VW 1.6/1.9 = Dodge 2.5L bellhousing clarifications

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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Jul 10, 2006
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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI

evguy1

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Feb 8, 2014
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Erington, BC, Canada
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2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
Same engine family. The HF was a 4.3L non turbo version of the HE and used in the smaller Isuzu NKR 3 ton trucks. I used a turbo and exhaust manifold off an HE which was used in the larger NPR trucks. We converted over 65 of the NPR trucks to electric and a couple of the NKR's. One of the NKR's had a 2.8L 4JB1-TC engine which I put in my Grand Cherokee and it was an amazing engine with unbelievable fuel mileage. For a 2.8L it would consistently get over 35 MPG and up to 42mpg (for over 10 years), the TDI will not do that for us in the lighter Jeep XJ.
 

IdontownaVW

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Oct 10, 2010
Location
Wilmington DE
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MK1 AHU, Colorado Duramax
Same engine family. The HF was a 4.3L non turbo version of the HE and used in the smaller Isuzu NKR 3 ton trucks. I used a turbo and exhaust manifold off an HE which was used in the larger NPR trucks. We converted over 65 of the NPR trucks to electric and a couple of the NKR's. One of the NKR's had a 2.8L 4JB1-TC engine which I put in my Grand Cherokee and it was an amazing engine with unbelievable fuel mileage. For a 2.8L it would consistently get over 35 MPG and up to 42mpg (for over 10 years), the TDI will not do that for us in the lighter Jeep XJ.
The factory 2.8 in my truck will struggle to get 22-23 on the way to work but once it's on the highway I'm able to max out at 35, but average 32-33. Maybe I need to get an Isuzu swap in there...damn VM stlyed motors :p
 

evguy1

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Feb 8, 2014
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Erington, BC, Canada
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2000 Jeep Cherokee TDI, 2008 Jeep JKU TDI
Yea I don't get it. Simple manual pump and such good mileage.

We really notice the increased consumption with the 1.9 TDI.
 

midnightoil

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Location
Minnesota
TDI
researching for a TDI highway driver and occasional tow pig
There is totally no excuse to overload a vehicle. I don't care if you kill yourself, but leave me and everyone else out of your plot.
Sigh. For the last time. I am not responsible for your misunderstandings. I am talking about loads which are considered safe in europe driving at european speeds, not once not ever have I talked about doing something like towing a Passat behind another Passat at 75mph like some kind of a retard.

I'm just going to change my 'location' tag to say europe so I can ask questions without being put in my place every tenth post.

If you want to play moral police there are a dozen plus people all over this board who keep posting the same pictures of Jettas towing Jettas and other Class 2 weights and Euro hitch weights up, down, sideways, to the moon and back.

I dont know what speeds they are towing this at. I hope they are towing it at safe speeds. Maybe that's 25-45mph. THIS thread even isn't about towing Jettas with Jettas, it's about towing weights with a TDI engine. In a heavier chassis. One more able to handle the weight of towing including US LEGALLY since an S10 and a Tacoma will go right to 6k.

If I blow up the TDI engine that's my business. Can I have my thread back now?


1. When the Saturn dies, replace that vehicle with something of comparable capability.

2. When the truck dies, replace that vehicle with something of comparable capability.
Yeah, and it may go exactly like that. Yet the whole reason everyone captured my interest was seeing all of these conversions involving a TDI put into a 4200lb SUV towing 3000lbs with a coefficient of drag area of 12 square feet.

The combination of these specs is BEYOND what I was originally even considering or planning. Yet this is what got me interested, other people doing more than I thought a TDI could even do. Therefore I decided to start asking questions of other people who were pushing the limits or at the edge.

I don't know how far I feel comfortable pushing that edge myself. Yet what is the harm in asking questions? They piqued my interest and curiosity and it's spiraled into a bunch of related offshoot questions. Alot of this is I dont understand why i'm feeling harassed for asking when there's a dozen plus people doing "worse" who I don't see getting harassed for stating what they do already. Which is more than I originally planned to do.


are you suggesting than an om606 and 1.9 TDI are equivalent at the same power levels???? That seems very misguided.
I cant find a single OM606 for sale when I searched car-part and what i've seen suggests they are even more expensive. I see a number of OM617 which aren't really much cheaper than a TDI 1.9L. I see people saying that an ALH is easily the match of an OM617 and a BHW a good run for the money for an OM606 in terms of overall durability at a given power. That is part of what led me to give VW's a second look.
 

midnightoil

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Feb 18, 2013
Location
Minnesota
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researching for a TDI highway driver and occasional tow pig
At the risk of throwing further gasoline on the apparent fires of frustration, yes i'll be trying to reduce down or not follow up on certain threads. I'm just trying to catch back with where things were, to try and explain a few things.

I'm not trying to piss off the board. I'm just trying to not be misunderstood. :(


Sad little souls like me in the low rent district have to build our dream vehicles, rather than just buying them outright.
<--- This.

I can afford a $2500-3000 Jetta to get started as a VW owner probably this coming summer.

If I literally am planning on driving it hundreds of thousands of miles, I can probably rebuild the powertrain and have something reliable for that for alot less than a new vehicle.

A power boost would be nice sometime after that. When I make money it comes in intermittent bursts, not perfectly easy $400/month payments so I improve it as I go. Especially when I explained HOW this works - I do random craigslist things and might make $500-3000 in one tow if I get lucky. I've given up jobs already because it was beyond my Saturn's 1200lb tow limit (and my pickup wasn't available and neither was a rental) that could have made me $3k twice, that would have paid for the TDI rebuild if I had one.

I make _intermittent_ but not reliable cash. So i'm looking for a vehicle I can intermittently upgrade.


You're not getting the whole picture with just this one thread. The op has been asking about cheap hp and towing potentially unsafe loads with not enough vehicle to control it. He mentions wanting to tow 10k more than a few times
I'm pretty sure I never mentioned 10k and VW in the same sentance. Any talk i've made of towing 10,000lbs was about getting a Cummins Dodge Ram to replace my current pickup which is only good to 5,000lbs. I haven't yet had any jobs over 5000lbs but a reserve would be nice, and 5000lbs is within spitting distance of guys throwing a Passat on a dolly behind another Passat so don't act like i'm from planet Pluto.


If I swap a VW TDI into a Dodge Dakota, which came in a chassis legally rated and brake/suspension equiped to tow up to 5000lbs if it came with a v6 and tow package, how is this unsafe??? Am I allowed to have my thread back? Why do you think i'm ASKING about a swap into a heavier vehicle to begin with? Because i'm not COMFORTABLE with the idea of pushing a Jetta or Passat to the level that other people ALREADY do all over the board. Yet i'm still CURIOUS when they show they have done so.

I'm willing to accept my post not being welcomed if i'm wrong, I only get frustrated when i'm misunderstood.


He's started a staggering 34 threads, vast majority of which have essentially the same pie-in-the-sky theme of a TDI powered tow vehicle. I'd lost track of how many until I looked. :p
A Jetta towing 1200lbs is already a tow vehicle.
My Saturn towing 1200lbs is already a tow vehicle.
I'm sorry if my questions are frustrating the board, I am trying to be clearer, but they are not all the same. Let me make one last attempt here:

I have had two main driving questions regarding towing,#1 is there any way to make one vehicle do both jobs I have right now having seen the guy pulling 6800lbs in his 4000lb or whatever Ford Ranger with compound turbos on a BHW. I'm sorry if I got curious because of this, okay? The board is full of lots of other 3500-4000lb tow stories behind Golfs and Jettas. People post their pictures in my threads already.


The second range of questions has all been is there any practical way to raise the cutoff between the things I tow with a VW TDI engine because in the future living situation I will have to park the pickup about 60 miles away from the VW which I keep in town. So this started the slippery slope of curiosity wondering how far can it go... do I have to take that 240 mile journey to get the truck if I want to tow 1500lbs? How about 2000lbs? When in europe they tow 2600lbs? THAT is where 85% of towing related questions are spawning from.


The power questions are all because if I get a Jetta or Passat as a daily driver, at some point I want to make it faster ANYWAYS even if it's only towing 1200lbs Class 1. Yet practical tow questions seep into the performance thread, two birds one stone.


If what i've just explained, for I think the fourth time doesn't make sense i'll stop trying and stop posting on the topic. I'm just making an attempt to not be completely misunderstood. And I was STILL curious about Dodge bellhousing stuff because a TDI powered Dakota towing 1201-5000lbs alongside a TDI powered Jetta towing 0-1200lbs could also work as well as the S10 or Tacoma I was already considering. I made this post because of this thread on another board https://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?42666-VW-TDI-Swap-info-guide if you scan down for 'dakota' you'll see people talking about stuff that is maybe incorrect, but it's why I posted.

So when people keep implying "this a__hole wants to tow 10,000lbs with a Jetta" that is flat out WRONG. I'm frustrated when saying too little gets me in trouble so then I say too much and i'm still in trouble, and then I try to correct the misunderstanding and now i'm in even more trouble because I can't win. Maybe I ask too many questions but when people repeat back to me what they think i'm saying, and it's very very different than what I was intending, I don't know what else to do but to try and post a clarification. :(
 
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turbobrick240

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Nov 18, 2014
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
If you do manage to get a tdi powered tow rig swap built, I'd be careful about hopping up the power level very much. The little 4 cylinders will take a lot of load/abuse in their stock format. Pushed much beyond that with heavy loads can easily take them out of the designed in durability. As long as you aren't in a hurry(and have the gearing), 100 hp can do a tremendous amount of work.
 

Exenos

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Location
Ontario
TDI
02 Golf
I'm pretty sure I never mentioned 10k and VW in the same sentance. Any talk i've made of towing 10,000lbs was about getting a Cummins Dodge Ram to replace my current pickup which is only good to 5,000lbs. I haven't yet had any jobs over 5000lbs but a reserve would be nice, and 5000lbs is within spitting distance of guys throwing a Passat on a dolly behind another Passat so don't act like i'm from planet Pluto.
:(
If you are going to quote my post at least have the courtesy to quote the entire post and not cut it off to where it suits you.
You have never mentioned a cummins in the same post as towing 10k in the threads I've read. That is a very key piece of information that needed to be stated.

If you want 100% well meaning advice from some one who has a tdi swap I'd just stick with not doing a swap.
In your case it sounds like you need 100% reliability so you don't have to miss out on a job when it appears. Buy a golf, not a jetta. The lack of trunk shortens the distance from hitch to axle and reduces the lever effect thats inherent to a bumper tow. This helps with control and tongue weight. Run wagon springs in the rear, again to help with tongue weight. Good pads and rotors, not your cheapie ceramic pads. Buy an egt gauge and get a mild stage 2 tune with .216 nozzles when the money is there. Keep the power levels reasonable. Boost gauge is good too but not as critical as a pyro if towing imo. Nice clutch and your off to the races for say 3k maybe more. Mirrors are kinda pathetic but hey.

Then save up for a 2wd cummins. They're dirt cheap cause no one wants a 2wd cummins, at least up here. 5K should get you into one which is only slightly more than the cost of a truly reliable swap and it gets you a much more capable vehicle.

Thats what I'd do and again, I have a swapped ranger.
 

midnightoil

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Location
Minnesota
TDI
researching for a TDI highway driver and occasional tow pig
If you do manage to get a tdi powered tow rig swap built, I'd be careful about hopping up the power level very much. The little 4 cylinders will take a lot of load/abuse in their stock format.
Oh I imagine, i'm not even sure if i'd feel comfortable running 90hp all day long, like say as a marine engine as some people have done. Because usually car engines aren't designed for 100% WOT nonstop loads.

But I don't know these engines. That's why i'm asking the people that do. And part of why i'm so curious is that if the first TDI works, chances of having a second or even a third TDI is actually fairly likely. And the ability to have one car tow the other home (like a Passat that, in an emergency, can tow the Jetta home. OR a Jetta that in an emergency can tow a 2nd Jetta home, especially flat towed on a stick shift since that's more stable and less weight than with a dolly) that is SUPER super useful. VW's are the only compacts i've ever read of anyone even TRYING this with so far, and the midsize Passat is the only midsize i've ever heard of knocking down about 50mpg so far.

So whether two Golfs or two Jettas or two Passats, or some mismatch of each, possibly PLUS an additional TDI swapped minitruck... if I fall in love with the engine and the first works reliably, i'm asking questions with relevance to alot of other related things. Just trying to learn it all before I take the first step, if I can. So that say when I learn how to do a timing belt on one TDI I know I can do that job on the others, etc.

But all that... is too much information. I dont expect every person to listen to every post I make to try and keep up, I try to simplify what I post, and focus the question better, even if one question may be relevant to three or more things I might have in mind when I ask it. Totally different projects or future options for instance.


If you are going to quote my post at least have the courtesy to quote the entire post and not cut it off to where it suits you.
I'm not trying to misrepresent you, if I cut something short at the wrong point i'm just trying to avoid even further complicating posts by leaving out unnecessary information.

It's about sheer post length, people complain about me writing 'novels' already when i'm trying to minimize the information needed when some people already skip posts and there's multiple posts i'm sometimes editing together to respond to.


You have never mentioned a cummins in the same post as towing 10k in the threads I've read. That is a very key piece of information that needed to be stated.
Since i'm in verbose mode, I currently use a 1/2 ton gas pickup to tow up to 5000lbs. Loads above 5000lbs are so far rare, but the ability to take one would be nice if I could have it. Even though I haven't at all needed that YET. (dont have the space to store project vehicles for another 1-3 years, hence the Cummins can come later)

This is also why I kept wondering whether a minitruck TDI towing 5000lbs might work well, since others are hitting total GCWR's comparable or more already and doing it legally and saying their TDI is holding up.



[snip] Then save up for a 2wd cummins. They're dirt cheap cause no one wants a 2wd cummins, at least up here. 5K should get you into one which is only slightly more than the cost of a truly reliable swap and it gets you a much more capable vehicle.

Thats what I'd do and again, I have a swapped ranger.
Since you already have a swap i'll be giving that more serious consideration, though i'm curious if it's like "turned out to be alot more hassle than imagined" for the ranger or what. I like the idea of a 'simpler' TDI swap into a minitruck (S10, Tacoma, talking Dakotas now having seen the info on bellhousings) because again - better chassis, brakes, and suspension for handling the weight. But if it's not that simple even with 'bolt in' bellhousings and chip swaps I might reconsider. I dont want an expected 100 hour job to become a 700 hour job I mean.

Thanks for your specific advice on the Golf seems sound (curious whether a Golf would handle 3k better than even the larger Passat), i'd considered the physics of that too of the hitch closer to the rear, but part of car choice will be up to availability - I know there's alot less Golfs available. :p And it might come down to which VW I find first for a semi tolerable price. And whether or not the VW can help tow home a second VW for a future project, or if I have to resort to the gas pickup, but eventually a second TDI might enter the stable if the first works well and reliably.
 

midnightoil

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Location
Minnesota
TDI
researching for a TDI highway driver and occasional tow pig
In your case it sounds like you need 100% reliability so you don't have to miss out on a job when it appears.
Actually I realized I should possibly expand something, at least for anyone interested (who is probably not much since i've inadvertently frustrated the board with too many questions) since i'm at that point again where hopefully more information will make what i'm asking more clear.


I need high reliability for my 'towing system' but it doesn't have to be perfect for the individual vehicle.

What I mean is that if i'm going to go pick something up, I need to be pretty darn sure both that trailerload, and the vehicle, get back home. So when i'm talking about 'two' Jettas and similar in the previous message, it's because that 2nd car is multipurpose and will replace my girlfriends car if gotten. If the first Jetta or Golf or Passat for me works well, i'm inclined to get a 2nd after a bit IF the car can tow another of it's kind home. (possibly even gas powered since I dont know if she will drive enough miles for diesel to pay for itself at least right away - ie those questions about 'do gas Passats tow as much as diesels') Because IN A PINCH if the first vehicle breaks down, I have the ability to independantly tow the same trailer or/and the vehicle with that 2nd practical commuter car.

The system is reliable, but the individual car may be a little less so. (high miles for instance, or pushing the engine a little too hard with boosted power) This gives me an alternative to having to fire up the 3rd vehicle, the pickup, to bring everything back home - because that's going to be stored 60 miles away at least and it's additional inconvenience. If nothing else works as a strategy, sure, the gas pickup is there to tow my own Jetta and it's load back home. But if the 2nd commuter Jetta I possibly buy and give to my girlfriend can do the job in a pinch, that buys alot of convenience, because we can only have two vehicles at where we will be in the city and her driving the pickup daily uses too much gas.



The other quirk of my situation is that my best way to 'improve profit' in my part time intermittent side job to reduce expenses. Health insurance being what it is, once I make more than ( X ) income, I have to make many thousands more to even break even because i'm on the private health insurance rip off rates. It literally doesn't pay to accept certain extra jobs, unless there is guaranteed to be alot of them and I have the time. It's also why it doesn't make sense to drop $30k on a brand new truck for what is a side job thing - if it was a full time thing, yes it probably would, but it's not.

So the difference of towing at 10mpg and 20mpg while towing potentially adds up to notably more than the gas savings at times, because the only after tax profit I can make even to pay other real bills can only have overall expenses reduced. This bizarre situation of maybe i'm $500 short on bills for the year but if I take one more (taxable) job to make $500 i'm now way more than that behind on actual billed health insurance and medical costs after deductable.

So the economics are sometimes skewed vs what they would be. The biggest thing I gain being able to haul a heavier load with a smaller VW instead of the pickup is that I might have alot of time savings. I might only be able to make $3000 more one year, but I can either do it in ONE trip (with something heavier, getting better mpg than the pickup) or have to run multiple smaller trips and lose out on something. So being a little harder or faster wearing on the engine or anything is not the end of the world, as the one trip might wear less than the six lighter loads that otherwise have to replace it before I can stop working.
 
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Nozzleman

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May 30, 2014
Location
About 15 miles from Venus
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2002 Ford Ranger ALH
The Dakota 2.5 uses the AX15 transmission with a removable bellhousing. It has the same transmission pattern as the NV3500 and NV3550. There is a large and small diameter input shaft tip. You want the big one.



I am currently running an originally 2.5 Dakota AX15 with a 4.0 bellhousing and EV's adapter.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I hope that ax-15 holds up well for you. It's generally not known as a very stout tranny.
 

PickleRick

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Nov 29, 2017
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Greenville sc
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05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I hope that ax-15 holds up well for you. It's generally not known as a very stout tranny.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the ax-5 or the dreadful Peugeot transmission?

Ive heard of guys using the ax15 behind the 4bt although im not sure how long they held up (must be dozens of them as nothing says jeepster like a 4bt) and you'll find plenty attached behind a small block v8.

Granted its a light duty transmission, but i wouldn't consider anything short of a fully built tdi more than medium duty. Low Weight and torque pulse, it's a very friendly engine to swap compared to the big 3.9 strokey diesels.

So long as it's not in a full sized vehicle i doubt anyone with a 4 cyl tdi engine will eat an ax15. Lockers, 38 inch mud tires plus a heavy foot may cause undesired results.
 
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