Low budget manual 5-speed swap.

mgoff5000 · Mar 9, 2018

Thanks, great tips you guys. Appreciate the safety notes too. I'm not planning on my hands really being part of the lowering process. It's not like I care if the thing falls on the floor at this point.

If I can borrow an ATV jack that looks pretty good. I was thinking about this type of low profile HF unit, but even those few inches I suspect will matter.
https://www.harborfreight.com/autom.../450-lb-low-lift-transmission-jack-61232.html

I'd like to get the order going ASAP with Frans but haven't done my research yet. Looking at the "Auto to 5 speed set Passat BHW" on http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434593
I think I'd opt for the DUK since seems about same as FHN in top gear. I'd also add the starter interlock and wiring option. Is the clutch/flywheel setup standard stuff or does that need to come from Frans too?

PickleRick · Mar 9, 2018

If you are going to keep the power stock the clutch and flywheel kit from frans will be fine. If you're getting a tune plan on at least a south bend reline on that clutch disk

mgoff5000 · Mar 9, 2018

Some custom ECU work is necessary right? In that case I'm pretty sure I'd go for some power enhancement as well. What are the general parameters for the flywheel/clutch? For example is there an equivalent US model that I can search on for shopping purposes. (e.g. find something for an ALH or something like that?)

PickleRick · Mar 10, 2018

The gasser 1.8t flywheel will fit. It isn't exactly heavy enough to be a perfect match but will work on a budget. I dont know if it slips under the stock 240ish ft lbs torque but id assume anything other than an unfriendly ceramic disk, spill your coffee grabby performance clutch would be pushing the limits of the gasser clutch.

The sachs kit from frans is from the euro 1.9 tdi passat and works perfect for stock hp.

Many have taken the sachs kit, avaliable through frans and a few other vendors on here and had South bend give it a reline. Mostly good reviews. Some report slippage in 50 k or so.

Buying the sachs kit and then having it relined will cost you in the 700 range.

Then there is the holy grail flywheel combo for a little more than a grand from white bread. Its 240mm and fits with no spacers. Will hold whatever power you throw at it. Its super heavy and super smooth. Stock pedal feel. I've yet to hear a negative review on it. It was developed just for these tuned 5 speed conversions.

I've looked into custom clutches (race shop next door to me) and they have a vendor that makes clutches based on your need. I had an ls/vtec boosted honda in the early 2000s that put a little over 300 hp at the wheels. Being it was a daily driver when weather was nice i wanted a strong clutch but smooth. I used a racing pressure plate and stage 2 disk. The combo made the pedal a little heavy but would grip fine in any gear. I hit full boost at 2500 rpms, it didn't hit max hp until around 6,000 rpms but with the short ratio s4c tranny and sub 2500 lbs car it hit this quickly. It never slipped. So i pondered if this was an option using the 1.8t passat clutch/flyweel but the vendor didnt have anything but ceramic 6 puck disks and those are not fun outside a track. It would really suck in school line traffic.

Imho if you are going to tune you might as well do a stage 2. 170hp and 300+ish ftlbs torque. That's more powerful than the 3.9 liter 750 lbs diesels i used to swap into 4000 to 5000lbs Toyota land cruisers. The bhw is half the weight, revs faster thanks to a shorter stroke and has a much more streetable power band. Honestly i think the only diesel swap motor id prefer over the BHW is the om606. A cheap om606 is more rare than a danger zebra so there's a good reason i own 2 bhws and once i get these two passat shells out of my yard ill be shopping for number 3.

mgoff5000 · Mar 10, 2018

Thanks PickRick, great outline of options. Is it $700 to reline or that's the all-in price including the $495 from Frans. The kit option says "Valeo 1.9TDI SMF + $490" which I'm assuming is a whole setup right? (flywheel/clutch/PP)

I'm reading conflicting info about what the 1.9 Valeo can handle. Dogdots says it's fine with a Stage 2 on this thread.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4883333&postcount=3
Anyone here experienced slip issues with this clutch and a Malone Stage 1 or 2? Reading the specs I'd be fine with a Stage 1 if that works but Stage 2 starts pushing it. I under-clutched my Jetta and got slip and don't wanna make the same mistake here.

PickleRick · Mar 10, 2018

Redline charges @ 300 to reline the 400 some odd dollar sachs.

If you read enough posts you'll see a few complaints about 3rd and 4th gear slip.

mgoff5000 · Mar 10, 2018

I guess that's not so bad, but it seems it ought to be cheaper to just get a new performance clutch from the European market no? As a starting point for fitment, is this a version of the 1.9 clutch and flywheel we need for these cars?
https://www.darksidedevelopments.co...ass-flywheel-and-clutch-kit-mk4-platform.html

PickleRick · Mar 11, 2018

I think the mk is the jetta type plat form but im not sure. You'll have to stick with the audi a6 and passat b5 longitudinal platforms.

I believe there are some 240mm euro clutch and flywheels for 700 to 900 that require a spacer to fit. Plus shipping. It would be nice to find a sub 400 dollar clutch and flywheel kit. I have not been able to do so. Shipping from the UK is killer. If I had family/friends over there to do my buying/shipping for me id maybe be able to find a better deal.

But if i had family/friends in the uk id also be having 25+yr old defenders and series land rovers shipped to me!

mgoff5000 · Mar 11, 2018

Yeah, I kind of figured I won't have any novel ideas here compared to what far more knowledgeable folks have tried. I did email Frans at Dutch Auto to ask about the use of his clutch with a tune and whether it's possible to get a stronger clutch from them if needed.

My project is more of a "get it on the road" than performance quest so I'm most likely going to do the best I can with a known kit from one vendor.

PickleRick · Mar 11, 2018

If i were doing it on a strict budget the places i would not cut corners is on the bsm delete and timing belt swap along with cam inspection (some cheap oem options)

Where i would save the cash if i were in your shoes is just keeping the tune stock hp and use the frans clutch kit.

When you find the extra money for a performance clutch kit upgrade the tune at that time

I cut my corners using a v6 transmission. I don't have but 3 highway miles to commute on my 70 mile a day commute so that may not work for others. When i get the extra cash ill hit up frans for one of his transmissions as i wont need to upgrade the clutch at the time (getting the whitebread clutch) so all i will need to do is swap out the proper transmission.

I'd love to have the budget to do it all at once but the family keeps screwing up my car fund.

mgoff5000 · Mar 11, 2018

Yeah, funny how families have other uses for funding aside from tuning. Luckily I already did the BSM delete, cam and TB after I got the auto-tragic rebuilt a couple years ago.

PickleRick · Mar 15, 2018

Do you by chance have any good pics of where the wiring for the clutch switch is connected for starting and killing the cruise control?

mgoff5000 · Mar 19, 2018

I think this is the youtube link on this job for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lkkd2gGrFA

mgoff5000 · Mar 23, 2018

Does anyone happen to know how tall the bell of the auto trans is? Just trying to figure whether I can get it out from under with the jack stands I have. (Mine go to 17")

Also, I think there was a comment that there's plenty of room for the manual trans with the subframe in place. So is it a reasonable approach to put that back together and take down the engine support before installing the flywheel and manual trans? If I need a little extra clearance to drag trans out front of car it's nice to have the subframe as a lift point.

imo000 · Mar 23, 2018

Maybe if you drop the transmission on the ground then 17" might be enough. But since the room under the car tapers towards the rear, other parts of the transmission might to clear the bottom of the car if the jacks only go up to 17".

Yes, bolt the subframe after the auto transmission is out. BUT FIRST, use a permanent marker and draw the outline of the subframe on the bottom of the car so you have a reference where to bolt it back. This way you might not need an alignment afterwards.

You don't need an engine support if you only remove the rear subframe bolts and just loosen the front ones. Just make sure to have a few threads of the front subframe bolts threaded in so they can hold the engine up safely.

Windex · Mar 23, 2018

The engine mounts sit on brackets bolted to the body - they are not affected by the subframe.

Transmission, absolutely, but not engine.

PickleRick · Mar 23, 2018

I've had a guy on another passat forum tell me he never touches the subframe on engine/tranny removals.(mated to v6) auto or 5 speed. He says he removes the mount brackets on the tranny and thanks the entire assembly out the front. The v6 does have a different subframe. Im going to try it this way as i don't have time to fool with an alignment shop this time of year. If weather holds out in the morning ill be able to confirm if it does or does not work.

I have a 4000lbs rated engine leveling block to assist on maneuvering the motor. Fingers are crossed.

PickleRick · Mar 23, 2018

With a load leveler you can pull it without dropping or even loosening the sub frame. No need to remove brackets for mounts either

mgoff5000 · Mar 24, 2018

I have an engine support bar, used it for BSM delete. I seem to recall it was mandatory there. Service manual calls for it on both jobs, but yeah, the front of the subframe just loosens here as I read the job. I guess I’d hook up anyhow since I have it.

On the clearance issue, I’m thinking I can get the beast on the ground and then lift/support more if needed. I’m willing to put plywood sheets under stands temporarily if I’m not getting under.

PickleRick · Mar 24, 2018

You'll have a much easier time moving the 5 speed compared to the auto. I have an engine stand so i yanked it out all together and now it's sitting upside down waiting on me to order all my parts.

I was hoping to pull the pan and find it already deleted. No such luck

But i was happy to find the power train (auto and manual) can both be removed without losening or dropping the subframe.

I also think there is enough space to also install cv axles before putting in the transmission.

imo000 · Mar 29, 2018

PickleRick said:
I've had a guy on another passat forum tell me he never touches the subframe on engine/tranny removals.(mated to v6) auto or 5 speed. He says he removes the mount brackets on the tranny and thanks the entire assembly out the front. The v6 does have a different subframe. Im going to try it this way as i don't have time to fool with an alignment shop this time of year. If weather holds out in the morning ill be able to confirm if it does or does not work.
I have a 4000lbs rated engine leveling block to assist on maneuvering the motor. Fingers are crossed.

Sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to explain here.

PickleRick · Mar 29, 2018

imo000 said:
Sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to explain here.

Several posts have said subframe must be removed to get the auto tranny out. I was stating someone said on his v6 swaps that he didn't have to loosen or drop the sub frame on removals. I was attempting to do the same. I tried. I succeeded. The load leveler is a must.

imo000 · Apr 4, 2018

PickleRick said:
Several posts have said subframe must be removed to get the auto tranny out. I was stating someone said on his v6 swaps that he didn't have to loosen or drop the sub frame on removals. I was attempting to do the same. I tried. I succeeded. The load leveler is a must.

You got the TDI auto transmission out without loosening the subframe?

PickleRick · Apr 5, 2018

imo000 said:
You got the TDI auto transmission out without loosening the subframe?

Correct. I did. I removed the covers over the cv axles but i dont belive that is required. I was able to use the load leveler to drop the tranny low and raise the engine high and pull right out by raising it over the cross beam as i pulled it out. I did not need to remove the hood shock as there is plenty of room.

I do recommend recommend removing both motor and tranny mounts as to not damage them. If you have someone help spot your tranny mounts should be ok but i couldn't watch and pull the assembly out simultaneously solo so i didn't want to risk dragging across the mounts and damaging them. I found them cracked anyway.

Will be pulling another BHW for my boat in a few weeks. On this one ill try removing without pulling the cv axles out of the hub.

imo000 · Apr 5, 2018

PickleRick said:
Correct. I did. I removed the covers over the cv axles but i dont belive that is required. I was able to use the load leveler to drop the tranny low and raise the engine high and pull right out by raising it over the cross beam as i pulled it out. I did not need to remove the hood shock as there is plenty of room.
I do recommend recommend removing both motor and tranny mounts as to not damage them. If you have someone help spot your tranny mounts should be ok but i couldn't watch and pull the assembly out simultaneously solo so i didn't want to risk dragging across the mounts and damaging them. I found them cracked anyway.
Will be pulling another BHW for my boat in a few weeks. On this one ill try removing without pulling the cv axles out of the hub.

Awesome!

When I pulled my auto transmission, I left the CVs in the hubs but I loosened the sub frame bolts.

mgoff5000 · Apr 9, 2018

imo000 -so did you swap the new axles in without loosening the axle bolts? I got raxles a while back but forget how all the bits go together and whether that’s possible.

imo000 · Apr 10, 2018

No, I pulled the axles when the transmission was out and then installed the 1.8t axles after the manual transmission was attached to the car. In retrospect, should have done the axle installation before putting the manual transmission into the car but there was just enough room to get them in after.

TdiBoyNZ · May 1, 2019

PickleRick said:
The gasser 1.8t flywheel will fit. It isn't exactly heavy enough to be a perfect match but will work on a budget. I dont know if it slips under the stock 240ish ft lbs torque but id assume anything other than an unfriendly ceramic disk, spill your coffee grabby performance clutch would be pushing the limits of the gasser clutch.

The sachs kit from frans is from the euro 1.9 tdi passat and works perfect for stock hp.

Many have taken the sachs kit, avaliable through frans and a few other vendors on here and had South bend give it a reline. Mostly good reviews. Some report slippage in 50 k or so.

Buying the sachs kit and then having it relined will cost you in the 700 range.

Then there is the holy grail flywheel combo for a little more than a grand from white bread. Its 240mm and fits with no spacers. Will hold whatever power you throw at it. Its super heavy and super smooth. Stock pedal feel. I've yet to hear a negative review on it. It was developed just for these tuned 5 speed conversions.

I've looked into custom clutches (race shop next door to me) and they have a vendor that makes clutches based on your need. I had an ls/vtec boosted honda in the early 2000s that put a little over 300 hp at the wheels. Being it was a daily driver when weather was nice i wanted a strong clutch but smooth. I used a racing pressure plate and stage 2 disk. The combo made the pedal a little heavy but would grip fine in any gear. I hit full boost at 2500 rpms, it didn't hit max hp until around 6,000 rpms but with the short ratio s4c tranny and sub 2500 lbs car it hit this quickly. It never slipped. So i pondered if this was an option using the 1.8t passat clutch/flyweel but the vendor didnt have anything but ceramic 6 puck disks and those are not fun outside a track. It would really suck in school line traffic.

Imho if you are going to tune you might as well do a stage 2. 170hp and 300+ish ftlbs torque. That's more powerful than the 3.9 liter 750 lbs diesels i used to swap into 4000 to 5000lbs Toyota land cruisers. The bhw is half the weight, revs faster thanks to a shorter stroke and has a much more streetable power band. Honestly i think the only diesel swap motor id prefer over the BHW is the om606. A cheap om606 is more rare than a danger zebra so there's a good reason i own 2 bhws and once i get these two passat shells out of my yard ill be shopping for number 3.

Have you got a link to the 5 speed 240mm clutch option? I am running the valet 228 and single mass flywheel and tuned and it isn’t holding the torque. The clutch isn’t very old. Manual swapped about 1500km’s ago, the clutch was from a crashed b5 1.8t that had only just had it fitted.
I have the same 228mm clutch in an older 1.9tdi a4 and it holds fine but that’s not got the same power as my Passat does.

blazen71 · May 1, 2019

https://whitbreadperformance.com/co...smf-for-b5-5-manual-swaps?variant=48965239562

deckerfl · Jan 15, 2020

Are there special bolts that bolt the Transmission to the Engine? Aren't these one-time use stretch bolts?
Does someone have a Part Number handy?

I have a DUK on the way to do this swap.

Thanks,
Dan

Low budget manual 5-speed swap.

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