let's get back on topic. Scotty, we can start another thread if you want to.
 
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