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Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old July 28th, 2017, 11:48   #1
toneman
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Default Now that the Gen 1 fix is out: Contemplating the Gen 3 for Gen 1 swap

This is to hear folks' thinking about keeping their Gen 1's vs picking up a 2015 2.0 TDI from the warranty standpoint and other considerations. For me, the emissions warranty is a big factor for staying in a TDI. Here's my situation:

My Gen 1:
2011 JSW (manual) with 47k miles
Fix warranty would extend to 2021.5 & 126k miles or 2021 & 111k miles
(plus I get the restitution $ to play with)

Compared to if I got a 2015 with a real example. There's a local S with a manual transmission with 29k miles going for $18,500, certified used (well below my buyback amount).
Fix warranty for the 2015 would extend to 2026 & 162k miles.

I flip/flop but lean toward shorter warranty and the cash. But I might continue the waiting game to see how prices on the 2015s go over the next year.

So the calculus in my head is about 5 years of additional warranty vs. ~$6k in restitution money.

Other considerations is that with the 2015 I would need to lay out cash for window tint, lowered suspension, a new oem roof rack, factory nav, fog lights, and Ed's replica lights to bring it up to spec with my 2011. And then there's the lack of heated seats.
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Old July 28th, 2017, 17:12   #2
GoFaster
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The HPFP situation alone would tip my decision towards the newer model.
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Old July 29th, 2017, 11:04   #3
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That's sort of odd advice, isn't it, since the HPFP is covered under the new warranty?
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Old July 29th, 2017, 11:09   #4
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Check out the news on the gen1 fix. Now it is suppose to be happening. Don't do anything until you check out that info.
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Old July 29th, 2017, 14:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conejo_a_cuatro View Post
That's sort of odd advice, isn't it, since the HPFP is covered under the new warranty?
1. A new Gen 3 will have a longer warranty on it (measured from today/near future) than the extension of the warranty on a "fixed" Gen 1.

2. The Gen 3 uses solenoid injectors with a slightly lower operating pressure (same as Gen 2 - Passat) and the Passat's rate of HPFP self-destructions seems to be lower than that of Gen 1.

3. The original poster's Gen 1 - if the HPFP hasn't already been replaced - is one of the early ones before Bosch started making unannounced/undocumented design changes to them.
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Old July 29th, 2017, 15:21   #6
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Drive a Gen 3 and see what you prefer. I like my MKVII GSW much more than my MKVI Golf, but that's me. You may feel different. Given the relatively low miles on your current car you probably should just keep (or buy) the one you like better.
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Old July 29th, 2017, 15:28   #7
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I like IBW' s advice best. A test drive should give a good idea of what you prefer. If it's a draw after the test drive, I'd stick with the one you have.
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Old July 29th, 2017, 16:46   #8
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A couple things to ponder with this particular decision:

If you're long in the torso like myself, the mk6 has more head room. I kind of like the interior layout a bit better on the mk6 for a couple other minor reasons as well.

The Gen 1 engine is also far simpler with far less potential failure points than the mk7. The exhaust system is even more complicated on the Gen 3, the cooling system is immensely complex with multiple computer controlled flaps as well as an electrically operated sheath to cover the water pump impeller during warm up to help aid making warm up faster--dealer guys have already seen that sheath fail and cause the engine to overheat.

It also has a computer duty cycle controlled variable displacement oil pump, vane style. The intake manifold has an air-water intercooler integrated into it, which is great for preventing intercooler icing like the gen 1s experience, but it makes it far more of a task to service anything under the intake. But hey, at least it no longer has the failure-prone runner flaps the gen 1 does.

The bonus on the Gen 3 is the longer warranty, as you stated, a smidge more power, flatter torque curve that extends higher into the RPM range. It also is not insignificantly more efficient at highway speeds. Where gen 1 engines might average 42-45 MPG, the Gen 3 will knock on the door and even exceed 50 MPG. All that trick cooling system stuff and duty cycle controlled oil pump do help significantly.

The solenoid injectors are also easier to deal with and cheaper than the piezos the gen 1s came with, not that it should matter if you never experience a failure...

From a serviceability standpoint (since I do my own work) and for headroom reasons, I'd personally go for the Gen 1 sportwagen. But that gen 3 is still tempting just for the increased efficiency alone.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 09:07   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toneman View Post
this is to hear folks' thinking about keeping their gen 1's vs picking up a 2015 2.0 tdi from the warranty standpoint and other considerations.



For me, the emissions warranty is a big factor for staying in a tdi. Here's my situation:


2015 gen 3
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Old July 30th, 2017, 09:18   #10
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I have a slight preference for the rounder lines of the mk6. They are both great looking cars imo though.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 16:09   #11
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Great points up there -- thanks.

IBW - a test drive makes sense. The trick is finding a manual nearby. The torque curve is probably what I enjoy most about my car, especially paired with its efficiency.

Matt - super info about the relevant technical differences between Mk6 and Mk7. VW TDIs are a case in point that increased complexity can coincide with increased maintenance/reliability problems. I've had zero problems thus far so maybe I got a good Mk6 that will have a long life. That said, I wish I lived closer to your shop.

But a warranty til 2021 is real security.

Other considerations:

Although my car has less than 50k miles on it, I both got rear-ended and received a front-end minor bump while parked in the past year and a half. I got the rear end fixed and just cashed out for the front end damage while I was waiting to hear about the Gen 1 fix. Accidents have a way making your car feel compromised and buyback is an easy way to move a car with a 2 accident record.

Starting from scratch, mod-wise. On the one hand, it's fun to have a new project, on the other, it will be net more $ spent than if dieselgate never happened. I love the way my car is setup now.





Lastly, rather than saving the $6k in restitution dollars in a rainy day TDI fund, I could use it on home repairs or better yet, rebuilding the 327 in my '67 RS.
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Old July 30th, 2017, 20:14   #12
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Can't say I ever remember seeing a sportwagen with the xenon lights.

Very nice!
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Old August 1st, 2017, 10:22   #13
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Default Gen 3 JSW rear suspension worse?

As I remember back from 2015 when I was deciding if I wanted to buy a 2015 JSW new, the 2015 model went to the cheaper rear suspension used on the Jetta sedan instead of the fully independent rear suspension available on the JSW up to 2014. They kept the fully independent rear on the gasser, so there was speculation that they did this to get room to install the urea tank.

This was a major reason I chose to buy a used 2010 JSW instead in July of 2015. I really LOVED the handling on that car (it might have helped that a previous owner had put GTI wheels and tires on it). Boy was I bummed when the dieselgate scandal broke 2 months after I bought the car. I took the buyback (got lucky and made $5k over my purchase price). I would consider buying a fixed gen1, although I am worried about HPFP problems.

You might want to look into this before you buy the 2015.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 14:33   #14
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I betcha 95+% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in ride and handling between IRS and twist-beam, probably wouldn't even know what to look for, and even in the remaining 5%, it's a non-issue 95+% of the time.

Just take a test drive and see what you think.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 15:20   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
I betcha 95+% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in ride and handling between IRS and twist-beam, probably wouldn't even know what to look for, and even in the remaining 5%, it's a non-issue 95+% of the time.

Just take a test drive and see what you think.
Probably right. Not everyone drives like me

I could DEFINITELY tell the difference with the early mk6 Jetta sedans that got the awful straight beam, though. At least the mk7 is a proper twist beam again, which can deflect quite a lot acting somewhat IRS-like. I have no issue with a well designed twist beam, but that straight beam the early sedans and Beetles got weren't too great riding.
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