Uh oh...drivers window no workie

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Greetings all,

Stopped at a redlight a few minutes ago...girl I knew long ago pulls up beside and signals me to roll down the window...DOH! It was a shallow relationship anyway. And it (the window) was working at lunchtime. I can hear the motor cycling when the button is toggled, but no movement at all. All other electrical components seem to be working...sheesh, and the glovebox latch they ordered hasn't even come in yet from when I bought it last Saturday. On the other hand the stereo now cycles from side A of the cassette to side B every three or four songs...I hope a pattern of behaviour is not emerging.

Question: are '98 TDI Jettas known for electrical gremlins? Glad I bought the extended warranty.

Rick

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The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful
 

Lance Allison

Requiesce In Pace October 20th, 2019
Joined
Jul 28, 1999
Location
Central Illinois
TDI
98 Jetta, Classic Green
Hate to tell you this, but Welcome to the World of VW Electrics. I have a 98 Jetta TDI and here's what problems I've experienced so far...

I've had the same exact problem with 2 of my windows twice. My passenger side rear window just stopped working one day. It was inoperable for several weeks, then just started working again -- for awhile. When it stopped again, I replaced the motor/regulator assembly and it worked for awhile, then stopped again. It is now working fine (knock on wood), though I've done nothing to the "new" motor.

Now, my passenger side front window is doing the same thing. It stopped working out of the blue. Every few days it will work for awhile, then go out for a few weeks. Strange.

When the switch is pressed, you can hear the motor "click" and the interior lights dim ever so slightly, so I know the switch and the electrics are fine.

Also, I was coming home from a trip and the radio locked on a station and kept playing that station when the car was turned off. None of the buttons worked, the cassette and CD players were both dead. Hmm... Once I was ready to intall the new VW radio, I removed the old one, then installed it again, entered the code, and VIOLA!! it worked fine (and has worked since).

If you find a remedy for your window problems, please let me know. I would be very interested to see what the problem is.
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Originally posted by Lance Allison:
Hate to tell you this, but Welcome to the World of VW Electrics. I have a 98 Jetta TDI and here's what problems I've experienced so far...

Yikes! Thanks for the heads-up. The service fellow today said "regulator" too. I'm not sure, but now that you mention it the passenger window may have hesitated last night for a second, too...

I actually believe the other day when I turned the thing off and pulled the key out, the radio kept playing...so that wasn't my imagination


Well, hopefully everything that can go wrong will be ironed out by the extended warranty. Off the subject a bit, I just uncovered the area where I was supposed to find a pollen filter and all I found was a wire mesh which maybe used to have a filter under it? The service fellow tapped danced for a bit and said some 98 Jettas came without one...then he said he would sell me one for 31 bucks! I'm sure hoping this first tank's mileage at least gets close to my expectations...

Rick

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JDaniel

New member
Joined
Aug 16, 2000
Location
Humeston, Iowa, USA
I know exactly what is wrong with your window problems!! The same thing happened to a friend of mine. It turns out that there is a variable speed capacitor built into the limit switch that works in conjunction with the relay that operates the window motor. It turns out that the reason for the inconsistant behavior of the windows is directly related to the rotation of the steering wheel. Believe it or not, the same relay that controls the window motor also controls the automatic cancellation of the turn signals. If the steering wheel is turned to fast, as in jerked for some reason, an electromagnetic sensor in the steering wheel column will send an eroneous signal to the relay. The relay module interrupts this signal incorrectly and transposes the response to the wrong side of the output terminal on the relay "generator", which is really just a series of micro switches. The switches will randomly generate line voltage to one of two additional relays, one for the front two windows, and one for the back two windows. These relays will in turn allow operation of the power windows when the control button is pushed, but only if the proper sequence of electrical signals has been generated by the output terminal, and only if the micro switches happen to be sequenced properly. The good news is that once all the relays, switches, etc. get in sinc they usually stay that way for awhile. The bad news is that once they are out of sinc, it is almost impossible to duplicate the jerking motion on the steering wheel to produce the right affect. Hope this helps out.

P.S. My friend learned by experience that you should not attempt to "duplicate" the motion while driving, it appears to cause considerable concern to the people in the lane next to you, especially if it's a patrolman! Cost him $50 dollars for reckless driving, and he still didn't get the window down. You would think he would learn, but no, the second time was even more embarassing and costly. This time when the pesky window failed to perform, again while driving, he decided to play it safe and pull over and have a go at it. He pulled along the curb next to an elementary school. Sam was alternately jerking the wheel around and bending over to reach the opposite window control and yelling certain obsenities at the now open window (he was trying to get it up)which portrayed the window control system as a small perpetrator of oral sex. Well it just so happens another policeman doing school patrol was oberving this whole spectacle from some distance away, but close enough to hear the obsenity. He immediately rushed to the car and arrested poor Sam for lude behavior and solliciting minors for sexual use, or whatever the legal gargin is. He had a devil of a time explaining this whole thing to the police, but they agreed not to put anything on his record, but fined him $100 for disorderly conduct in a public place.

Sorry this was so long, but I couldn't resist relaying this information to you all.

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2DogMan
2001 - A VW Odesey
Jetta TDI Auto ON ORDER!!
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Originally posted by JDaniel:
I know exactly what is wrong with your window problems!!

Get outa town!!!!!!If you are serious, listen to this...the light just before the window failed? My friend was in the lane in front of me...when I came up behind her, I performed three or four fast passes of the wheel back and forth to shine the lights on her car crazily....not three minutes later was when I tried the window and it didn't work....thats creepy, man, but also a bolt out of the blue. I wonder if that can be remedied some way other than the random factor indicates? This doesn not speak well for certain engineers who decided to combine the relays.

Rick

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The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
JDaniel,

Could you please tell me how this conclusion was reached, and by whom? Were any VW dealerships involved, and was this documented in case they looks at me like I had no nose or something when I tell them this story? Thanks again for the info, too...this may turn out to be one of the weirdest vehicles I've ever owned, hehe. Well, there was that 62 Rambler American...

Rick

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Karl Roenick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 22, 1999
Location
Clifton Park, NY, US
Did you know your windows speak to the ECU? My window was sticking because of the weatherstripping was bent. They fixed it, but it left a code that I found when I read all of them. Maybe you can look there for a clue.
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Hello Karl,

I didn't specifically know, but am not surprised. The obvious question is where to get a code reader for this car...I have only had experience with GM code readers...my luck I will have to insert a probe into the washer fluid to get a reading...

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The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful
 
M

mickey

Guest
If you hear the window lift motor working you have a mechanical problem, not an electrical one. Pull the inside door panels off BOTH front doors. (So you can compare "normal" to "broken".) Odds are a bolt just slipped out or something.

-mickey
 

Karl Roenick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 22, 1999
Location
Clifton Park, NY, US
It could be possible that instead of "up" it is signaling "down".

My ill-informed opinion is that if this stupid stuff is on the CAN bus no wonder guys like HowardZ and garrettp have the locked up ECU's with the dreaded 18048 code.

For a code reader try www.ross-tech.com .
It's still in beta, but not for too long, hopefully. There are some workarounds if it doesn't do everything you want. $200 should do it.
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Greetings all,

JDaniel and others, I have a strange tale to tell. This morning, on the way to work I decided for grins to reprise the way I waggled the car the other night. Didn't have any hopes that it would be just the right way in order to reset back to normal or whatever...I even checked the window seconds before I waggled the car again. Believe it or not, the window immediately began working after I waggled back and forth vigorously three or four times and stopped for the light!!! It has worked all day since then. I am amazed this worked. JDANIEL, you are my hero!

There almost have to be more than two people who have experienced this glitch...

Off the sub., but filled for the first time today...43.3 mpg....looks like I have some work to do before I run with you big dogs, hehe. Course I did run the huey out of it this past week in 100 degree weather and the a/c on all the time. I guess I'll keep it another week.

Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the code reader. I'll probably go that route soon.

Rick

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The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Hi Karl,

I have to plead momentary ignorance of the acronym CAN. The windows have been operating just fine last two days. I am tempted to try to re-create the problem, but it all sounds potentially very arbitrary, so I will refrain. I need the window to get my Biscuit sandwiches in the morning.

I went to your url for the code reader. That sounds extremely interesting. I do not have a laptop computer at present, but can bring home from work, so that may work out. Have you used it yet?

You mentioned posting this situation as an FAQ...perhaps I should try to make it happen again...not thrilled with the prospect, but they told me I may have to "jump on the grenade one day" a long time ago...maybe this is it, hehe.

JDaniel, you still out there? Would still like to know if any VW authorities have acknowledged this odd relay business.

Rick
 

Karl Roenick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 22, 1999
Location
Clifton Park, NY, US
I think SkyPup is the expert on the CAN Bus. It's probably something like "computer auto network". Apparently a lot of stuff is tied into a network in our cars. If the signal gets garbled, things screw up.

The only laptop I have access to is win3.1.
Rick,

Vag-Com needs win95. You can order Uwe's cable and use his beta software, or download a program called vwtool, which will work with the cable, in the meanwhile.

I would leave well enough alone as far a duplicating it. What if the brain freezes up or something?

Karl
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Yo Karl,

I think I am with you on this for the non. If this relay setup is not limited to TDIs, it seems impossible that wheel waggling like this has not been noticed as a cause of window dysfunction. I wish JDaniel would check in and update on how they figured it out.
As sensitive as this whole electrical system seems to be, I just wonder if I should be concerned about operating cell phones and CBs in it, or even FRS radios? I believe I read something somewhere that advised against it..maybe in the manual.
Will check out the intake screen in the morning (oops, off subject). Ya know, I hope the injection timing circuit is separate from any other relays that could cause spurious signals to mingle with proper timing signals...

Rick

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The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful
 

RickyChuck

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Hello all,

I received an email from JDaniel just now. He seemed to indicate he was not serious about the story he volunteered about the problem with my front window giving out after some violent turning of the steering wheel. I don't know if he meant he was joshing about the first part in which he talked about capacitors and relays being related, or if he was talking about the second part, the story of his friend, etc.

I'm confused, and since he appears to live in Iowa, its too far to drive and get to the bottom of it, but in any case the window is still working, so maybe it is connected in spite of his levity in the matter. I think, until this matter is straightened out, Karl, it should not be an FAQ until we know if he is telling the truth or not.

Oh well, to put it in perspective, a huge grass fire burned right up to my fence today...thot I had lost my house, barn, and boat because the heat was too intense to keep spraying water, but a pumper truck made it thru and managed to knock it down before my fence went up...so I really don't care at the moment...I'll never complain about smoke from my Jetta again after all the smoke I breathed today, he he.

Rick

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