Hard start .... long crank syndrome

Okay gurus, this is my 2002 Jetta ALH TDI engine that's in the '84 Vanagon (its all documented in the TDI Conversion thread) with the hard start issue .... cold or hot.

So, right now, on VCDS the Air Temp is showing 22.5C, Fuel Temp is 24.3 and the coolant temp is 24.3. The engine has not been started in about 20 hours. It is getting cooler as the sun gets lower in the sky.... so, that may account for the Air Temp being a little lower.

I don't think temp difference is the issue.

As I posted over in the Conversion Thread, yesterday morning I cranked it 7 or 8 times with no start..... on the last couple of tries there was some diesel smoke/smell. The battery (new) began to show some weakness. About an hour later, I hit the starter and in a couple of revolutions, it fired right-up!

Also, yesterday afternoon, at a trailhead, we left it parked nose down hill (fuel tank in front and lower than engine). When we come back from a three hour hike, after about 5 or 6 seconds of cranking the engine fired right-up. That was a little longer than it should take, but probably okay. Now, I'm questioning whether or not it is fuel related.... siphoning back (no check valve in my simple set-up for the van).

A couple of weeks ago, I did set the IQ from one end of the range to the other with no difference as far as I could tell. (3.2 to 5.2) It is now set on 4.4.

Correction: The IQ was initially at 4.4, then I tried across the range at different settings. It has been on 3.2 (more fuel) since a week before going to the Fest. I just now set it back to 4.4.... going to leave it there for a while or until someone comes up with a suggestion.

The Timing is about half way between center blue line and top of graph (slightly advanced). That's where the timing is on my Silver Jetta with a 312k mile engine. It starts exceptionally quick! Comments at bottom of graph say, "within spec but slightly advanced."


..........give me your thoughts!

i read that you should see 300 rpm in vcds

mine did the same thing due to the jeep ring gear being so much bigger it couldn't get to 300rpm.. it started fine when coded auto but would crank for 20 seconds before firing when coded manual.

try changing coding to auto.

i ended getting a tune from td tuning it starts instant now and pulls much better.

also look and see if your pump seeps any fuel, you may need to reseal the pump.

A little more info: this engine did sit for close to 5 years (129,800miles on it).

Yes, there "was" a leak at the IP when I finally got it started. Then over the next two days, the leak totally quit.....still dry after almost 2,000 miles (over 1100 miles up and back to Fest as well as a few side trips).

I've heard/read 250 RPM on cranking as well as 300 to be spec. As far as "sound" it seems to be really cranking it fast.

-Starter is new reman.
-Flywheel was off the earlier model IDI diesel engine and "appeared" to be same diameter as the OE DMF from the Jetta.
-New battery too.
-5w-40 T6 Shell Rotella oil
-Synthetic oil in tranny

Well, it's been sitting now for about 40 minutes. I'm going to see how it starts with the new IQ setting...4.4.

Well, just as a matter of elimination, I installed a new 109 Relay....... no help.

It took a fairly long crank interval to start. Then, after it started, in about 30 seconds, I cut the engine off. The re-start was just as long or longer.

For what it's worth, I noticed the tach was showing a little over 500 RPMs while cranking........ may not be accurate at the lower end of the scale!

hmm, I bet you there's air getting sucked in somewhere between the tank, the filter and the engine...

audiphile said:

hmm, I bet you there's air getting sucked in somewhere between the tank, the filter and the engine...

Click to expand...

Yes, that does seem like a logical explanation. However, I should have pointed out, when we finally got it started.......lots of bleeding, even with a relative large I-V hanging above the IP, it was very difficult to start.

Well, in the last couple of days, I've noticed a rattle (lack of a better term). I just assumed it to be the Single Mass flywheel. Well, the sound seems to be coming from the IP..... or Cam area. My hearing is terrrible and direction of sound is difficult. But, when I crawled under the van while the engine was running, the sound is definitely back toward the engine and not the bellhousing tranny area.

Also, I've check the exhaust system, looked at the TB as the engine runs....very smooth, AC compressor wheel seems okay (with or without AC On), PS pump and the ALT all seem okay..... and, cannot find any loose tin!

Well, I'd hoped miles would smooth this thing out.....

Okay, the Updated VCDS from Ross-Tech is telling me that the MAF actual is 525 and should be 230 to 370 at Idle ......... what say the Gurus? Will that affect starting?

only one way to find out. unplug it and try starting!

slow starts

Andy,
How did you resolves the slow start. I have 1.9 ALH that I swap into an Isuzu pickup. Whitbread completed the tune. IP is slightly advanced but with in range. When cranking, it rotate 4 or 5 times before cranking whether hot or cold. If crank engine one revolution, stop and try again it will start on one revolution. Makes no sense! Could the TDC be off? I have not changed the filter, going to try that next

Hang on ............. I thought I was responding to a Thread I started on a BEW engine ...... Let me read above and then, I'll edit accordingly.

Now EDITED to clarify ... LOL

Your ALH..

The pre-99 model ALHs have a hard-start issue that requires a re-flash of the ECU. I suspect Whitbread would have been aware.

I seriously doubt that the TDC is off. That can be easily checked.

I also doubt that a new fuel filter will solve the problem (my brother never changed the FF on his 01 for just over 171k miles........ zero starting problems)

Yes, I did resolve the issue with the 2002 ALH engine in my Vanagon...

I dealt with an unknown grounding issue for almost two years. One day, I put a very long cable on the ground post of the battery and connected it directly to the engine block ............. bam, bam, bam, the engine would start instantly time after time. When I checked the main ground under the Van on the transmission, it was not tight. Problem solved by cleaning that ground and tightening good. I also added an extra heavy ground wire directly to the block..

So, double check your grounding. Grounding is extremely important to the electrical aspects of the engine. If the starter is sucking all the ground, the ECU will not function properly.

Sorry about the mix-up!

Check out the link below ....... scroll down to post # 1199

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798&page=80

I found the issue. If I disconnect the MAP it starts first revolution. Ordering a new MAP tomorrow. Thanks!

superhl said:

I found the issue. If I disconnect the MAP it starts first revolution. Ordering a new MAP tomorrow. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Nice find. Be sure your MAP matches your tune. MAP & Atmospheric should match in MB010 key on, engine off.

Runonbeer,
Can give me a little more detail on how to determine this. Where on the Vagcom do I look for this and how do I determine what to order. Could I have the wrong MAP Maybe the MAP is fine but doesn't match the tune. I ordered a new one but it is the same as the original?? I' m clueless!

Are there any DTC's in the engine group?

AndyBees said:

Hang on ............. I thought I was responding to a Thread I started on a BEW engine ...... Let me read above and then, I'll edit accordingly.

Now EDITED to clarify ... LOL

Your ALH..

The pre-99 model ALHs have a hard-start issue that requires a re-flash of the ECU. I suspect Whitbread would have been aware.

I seriously doubt that the TDC is off. That can be easily checked.

I also doubt that a new fuel filter will solve the problem (my brother never changed the FF on his 01 for just over 171k miles........ zero starting problems)

Yes, I did resolve the issue with the 2002 ALH engine in my Vanagon...

I dealt with an unknown grounding issue for almost two years. One day, I put a very long cable on the ground post of the battery and connected it directly to the engine block ............. bam, bam, bam, the engine would start instantly time after time. When I checked the main ground under the Van on the transmission, it was not tight. Problem solved by cleaning that ground and tightening good. I also added an extra heavy ground wire directly to the block..

So, double check your grounding. Grounding is extremely important to the electrical aspects of the engine. If the starter is sucking all the ground, the ECU will not function properly.

Sorry about the mix-up!

Click to expand...

I added a ground from the chassis to block. Reinstalled MAP and starts much better. The body has one inch width by 1/8 inch mesh looks like galvanized connected to block. I'm going to replace it with 1/2 copper. My battery is in the rear and the ground connects to the chassis. I going to make a direct connection to the battery. Thanks

superhl said:

I added a ground from the chassis to block. Reinstalled MAP and starts much better. The body has one inch width by 1/8 inch mesh looks like galvanized connected to block. I'm going to replace it with 1/2 copper. My battery is in the rear and the ground connects to the chassis. I going to make a direct connection to the battery. Thanks

Click to expand...

Before you go to crazy buying welder cable I would do a voltage drop test from the negative post (not the clamp) of the battery and the ground point on the block.
With the car running, lights and AC on I would not want to see more than a few tenths of a volt drop.

I don't see why you can't repair the problem easier and cheaper then re-engineering the ground system.

Well, as I stated previously, cleaned and tightened the OE ground cable that's attached to the transmission and installed an additional ground cable directly to the block......... everything from the chassis.

The grounding correction solved the starting issue that had plague my conversion project from day one for almost 18 months.

That was back in 2012 as you can see from the first part of this Thread.

wonneber said:

Before you go to crazy buying welder cable I would do a voltage drop test from the negative post (not the clamp) of the battery and the ground point on the block.
With the car running, lights and AC on I would not want to see more than a few tenths of a volt drop.
I don't see why you can't repair the problem easier and cheaper then re-engineering the ground system.

Click to expand...

will test this weekend. Thanks

AndyBees said:

Well, as I stated previously, cleaned and tightened the OE ground cable that's attached to the transmission and installed an additional ground cable directly to the block......... everything from the chassis.

The grounding correction solved the starting issue that had plague my conversion project from day one for almost 18 months.

That was back in 2012 as you can see from the first part of this Thread.

Click to expand...

I'm confident I have it well grounded now. I talked with Matt Whitbread and he sending me a loader which he thinks will resolve the issue. It should arrive this week or next.