Slow Cold Start: Something Different...

Hello,

I'm experiencing some difficult mornings while starting my car. I read this post in the "coldest start" thread elsewhere:

CNDTDI said:

...it was -43 degres celcius... when the glowplugs turned off i turned the key and nothing.... after 1-2 seconds of holding the key, it started to cranck and right after I heard it cranck...it started immediately...

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My car behaves sort of like this, but not quite as extreme. The problem is the temperatures here are between 40-50F. It's not really cold enough to blame the GPs... and I believe them to be working properly, anyway. Plus, I tend to believe a car with faulty GPs in the cold would simply spin the engine for a few extra seconds until turning over. Instead, my car spins VERY slowly and then starts. This happens first thing in the morning as well as in the afternoon when it's time to go home, although the start is better in the afternoon.

It's easy to jump straight to the battery. However, this one is a new OEM battery. The battery has no symptoms of being bad. The alternator is relatively new and gives off appropriate voltage when running. My next effort will involve removing the electrical leads from the starter/battery and cleaning them up in case I have some unseen corrosion.

I've never owned a car long enough to see the starter fail. And I always figured a starter would fail by not working at all. So I guess my question is whether a starter could get "tired" and exhibit the starting signs described above. Does anyone have any suggestions for my next course of action?

Thanks,

Scott

If the battery is good - and you should load test it despite it's age - then it's either the starter or the cables.

Did you say it "jumps start" easily?

I would load test battery,then clean the terminals and check cables.Just because the battery is new,doesn't mean it is a fresh battery.

The battery should have a date stamp on it, check it to make sure it hasn't been sitting around for years, but yes, any electrical motor can slow down with age, including your starter. Go and check your cables, not all corrosion is visible, but it's going to be something very simple.

scott- I am experiencing the same thing with my jetta. Battery (yes, the correct battery) was new last year, it seems to be doing just fine. It starts without a jump, every time, BUT, it seems to turn over very slowly before it fires. With only 97k, I would not suspect the starter, but I don't know what else to think at this point. Temps here are cold, but it's also happening well above freezing. I'm going to check all the cables and connections again today. I think I'll be rebuilding a starter soon.

Same here, slow cranking...battery is just over a year old and was load tested and passed, all connections are clean and tight, rebuilt Bosch starter is 4 months old...

I really don't want to pull the starter again because the frostheater makes a fairly basic job more of a pain in the arse

eb2143 said:

Same here, slow cranking...battery is just over a year old and was load tested and passed, all connections are clean and tight, rebuilt Bosch starter is 4 months old...

I really don't want to pull the starter again because the frostheater makes a fairly basic job more of a pain in the arse

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If battery is of OEM quality/spec and passes load test and provided the contacts/ cables are found to be in good condition-
My bet is the starter in most of the above cases. Even in the case of the "rebuilt" Bosch. A friend of mine rebuilds starters and alts. Most of the "reman" units that come in to him were in fact not "rebuilt", just reconditioned to look like new on the outside. If they weren't totally trashed and still spun, the "rebuilder" simply put in new brushes cleaned the rest up and repackaged them. Often bearings, bushings, and drives are reused-which results in a starter that will operate, but have excessive "drag" and not spin as they should. So the customer goes on replacing other things in the vehicle starting system trying to get better results, only to replace the starter AGAIN (many times under the reman's "warranty"). This time you may get lucky and get one that was trashed and HAD to be completely rebuilt.
Either buy a new OEM unit ($$$) or if you can find a small shop that does rebuilding have your existing unit properly rebuilt.

jettawreck said:

Even in the case of the "rebuilt" Bosch. A friend of mine rebuilds starters and alts. Most of the "reman" units that come in to him were in fact not "rebuilt", just reconditioned to look like new on the outside. If they weren't totally trashed and still spun, the "rebuilder" simply put in new brushes cleaned the rest up and repackaged them. Often bearings, bushings, and drives are reused-which results in a starter that will operate, but have excessive "drag" and not spin as they should. So the customer goes on replacing other things in the vehicle starting system trying to get better results, only to replace the starter AGAIN (many times under the reman's "warranty"). This time you may get lucky and get one that was trashed and HAD to be completely rebuilt.
Either buy a new OEM unit ($$$) or if you can find a small shop that does rebuilding have your existing unit properly rebuilt.

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Yup, I learned that after I bought it. I just want a refund so I can put it towards buying a new OEM. So Stealth, if you end up narrowing it down to the starter, don't buy a reman!!

I added a heated battery blanket. You can wire it up to the coolant heater wire, if you do not want to deal with two plugs all the time.

I find that it makes a noticeable difference when starting. It is only a $25 mod.

eb2143 said:

Yup, I learned that after I bought it. I just want a refund so I can put it towards buying a new OEM. So Stealth, if you end up narrowing it down to the starter, don't buy a reman!!

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Unless you've got a buddy that does it for a living!

seriously, is it possible your oil is frozen? i've seen poor oils freeze in the fridge. others simply turn into molasses.



just a thought, cheers.

Thanks for the input, guys! I'll double-check the battery's date of manufacture. I'm fairly certain the date stamped was in 2008. My biggest goal was to get home for the Holidays before worrying about anything. I'm here now. So I'll get under hood Monday when I do some other work on the car. I will certainly clean my contacts first. I cleaned all of my grounds a few months ago. But I did NOT remove the positive lead from the starter. It would be pretty cool to find that cleaning that contact fixes everything.

If I need a starter, a quick look at WorldImpex shows the following:

Bosch Reman - $159.xx

"Genuine Part" REMAN - $528!

Both are reman'd parts. 1st VW parts doesn't detail a starter for an AHU. So I'll have to check with a dealer source for actual pricing.

Regarding the suggestion of frozen oil? Not a chance! My issue is happening in temperatures well above freezing. I'm trying to get this nailed down before I need to start the car at 15-25 degrees.

Thanks Again,

Scott

good luck scott, keep us posted!

Either people don't complain to me or the Bosch's reman starters are OK. I don't think I've ever had one come back.

peter- if you had to guess, do you know the average on how long an a4 alh starter typically lasts? my 137K golf is fine, but 97K on the jetta just doesn't seem right, although I don't know much about how it was driven before I got it at 68k.

+1 for the starter.

I think starter life is very highly variable. Average trip length, car condition, battery condition--all these things can impact starter life. The only TDI starter I've replaced on my own cars is on my son's A3 at 170K. IBW's is sill fine, but that car has had a lift pump since 100K and the car barely turns over once before firing. I also don't have to crank it over for any length of time after replacing the fuel filter or injectors. And the car is almost always garaged. All these things matter.

I have heard enough '99s with hard warm start crank over at length to wonder how that impacts starter life. And I know that you can overheat the starter by too much cranking. If that's done a few times it might shorten life considerably.

All that said, I'd say that a well-maintained car should go close to 200K on the OE starter. More if it's well cared for (or in a warm climate) less if not.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Either people don't complain to me or the Bosch's reman starters are OK. I don't think I've ever had one come back.

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If the reman is done by Bosch it may well be a quality rebuild. (It should be for the $$$) The typical remans for domestics are done by generic independents. When you see a "rebuilt" starter (for an example GM 350 for $49), do you think its had all the stuff inside inspected/replaced. Nope. Not to say it won't work OK, even last a long time. It's just a coin toss sometimes.
Also about a month ago I replaced my battery with a new group 94R OEM spec one. It came with a BMW logo on it from a local "wholesaler". It was an improvement from the "less than spec" unit that had resided there. About a week ago, after a new stereo install and having the interior lights and stereo on for many hours and having let the vehicle sit for over a week, I figured I'd put the charger on it before taking it to work in the morning. It was -17F outside and the Jetta was in the unheated garage for over a week. Wow, what a difference!! Even though I had driven the car for a couple weeks with the new battery and it started fine, there is a noticeable difference in the way it cranks over now-and it's been quite a few days of -0F lately. A good 24 hr charge should have been done before I ever started using the new battery. If you've got a "good" battery and it doesn't seem to have what it should, try putting a slow maintainance charge on it.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I think starter life is very highly variable. Average trip length, car condition, battery condition--all these things can impact starter life.

I have heard enough '99s with hard warm start crank over at length to wonder how that impacts starter life. And I know that you can overheat the starter by too much cranking. If that's done a few times it might shorten life considerably.

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Yes, and my rebuilder friend claims most starters are "damaged" in the heat of summer only to "fail" when cold weather puts the extra demand on them.

Take a look at this thread, http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=232842 there are some pics of my failed starter on post #45. Take a look it may help.

Hello,

Battery load test is done. All is well. I'll get a closer look at the starter tomorrow, starting with the cleaning of all associated electrical connections.

Later,

Scott

I think it's time for a new battery. I left the key in my wagon for two days and the battery was dead this noontime. Charged up OK and started fine, but I didn't leave anything on in the car and the battery still ran down.

Peter,

If you leave the key in the ignition without first removing it, a minor unfused accessory line remains active for the radio. Even if your radio was off, perhaps there was something on that line slowly draining the battery?

Scott

That's what I thought. But I don't think 48 hours of that should kill the battery. It wouldn't even turn the car over, and my garage was easily in the 50s when I tried. I think six and one-half years and 200K is a decent service life.