2002 Golf IP Timing Question

Tried to adjust the IP pump timing on fellow TDiclub'r Munly who has a 2002 ALH. VCDS said that the timing was retarded at a value of 38 using the TDI timing graph in the latest VCDS app.

Adjusted the pump by loosening the 3 bolts on the gear and turning the pump clockwise. Went back and checked and the reported value was still 38. Tried moving the bolt again a bit more clockwise and value stayed at 38.

Tried turning the bolt counterclockwise and checked again and still 38. Tried a bigger bump clockwise and still 38. 4 different IP gear adjustments and all with the same reading.

No apparent issues otherwise but Munly says that fuel economy hasn't been the best. No check engine light was on.

Recent and only upgrades are .216 nozzles and a stage 3 tune from Malone. as well as a race pipe and EGR delete.

The car seems to run fine with good power but the lack of knowing where the IP timing concerns us.

The original thread which talked about issues Munly had with the nozzles can be found here. I don't see any reason why the tune or nozzles would effect the IP timing readings.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=483803

Additional info is fuel temp around 109-110.

Beats me but this will get you to the top of the page.

I hate to ask but the shaft is actually moving relative to the sprocket?

The 22mm nut and shaft appeared to turn correctly along with the 3 small bolts.

It runs fine but the pump timing is unknown at this point.

I think I will check the app and timing checker app on my ALH and see if the problem is software related as the mechanical parts appear to be fine.

You have to reset the VCDS program connection, engine controller, BASIC SETTINGS every time the engine is turned off for more than a second or two. Make sure the little hash mark in the upper left corner is spinning when checking the timing. That means that the VCDS program is active and communicating with the ECU.

After the second try, we unplugged the cable, turned off the app, shut the car off and waited a bit longer.

Then fired it all back up and reconnected to the ECU.

I thought it was stuck on the previous screen but when I selected cloud on the Timing Checker app it could see that the fuel temp was changing between 109 and 110. The engine temp was a bit low on our first try but by the last few it was hot enough.

I just updated the VCDS program yesterday to 17.8.1. Maybe I should just wipe out the entire app and start over?

Did you notice a differance in engine sound or starting ability when you made the changes......if not you obviously were not changing anything.

Just as a note. This morning driving to work I got a check engine light. The car has no power...seems to be in limp mode. Engine sounds rough, a little louder than usual. When we first scanned for codes we got a needle lift sensor code. I'm not sure how long this code has been present because there was no check engine light. I don't know if these are related. Is it possible the timing is too far advanced throwing the car into limp mode?

munly said:

Just as a note. This morning driving to work I got a check engine light. The car has no power...seems to be in limp mode. Engine sounds rough, a little louder than usual. When we first scanned for codes we got a needle lift sensor code. I'm not sure how long this code has been present because there was no check engine light. I don't know if these are related. Is it possible the timing is too far advanced throwing the car into limp mode?

Click to expand...

Yes, moving the IP timing using those three bolts can have a huge effect on the car.

What was strange though was physically adjusting the timing and seeing no change on the Ross tech program. Perhaps the timing is too advanced and the Ross tech isn't detecting it.

IIRC, having a needle lift sensor code could be part of the problem. If the ECU is having trouble picking up the "timing" from the #3 injector, that may be why you are not seing the changes coming up in VCDS.

^^Yep, that should be it^^
If out of range it will read like 255.

For sure, changing the timing ought to provoke a change in how the engine runs/sounds.

I'd look to plug VCDS into another car if I had doubts about VCDS working.

Not sure if the needle lift sensor being bad shows up in an ohm test, but I believe an acceptable range is 80 to 120 ohms. Might be worth a quick check there. BUT...

Wonder if this injector has been at the core of the problems all along. Kind of thinking so... kind of sucks, but I figure getting this resolved will end up putting this ALL in the past.

I seem to recall reading in a VW publication that if the needle lift sensor fails the limp mode is to use the crank position sensor.

That might splain why no indication of adjustment on the graph if it is looking at data from the #3.

But why no error from VCDS?

I'd suspect the wiring before the injector itself.

Ok. So I'll explain everything to the best of my ability. I'm not a mechanic by any means. I have little experience diagnosing engine issues. I've been slowly learning about my car over the past year. So if any of these questions or comments are "stupid" please excuse my ignorance.

With the help from PB_NB we returned the mechanical timing to roughly the same position and returned the IQ to 2.8ish. These were the settings before adjustments and I have been driving the car like this since the tune and nozzles (3 weeks or so).

Before adjusting any settings we scanned the car for codes and had the needle lift sensor code. There was no check engine light. I'm not sure how long this code has been present. Owain never mentioned it when he installed the tune. Its possible it may have occurred afterwards...or possibly it has always been present and I've been driving the car with this code for some time.

As described earlier we mechanically adjusted the timing but the VCDS did not show any change. It remained at 38. We also put the IQ around 4. I drove the car like this for a day. And as I mentioned the car had no power, a check engine light, and flashing glow plug light. The car was scanned for codes again and the needle lift sensor code was present. As I said we reset everything the way it was and the check engine went away but the code remained. I drove the car today to work. It seemed fine.

At work today I did a little testing with a multi meter. I'm no electrical expert, perhaps someone can offer some imput. On the injector side of the electrical connection I got a reading of 96 ohms. One the other side (wiring harness/female connection) I got something like 4000 ohms.

Question 1 - does the 96 ohm reading mean the injector is functioning properly?
Question 2 - does the 4000 ohm reading on the female side indicate a problem?

Lastly, on the female connection there is a grey and a blue wire. I think the grey has minute abrasion though the outer sheath, exposing the wires. Also, there is a black (I assume ground wire) that is cut. There are three wires coming from the main wiring harness. The blue, the grey and the black. There was another member with a similar wiring issue but he never did a definitive answer as to where this black wire belongs.

Question 3 - Is it possible that the exposed wire is the root of this needle lift sensor code?
Question 4 - What is the proper way to cut and splice in a new wire?
Question 5 - Does the fact that the ECU has the needle lift sensor code keep it from recognizing a mechanical timing adjustment (Is the timing set at 38 a default setting)?

AAAAAnd I'm done. Thanks.

96 ohms would suggest that the #3 injector is electrically in spec. Not sure about any possible mechanical issues.

IF you find abrasions in the wire to that injector I'd think that you could very well have found your problem. It's not all that uncommon (and it's only becoming more common as these cars age) that there is some breakdown in the wiring. I think that you'll be best served to expose that wire as much as you can (most susceptible points would be in unsupported areas and the as they become anchored to a fixed part- transition). Maybe someone can find the end point (ECU) and you could then test end-to-end, but if you are seeing a frayed wire I'm thinking that that needs to be dealt with regardless.

If the ECU is responding by going in to limp more then cycling the ignition ought to reset (until the wire flexes and again drops proper continuity).

one thing i forgot to mention...the car started and idled fine with the number three injector unplugged.

munly said:

one thing i forgot to mention...the car started and idled fine with the number three injector unplugged.

Click to expand...

Sounds like the sensor is bad.
Don't know if I would trust repairing the bare wire if the spot is by the sensor and with engine vibrations.

munly said:

one thing i forgot to mention...the car started and idled fine with the number three injector unplugged.

Click to expand...

That seems to bear out what I mentioned about the bad needle lift sensor limp mode.

I tend to agree with wonneber that the needle lift sensor is bad or at least that circuit is bad.

I don't suppose you have a spare #3 injector or a someone to borrow from. It's an expensive part to replace without knowing for sure.

Reading Post #15 it seems you simply need to sort out that wiring and go from there (timing).

Years ago I had a bad needle lift sensor and the only symptoms I had was weak power, ie. limp mode. It worked fine in every other aspects but it struggled to get up to speed. I didn't face in a cold weather scenarios by the time I replaced the bad injector so i have no knowledge if that would have presented itself.

jokila said:

Years ago I had a bad needle lift sensor and the only symptoms I had was weak power, ie. limp mode. It worked fine in every other aspects but it struggled to get up to speed. I didn't face in a cold weather scenarios by the time I replaced the bad injector so i have no knowledge if that would have presented itself.

Click to expand...

Sure sounds like what munly described back in Post#8

Just an update. I bought a used #3 injector from a wrecker. I had NW Diesel calibrate and install it in replace of the faulty injector (needle lift sensor fault). Then with the help of PB_NB we were able to adjust the timing with the VCDS program. So I assume a faulty #3 injector will not let you adjust the timing?

Either way, my car seems to be okay. No issues or check engine light returned as I went for a couple hour drive. Hopefully this is the end of the fuel injection issues...as this has been going on for over a month now.

Also, PB_NB had an extra Ross-tech cable, so I purchased it. I'm keen to start playing with the program as soon as I find a cheap tablet or laptop (I only have a Mac).

Next issue is my sticky actuator. The grind is infinite.

"So I assume a faulty #3 injector will not let you adjust the timing?"

It's my understanding that the #3 lets the ECU "see" when the injector
fires or pops. The ECU can then regulate the IP as to how much fuel,
and advance, is needed for the accelerator potentiometer input.

There are a number of variables that the ECU takes into consideration ,
heat of fuel, engine, ambient temperature et al. Adjusting the IP mechanically gets it within a certain range, but it's the car's computer
that does most of the fine tuning.

Our "drive by wire" system is remarkable, but it does have the vulnerability of being dependent on the integrity of some pretty
light wire and thin insulation on same. Good to hear you've got
the problem solved!