Malone Tuning ....Lag Times

Basic settings 011 test, what is the mbar spread?

BuzzKen said:

Basic settings 011 test, what is the mbar spread?

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I will try and get that info this week.

What is it that you're looking to see....or not see?

scrambld said:

I will try and get that info this week.

What is it that you're looking to see....or not see?

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I want to see how your vanes/boost response is. This would be good to see for the above mentioned cr stage 3 as well.

OK, I'll see what I can do.....thxs.

I had the same issue with my BRM after a cam change and long head off period. I changed/check many components, checked timing, pumps, actuators, etc. Spoke and visited gurus. Car started and idled great but lacked low end and ran like a dog below 2500rpm.

The solution was to install a set of used injectors and all problems went away. I figured if new injectors didn't fix it I would just resell them. Good luck, John

its not your tune. Was this a new turbo? did you check the rod adjustment? I have seen many new garret turbos set wrong from the get go.

VWDAVID said:

its not your tune. Was this a new turbo? did you check the rod adjustment? I have seen many new garret turbos set wrong from the get go.

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Yes, a new PD140. That will be checked (haven't yet). But I am getting mixed results about that. I don't know, I would assume it might need an adjustment as it is not the OEM turbo...but more knowledgeable people here say it should pretty much "be spot on" as this turbo was used on a very very similar application. It has been to two very knowledgeable TDI gurus and neither one addressed that potential. But, I will see if I can get the movement checked on that rod.....see how much it takes to actuate.

BuzzKen said:

Basic settings 011 test, what is the mbar spread?

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Ok, we did a few logs and boost request follows boost produced (that is my terminology, again I am not the master at this). But the graphs plotted out on the screen very much overlay each other. Is that what you're looking to see? He said he can't find anything mechanically out of sorts. Again, this was determined by two independent TDI gurus.
So, if actuator rod was in need of adjustments would the plot lines not coincide or would there be a discrepancy between the two. One thing I have been told is that the lag my be from the PD140 being bigger. I don't know for fact but I thought it was similarly sized but way more efficient, so it should spool up just like stock...?

He says if he hears from Malone (IF)....Malone will want him to run some logs and send those files to him for review. Key word here seems to be IF and WHEN Malone wants to respond. I can understand Malone not responding to me, but not responding to one of his "dealers" is beyond me....?

Maybe my original Stg2/stock turbo setup just gave crazy boost...staying just under limp mode form an overboost? I'd like that back

No. At idle go into basic settings, 011 and run the test. Let us know the numbers.

Buzz, Ok, I will update as soon as get back there..it'll be fairly soon as I have to get her in there for some other maintenance. I'll post up some #'s ASAP. Thanks!

BuzzKen said:

I want to see how your vanes/boost response is. This would be good to see for the above mentioned cr stage 3 as well.

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My low was 960 and the high went to 1080. So it's within range. I had a fault for something about the turbo boost regulator, but the freeze frame was at 0 rpm so I was like huh? Mark said he was going to update my tune to increase fuelling at low rpm to help wake the turbo up sooner and also fix my low numbers for low end torque.. I consistently hit around 297 tq without fail over 7 runs while stage 2. And with the turbo upgrade I've hit 307 once and it floated between 265-285 over 7 other runs. Same dyno too.. I even had them use their other dyno (a dynojet) and it gave the same results as the one I had always used since the beginning. My HP I'm fine with, almost 190 when at stage 2 was at like 165 or so. He said he was going to up the HP in the upper end as well. I smoke pretty good most of the time. It's not a brief puff of black like some claim. I can literally roal coal sometimes.. Sometimes it is indeed a brief one.

Ask your tuner if they changed the open loop control maps in the ecm for the new turbo. The open loop maps provide the base setting for vane position in all modes, then the closed loop governing (PID control) is added/subtracted from those base values. If the open loop maps are not optimized it will dramatically affect turbo response. Since you changed to an aftermarket turbo, the open loop maps need to be recalibrated to have the system working well.

This thread makes my head explode every time I look at it. I just read your thread for the most part - you went from a failing actuator symptom to a new turbo and had the same symptom but it sounds like you haven't really checked anything else - you need to verify that the new turbo actuator is set right - they just slap those things on at the factory and don't care how they're set. Secondly, as far as I can tell you haven't verified that your vacuum pump even works. You also need to verify your N75 works. There are so many possible problems that you're ignoring. Also sounds like you haven't verified your entire vacuum system is free of leaks. All of these things will cause this problem. You also must acknowledge that a larger turbo will take more time to spool - especially compared to a BRM turbo which is absolutely tiny.

Hook up a vacuum gauge directly to the vacuum pump, start the car. Vacuum should instantly go to -29in-hg, or very close. It should get to -29 almost instantly, shut off the engine, it should hold -29 for a long time.

If that works, hook your vacuum gauge up in between the N75 and the turbo. Start the car, it should read -29in-hg again, just as rapidly. It might be as low as -22ish, but still it should go there rapidly, blip the pedal and it will move around. Go for a drive and watch the gauge, while cruising it'll read ~-8 to -10in-hg. While trying to make boost it will read as low as -29in-hg.


GDE - yes Malone knows how to write a tune and write a proper N75 feedforward map for a different turbo. There are quite a few TDI's with this exact same tune on it and they are working fine.

JFettig said:

..... you went from a failing actuator symptom to a new turbo and had the same symptom but it sounds like you haven't really checked anything else - you need to verify that the new turbo actuator is set right - they just slap those things on at the factory and don't care how they're set. Secondly, as far as I can tell you haven't verified that your vacuum pump even works. You also need to verify your N75 works. There are so many possible problems that you're ignoring. Also sounds like you haven't verified your entire vacuum system is free of leaks. All of these things will cause this problem. You also must acknowledge that a larger turbo will take more time to spool - especially compared to a BRM turbo which is absolutely tiny.

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Actually, I believe the two shops I had it at checked things over in regards to the issue...both of them. I should add for clarity that Kraftwerks did not find any leaks pertaining to the vacc system and EGR (as that can also be a source for this problem as I understand it). I would assume they checked the vacc pump, N75, and anything else related to vaccum and turbo actuator. Did they check the rod adjustment? I am not 100% sure. I had mentioned that possibility as we discussed the issue on the day I dropped it off. They never mentioned checking it specifically when I picked it up and I never asked about it specifically.

JFettig, I appreciate your input. I was very surprised that the car responded in a similar fashion pre/post turbo swap.....which as I said above leads me to believe something else is wrong and may have been the issue all along (before new $$ turbo).

I will be taking this info with me next Weds 5/6, as Malone sent him (installer) an updated tune with a bit more fuel and a little more boost to help cover the low end. Before uploading the new tune I will have the above items checked over....maybe again. It's going back to my local TDI guru.

As far as the PD140 being larger. As I understand it, it's not really larger it is just more efficient. Now, that is how I have heard it explained in the past. So, shouldn't the PD140 spool up fairly similar to the BRM turbo? Thanks for the info on what lead to take next week when I take it in.

I am done here.....nothing to update.

Today picked up car from shop. He checked out some things....N75, vacuum system all checks out.....the actuator begins to move at 4-5" of vac......18" to the actuator...actuator needs 17" to pull for full boost.

Basic 011 test at idle. Well, I asked a couple times and no info. Sorry no info to report.

I am jealous of all you happy PD140 owners. I should have just stuck with Stg2 and a stock replacement turbo. I now have a gasoline responsive TDI....meaning I have gas car power and TQ coming in at 2500rpm's....lost my diesel lowend TQ....everything a diesel should be.

I wish I had the time and ambition to drive 1/2 way across the country to go to a PERFORMANCE tdi guru....I am done with the ones in MA.

EDIT: Malone re-tune...seats of the pants dyno. Maybe?....maybe??? a bit sooner response as he brought the boost in sooner and added more fuel....well, at least it rolls coal now. And like every other coal roller, I'm not impressed.

For those that say the PD140 will lag like this and this is how they are........Anyone interested in a slightly used PD140? I'll go back to a stock BRM turbo.....with the now 3bar MAP and Stg? Malone that's in it now.....Hmm, I wonder how she'll respond then?

I did the exact same upgrade due to a failing actuator and my car is still a POS. My old ALH jetta with a slight upgrade in nozzles pulled harder and drove faster with no tune.

All my brm's work mint.

Well with a malone stage 4, dynamic idle and a 3 bar map sensor along with a Pd140 turbo, I was hoping for something really awesome, but something isn't right. No pull or boost untill rpms are high and this and that. I'm at a loss and don't know what to do.

BuzzKen said:

Basic settings 011 test, what is the mbar spread?

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Sorry for the delay...my guru checked it and it was 120 spread....he turned the stop screw and got it to 80.

No change with issue. Frustrated, I unplugged the MAF sensor and it ran NO different so I replaced it with a new OEM unit for ID.......runs the same. I am at a complete loss. I may try another expert......


BC, I am with you.....

Since the original issue appeared, NOTHING has changed the way it responds.....NOTHING! Not the PD140/3bar MAP/Stg4 tune, 4 tune updates, EGR block off plate to eliminate leak/failure, bypassing the N75 putting full vac to turbo and driving it, checking actuator rod...moves at 4mmHg, adjusting stop screw for spread per basic setting 011 test, New MAF sensor, taking it to Kraftwerks, he agreed a PD140 should NOT be that weak...but he found nothing wrong.

So, could she just be tired? Weak compression? I plan to try one more local forum guru and if not MIGHT try one more Guru in Pembroke, MA....and if he can't work some magic I am going to throw in the towel..not sure if I can justify a 2 hour drive, drop off, wait a few days, drive 2 hours for a pick-up for the unknown result...if it is back the way it SHOULD be then yes...it's worth it to me.. That is not like me though, not to find out the what and why.......I doubt I will give in!

Sorry to hear all that trouble scrambld, I know how frustrating car problems can be especially if you really like the car. Curious though, do you happen to have an exhaust leak? I must confess something... especially to Malone and my vendor Buzzken, but when I installed my turbo, I didn't put the plug back into the boost port..... so my car would run awesome in high rpms but not in low and it had some fumes in the cab. My mechanic figured it out, and the car instantly ran like a frigging top and boosted like a beast from low rpms. (as of 2 hours ago) It could be something simple like that maybe? And yes, I feel rather stupid. I didn't need to adjust the actuator at all on the PD140. Dont give up I think you'll figure it out.

Exhaust leak? I don't think so....no odor (as I did when my EGR cooler failed...kind a liked it though) and no sounds of exhaust leak. Really it runs and idles fine.....unless you want some power out of it. Before the issue it was a freakin rocket with JUST the Stg2 Malone. It then developed this issue and no matter what was thrown at it or WHO looked at it.....it's the same lazy *****!

scrambld said:

Exhaust leak? I don't think so....no odor (as I did when my EGR cooler failed...kind a liked it though) and no sounds of exhaust leak. Really it runs and idles fine.....unless you want some power out of it. Before the issue it was a freakin rocket with JUST the Stg2 Malone. It then developed this issue and no matter what was thrown at it or WHO looked at it.....it's the same lazy *****!

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Inspect the Turbo inlet pipe for cracks and inspect the turbine for damage and feel that it spins freely. I'm not sure what year it started, but on a CR TDI, a cracked inlet pipe will allow air in post-maf and if the MAF isn't reading air passing, the car responds as if air is not available, makes the car a complete dog.

AAR, thanks....mine is a BRM with a new PD140. I will check the inlet. But again, I don't hear anything weird....would I?

scrambld said:

AAR, thanks....mine is a BRM with a new PD140. I will check the inlet. But again, I don't hear anything weird....would I?

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I don't think you would hear anything, it would be an air vacuum

Is your lift pump working?

AARodriguez Corp. said:

Is your lift pump working?

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I've been asked that before....

I assume so or I assume the shops it's been at would have checked that? I get a power surge above ~2000rpm's...although weaker than it used to be before the issue. Would a failing/weak lift pump be worse at higher rpm's vs. lower...when more fuel is needed? Again, she's pretty lazy down low (that awesome low end [1400rpm and up] pull is gone) and then surges at about 2000 but again....weaker than I recall her being. This car used to impress me...no longer (for a 1.9 TDI that, she was a little beast).

Picture this: accelerate hard and every shift (5sp) if R's drop below 2500 and you leave your foot in it while accelerating...she's lazy until you get above 2200ish...with every shift..


An old post from you AAR: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=354237

So maybe not a bad pump? IDK?....

Lift the back seat on the passenger side, turn the key to the on position, do you hear the pump?

^^^

AAR, I will have some time on Monday to check that out. Again though, wouldn't it get WEAKER with more revs if it a bad lift pump....I am picturing not enough fuel delivery...No? It is the other way around...weak bottom end and then a surge at 2200ish rpm...and that surge isn't even as impressive as it once was. ...it never surged at all, it was just an intense rush of power. Thanks for the leads.....


This may be a hint or lead though. On take off underload ie: AC on or steep hills, etc. it is way easy to stall <<< It's not me as I've been driving this very car for over 160K miles Even with a jack rabbit start she slightly dies (bogs) then recovers....if it a carb'd car I would explain it as poor throttle response or throttle tip in...as in a Holley with a weak accelerator pump shot.

OK, I couldn't wait. I went out and had someone in the car turn the key to on while I was outside by the pass. rear door. I could hear a hum for approx. 5 seconds...is that what I should be hearing?

Wow this has been going for a long time. I have a Malone tune and it is awesome although I had similar issues lower power below 2000 to 2500 and then it went like a scalded cat. Much like the turbos from years ago which had a lag problem. Anyway the problem was the N75 Vacuum line was not plugged in.
Later I had leak in the EGR delete and it was down on power and smoked when I tipped in. Fixed the leak and all was good.
When my lift pump failed it would sound like it was running but apparently not all the time. You should be able to hear the fuel filter fill if has been sitting while as well. Although this never caused a low power issue just a total no power when it finally went .
Just saying this may well be something other than the tune.

Yes, a very long time and this is my daily driver so no daily running issues at all. When time and availability permit it goes to the shop (two so far) to see if they can figure it out. So, that ads to the length of time the issue survives. Am considering a 3rd shop local but would also consider a more "in tune" shop....although that is at a distance which involves hassles with to and from transportation of which you can imagine.....it's most likely not 1 day looksee......

Again....This is NOT the tune....4 tunes= SAME

N75 was bypassed...full vac, to turbo = SAME
EGR blocked off to eliminate that as a problem = SAME


So, to quickly reiterate. Stg2 Malone.....AWESOME anywhere from about 1400ish and up, no need to downshift to pass. Just flat out roll on response available...anytime, anywhere, any place.....no need to think about it.

Issue evolved.
New PD140, Stg4, and 3bar MAP = same issue

Taken to two TDI gurus = SAME and nothing wrong found.

So, lift pump....I equate to a bad fuel pump. Most likely showing a weakness developing with higher rpm's...not being weak down low and getting stronger....No?

EDIT: So, I am thinking the ORIGINAL issue is still present. That is my guess.