GoFaster
Moderator at Large
NOx combines with hydrocarbons in the presence of UV light (sunlight) to produce smog ... that's particulate matter ... that's why you can see it!
The current light duty car regulations on diesels are ridiculously over zealous compared to the minimal impact, with the few of these that exist they cannot have any impact on actual air quality.....Most California voters are pleased with our state's clean air requirements and are willing to pay the costs. Plain and simple.
Your comment about paid off scientists is really childish.
I was curious about truly how inequitable the EPA tier 1 (2003 requirements) to tier 2 (2009 requirements) were to diesels vs gas cars, and so I looked up all of the spec's for the requirements and quantified it (with a graph to boot). CO literally didn't have to decrease at all, and the NOx for the types of cars we drive had to be reduced to 5% of their previously allowed levels. It is ridiculous how specifically targeted small diesel engines are by the EPA.Set ridiculous laws, expect them to get broken. New 10MPG ford raptor, legal 50 mpg TDI not legal.
If they would just pull back on the NOx requirement, we could get much more clean burning efficient diesels. They did it because they knew it would cause diesels to be pushed off the road.
What about gassers and their ultra-fine PM, EPA, CARB just sticks their head in the sand and pretends it does not exist.
They didn't try hard enough. Other automakers were able to meet the diesel standards, so it isn't impossible to do. As a result of VW's poor judgement, tdi's are gone from this market and probably going away completely years before they would have otherwise.I commend VW along with any other auto make who at least tried to meet these stupid rediculious current auto class light duty diesel emissions limit's!!!!
actually, every auto make who has tried to meet these stupid regs with a small engine has run into some trouble....and for the time when these were first introduced no one, not a single auto maker could make their cars pass.....Mazda tried & failed......It took GM several years to get a car with a small engine to pass...BMW & MB took several more years to come up with a scheme that would work, one that only worked on larger more expensive diesel engines...They didn't try hard enough. Other automakers were able to meet the diesel standards, so it isn't impossible to do. As a result of VW's poor judgement, tdi's are gone from this market and probably going away completely years before they would have otherwise.I commend VW along with any other auto makers who at least tried to meet these stupid rediculious current auto class light duty diesel emissions limit's!!!! Oh yeah, during this time frame no one else was able to meet the regs with a 2.0 engine without urea!
Except for the fact they didn't, neither one of them made a 2 liter anything diesel for the us market during the time frame I'm speaking of and all of the offerings today come with urea, which was not certified to be used in the auto class with these designs until after VW had already introduced their 2 liter, which used the systems they used.BMW made a 2 L common rail tdi that met the regs without cheating. So did GM. VW could have as well. Instead, they chose to cheat and deceive in order to save a pittance in licensing and production costs. And it certainly came back to bite them. No amount of polishing is going to put a shine on the turd that is dieselgate.
Not 2 liter engines, but BMW and Mercedes both had EPA approved diesels in North America at that time, all using Adblue. VW and Mazda didn't want to use Adblue in their smaller engines, and, as we've now learned, couldn't meet regulations without it. Mazda chose to not sell a diesel here, VW chose to cheat. And they also chose not to meet regulations with the 3 liter engines with Adblue, even though competing 3 liters were meeting them with similar power and economy. Think what you want of that.If you look back into 2007 & 2008 when the first generations of this engine were tested & certified, no one else was even trying because no one thought the regs could be met with the tech that existed during this time....the scheme VWAG came up with in the time it was come up with was the only way they could actually pass the regs at the time and have the emissions last any time!
While these auto makes had special models which were widely shown around the world, most if not all of those never saw the light of day here when it comes for being certified & sold here in the US/Canada market untill after ~2011.....some 5 years after the time VWAG was working on, durability testing and certifying the 2.oL TDI-CR's for sale in the US & Canadian markets.Not 2 liter engines, but BMW and Mercedes both had EPA approved diesels in North America at that time, all using Adblue. VW and Mazda didn't want to use Adblue in their smaller engines, and, as we've now learned, couldn't meet regulations without it. Mazda chose to not sell a diesel here, VW chose to cheat. And they also chose not to meet regulations with the 3 liter engines with Adblue, even though competing 3 liters were meeting them with similar power and economy. Think what you want of that.
The other current BMW or Chevy diesel offerings did not go on sale until ~2012 after urea use was finally acceptable for use here by the epa & CARB and these makes had not been sold with diesel engine's in any vehicles here since 1985 MY.....Daimler has some things going on. New materials might be the solution. Low sulphur diesel is already provided at some places in the US. The third generation of CommonRail will provide such high peak firing pressure that CGI will be needed in the engine. The fuel will be fully used at that high pressure and the tailpipe-emissions will be very low.
During November ABB will start to upgrade the Mannheim foundry so they can produce "magnesiumtreated iron for truckengines " late in 2002. Further details are not disclosed for competetive reasons..
So what is going on ?
Plans for the future:
Mercedes-Benz DI diesel 2003. New family to fit in between current 2.9 and 4.2-litre engines.
Mercedes-Benz 2.9, 3.2 DI diesel Common rail diesel engines for use in light truck applications.
Mercedes-Benz V10 DI diesel New engine under development, related to existing V8?
Mercedes-Benz 3.2 V6 DI diesel 2004 Vee version of existing in-line 6 engine, to enable production on V6/V8 line.
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DaimlerChrysler eyes CGI for blocks
DETROIT, Dec. 23 1999 -- In Stuttgart, Germany, DaimlerChrysler AG is making plans to use compacted graphite iron (CGI) in some major components of its diesel and gasoline engines starting in 2002.
A proprietary CGI parts-casting process will be established in a DaimlerChrysler foundry in Mannheim, and the first products of the process are expected to be lightweight iron blocks or heads.
The German builder of luxury cars and trucks wants to continue using iron in its engines, but at less of a weight penalty than normal, and CGI parts are seen as a way of accomplishing this.
.---
In May 1999 Daimler wrote:
The innovative strength of the Center of Competence Foundry is proven by
the advanced material CGI - cast iron with compacted graphite. This
material was cast for the first time by the Center of Competence Foundry in small series for cylinder blocks and cylinder heads.
This high-tech material is characterized by greater strength. It can endure higher peak combustion pressures, which results in the higher power output of diesel engines. CGI is being currently tested on European race tracks.
Last year it was used for cylinder blocks in the successful Mercedes-Benz race trucks, but now is being also used for cylinder heads which are even more complex.
The high load-bearing capacity is now proving its worth under the extreme conditions on race tracks. At the same time, less material is required which leads to a considerable weight saving.
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In July 2001 this news was found.
DaimlerChrysler Upgrades Mannheim Works
DaimlerChrysler, under an upgrading scheme for the existing medium-high frequency crucible induction furnace installation in their Mannheim works, placed an order with ABB Automation Systems GmbH, Eschborn, Germany, for a 12 MT crucible furnace and a 9,300 kW / 250 Hz medium-frequency power supply designed to melt base iron to produce magnesium-treated cast iron.
The contract also includes a channel induction furnace of 135 MT useful capacity which is adapted to hold and superheat the base iron, as well as two induction-heated ladle furnaces to be installed at flask molding units to cast magnesium-treated iron needed to produce castings for lorry engines.
The equipment will be supplied in partial-package deliveries during the period from November 2001 to November 2002.
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I asked ABB/Daimler by mail if the intention was to make the new Hightech CGI after the upgrade.
This was the answer given from ABB/Daimler---
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Dear Mr. xxx
Thank you for your question and your interest in our activities.
ABB and DaimlerChrysler signed a contract were all information about the production process itself are confidential.ABB is therefore not allowed to give you the requested information and cannot give further comments other than stated in the press release.
Sorry, we cannot provide further details.
---
Still TOP SECRET
If you are more interested You will find some useful information at the following link
Diesel Net
[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Willy den store ]</p>
I think you missed a few models.While these auto makes had special models which were widely shown around the world, most if not all of those never saw the light of day here when it comes for being certified & sold here in the US/Canada market untill after ~2011.....some 5 years after the time VWAG was working on, durability testing and certifying the 2.oL TDI-CR's for sale in the US & Canadian markets.
The other current BMW or Chevy diesel offerings did not go on sale until ~2012 after urea use was finally acceptable for use here by the epa & CARB and these makes had not been sold with diesel engine's in any vehicles here since 1985 MY.....
I agree, but in the 1980s they allowed the loophole class to be misused for auto class offerings which gave back a lot of the gains gotten over the previous 20 years. Instead of dealing with the real culprits that caused pollution issues of today, the epa & carb let this clearly illegal use if you look at the original law passed in 1982 which created the loophole class for industrial use only failed to enforce that law!Turbo and Rotary, good debate.
The real success of EPA/carb is visibly cleaner air in most cities in Canada and USA since the inception of emissions controls on motor vehicles powered by gasoline engines starting and improved on since the 1970's
how about a few numbers on how many of these were actually sold here?? how much did they cost compared to the one other make, VWAG who tried to at least offer a diesel option here?????I think you missed a few models.
Depending on the application, Mercedes transitioned to Adblue use in '07 or '08 in all diesels. Jeep didn't use it. BMW always had Adblue.
- Mercedes E320 CDI with the OM648 inline 6 from '06 - 08
- Mercedes E350 CDI with the OM642 from '09-15
- Mercedes R-Class, GL, and ML with the OM642 from '07 on
- BMW 335d and X5d with the M57 engine from '09-11
- Jeep Liberty with a 2.8L VM Motori engine in '05-'06
- Jeep Grand Cherokee with a Mercedes OM642 in '07-'08
And because they have different standards, I haven't included the Dodge/Freightliner/Mercedes Sprinters with the OM612 and OM642 engines.
These vehicles didn't sell in large numbers, but there were developed, tested, and certified during the same time period as VW's 2.0L common rail engines were brought to market.
VW tested the PDs & the CRs in the Denver area out a Porsche dealer trying to get the small displacement TDI offerings to pass the e-test & have a e-system that would last the required lifespan, I talked to one of the guys who told me of the resistance they were getting on trying to get the epa & carb to go along with all the driver involved emissions options for certification of the 09 MY CRs(the epa & carb did not want urea use in the auto class during this time). Any discussion of this has to consider these facts if it is going to be discussed in a relevant to really based during this time matter...I shared these vehicles because they have drivetrains that met EPA standards in '08/'09 using Adblue. Doesn't matter what they cost or how many sold. I have numbers, but not here. I can tell you it's enough for us to run an active parts business supporting these vehicles alongside VWs.
VW elected not to use adblue. Their claim (as shared by the VW engineer who attended the '07 Montreal TDIFest) was that they didn't want to have meeting standards dependent on customers refilling the Adblue tank. Or perhaps it was cost. Perhaps it was arrogance, just like the arrogance that caused them to use the PD injection strategy because they didn't want to license common rail technology from Bosch. Whatever it was, they failed. And got caught.
The passat getting that change was mainly due to two facts, first the epa & carb by this point as I stated signed off on useful urea use rules in late 2010 in regular priced auto class offerings. and the fact that vwag knew that without the use of this in the larger heavier passat with the power the car needed for sale here they could not get the reliability they needed in emissions equipment without urea use.So you were told that the EPA and CARB didn't want VW to use Adblue in their 4 cylinder cars? Engineers and VW reps I spoke to at that time said it was their preference, and that they were proud of meeting standards without urea (if only we knew).
And VW didn't use urea in 4 cylinder TDIs in NA until '15. If what you were told was true, why did they continue to build the CJAA engine in '12-14 without urea?
And also, why does the CKRA engine in the Passat, using urea, not meet EPA standards, even after a fix?
Finally, all cars I know of that use urea (including VWs) won't restart at some point if you fail to refill the tank. So compliance really isn't an issue.
??really??? you are comparing a multiple turbo offering from BMW engine which costs almost double what the vwag offering costs??Perhaps. But even long after the transition to urea use, VW was building 2.0L cars that didn't meet EPA standards. And BMW's 2.0L engine does (in the 328d and X3). Additionally, even the "fixed" 15s with urea only meet a higher emissions threshold than they were originally supposed to be certified to meet, and may require hardware replacement during the emissions mileage period to meet this higher threshold.
I'm not disputing any of what you're asserting, I'm just saying that regardless VW made a product that failed standards, hid it, and continued to do so long after at least one competitor was meeting the standard with the same displacement engine.
I don't agree with some of the penalties that VW has been subjected to in this scandal. And I have a bigger stake in the outcome of this series of events than most. However, I do feel that VW has been arrogant, lazy, and dishonest in how they've engineered, marketed, and tested their cars. It's disappointing, to say the least.
We have a result of public hangings of VWAG carried across the US & Canada media for what reason..?..no syndrome here....just the facts,,,...''There are some true believers here (possibly suffering from Stockholm Syndrome) who will probably never see the error of VW's ways. That's fine- fight the power! Whether we see what they did as right or wrong, the end result is pretty obvious.