Porsche CEO Says "It's a Blast" - Triple CO2 Cayenne Emmisions

They say it will cost Porsche a certain amount of money per vehicle to achieve 120 grams of CO2 per vehicle.

If one assumes that they want to keep producing vehicles in the same classifications as now (rather than switch production entirely to copies of Toyota Aygo minicars!) then I fail to see how 120 grams per kilometer is even possible to achieve at all.

Good.

Its about time Porsche gets back to its roots and produces a 35 mpg true sports car. When the Miata came out, a lot of us Porsche people bought one and felt it should have had a Porsche crest on it to begin with.

I had a 912 as my first car and love those 35 mpg 914's that were way ahead of their time.

Porsche is spoiled and a bit arrogant nowadays. Lets see a bit of humility and more of a 356 type again!

Too bad they bought controlling stock in Audi, because the TDI Audi race cars were kicking their butt! We may not see as much in the future.

TM

GoFaster said:

They say it will cost Porsche a certain amount of money per vehicle to achieve 120 grams of CO2 per vehicle.

If one assumes that they want to keep producing vehicles in the same classifications as now (rather than switch production entirely to copies of Toyota Aygo minicars!) then I fail to see how 120 grams per kilometer is even possible to achieve at all.

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It's not possible. The 120 gm/km limit will kill Porsche, BMW, and probably Mercedes.

More likely Germany will just have to tell the European Commission to go f*** themselves.

TornadoRed said:

It's not possible. The 120 gm/km limit will kill Porsche, BMW, and probably Mercedes.

More likely Germany will just have to tell the European Commission to go f*** themselves.

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Why can't they just compromise, as they already have by the way, and produce environmentally responsible rides. It would be easy when biodiesel gains market share.

For now, how about a 35 mpg sports car instead of a luxury/sport GT muscle car..... please.

TM

Maybe 120 gm/km is impossible, but why triple? Seems a bit excessive....

Perhaps they feel that, in the overall picture, there just aren't that many of these sold, and it doesn't matter? I guess if its ok for Porsche, etc.....

Ray

It looks like they have settled on 130 grams per kilometer as an *industry* average as opposed to average for each individual company, and it will be left to the industry to sort out the differences between companies. The European fleet average right now is something like 161 grams per kilometer. Still not there, but at least this new target is "less unachievable".

I wonder what's going to happen if the industry fleet-average target is not met.

I think this is going to expedite production of Peugeot's diesel+hybrid powertrain, and VW has had a demo vehicle with that, too.

FYI, at 130 g/km, all is not lost. Here is a production family-ready wagon that emits 136 g/km: http://www.thecarlounge.com/news/publish/article_723.shtml

The diesel-powered Mercedes sedans (E-class, C-class, S-class) range from about 160 gm/km to about 225 gm/km. One assumes that Mercedes engineers have already done nearly all that can be done, without switching to smaller-displacement engines. Do their customers really want that?

And those are the diesel-engine options -- the gas-engine models pump out more CO2.

I assume the mid- and large-size BMW models with diesel engines emit similar amounts of CO2. And that BMW's gas engines can't achieve the proposed limits.

Porsche does not build diesel engines, it only builds some of the very best gasoline engines in the world. If Porsche tried to switch over to small-displacement engines in smaller cars, then it would be competing against Miatas and S2000s. If customers want cars like that, they wouldn't be buying Porsches right now. And if Porsche is forced to build cars that customers don't want...

Volkswagen is not really threatened by these limits, nor are Fiat or Renault. The limits, however, are like a dagger in the heart to MB, BMW, and Porsche.

Some cars with the largest engines may go the way of the 60's muscle cars. How many cars of any type can the atmosphere handle?

Ray

raybo said:

Some cars with the largest engines may go the way of the 60's muscle cars. How many cars of any type can the atmosphere handle?

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And if Porsches disappeared from the face of the earth, we would all benefit HOW?

GoFaster said:

FYI, at 130 g/km, all is not lost. Here is a production family-ready wagon that emits 136 g/km: http://www.thecarlounge.com/news/publish/article_723.shtml

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Yea, like I want to have my freedoms dictated to me and be forced to drive around in some tiny tincan deathtrap that'd be totaled in a collision with a scooter!












































Ok, I guess I'd drive one of those around

Who said anything about Porsches disappearing?

Ray

raybo said:

Who said anything about Porsches disappearing?

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The Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking said it, implicitly.

The 911 Carreras and Targas would disappear, along with the Cayennes. The Boxsters and Caymans would have to be detuned. There really wouldn't be much left of a once-great auto manufacturer.

And what would be gained? How would one person in six billion gain even the slightest benefit, now or in 100 years?

How about a 911 TDI ,

anyone else up for one of these

The previous version of this required 120 g/km average from each company, which would be impossible for the luxury and sports car manufacturers to deal with. The new version of an industry fleet average 130 g/km requires further progress from where Europe is now (~20% fleet average consumption reduction, which is trouble enough, but it's more possible than a greater reduction) would allow the luxury and sports car manufacturers to deal with it, probably by paying a big incentive ($ $ $) to other manufacturers.

Porsche cleaned up with their most popular models ever... what were they?... 4 cylinder cars: the 914, 944, and later the 2.5 liter (6 cylinder) Boxster.

They can compete if they want to. Plenty of Porsche people out there who don't belong to the rich/gold chain set.

I would say Porsche has already lost its way. Going back to a 356 type car: "the ultimate in personal transportation" instead of an expensive Corvette is where they should be.

TM

Tin Man said:

Porsche cleaned up with their most popular models ever... what were they?... 4 cylinder cars: the 914, 944, and later the 2.5 liter Boxster....
I would say Porsche has already lost its way. Going back to a 356 type car: "the ultimate in personal transportation" instead of an expensive Corvette is where they should be.

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That's like saying Chevrolet should go back to building its great cars of the 1950s and 1960s. Those days are gone.

Porsche may have sold lots of 914s -- but they make excellent profits from the cars they sell right now. These proposed regulations would destroy the company's profitability, and its R&D budget, and most of the jobs it provides.

Lotus already builds light-weight cars with modest power -- lovely cars that barely make a ripple in the auto marketplace anywhere.

What you're asking Porsche to do would put them into competition with Honda, Toyota, and maybe Suburu. "Porsche, there is no substitute"? It would not take long before sales of Porsches dropped to that of Lotus.

Something similar might happen to MB and BMW, though not nearly to the same extent. Still, their most profitable models would likely disappear, along with a huge number of jobs. I can't imagine any German chancellor allowing such a thing to happen -- just as no American president would allow some UN agency or other multinational organization to destroy a major industry here. If our government was a signatory to such an organization, we'd have to withdraw.

Let's see what happens.

The profitability of Porsche may be a red herring: they may actually be falling behind, especially in diesel and hybrid tech. Haven't seen the latest Porsche sales, eh? If it weren't for the Cayenne and the newness of the Cayman, total sales would be down yearly for the last few years.

What I gleaned from the AutoWeek design forum at this year's Detroit show may differ a bit, but we may be in agreement about the result but not the cause of decreased market for German cars. Toyota and Honda are ready to invade Porsche's expensive car turf in a big way with their newest designs, including a fantastic hybrid sports car from Toyota and a new front-engine NSX.

Porsche is in a difficult situation in that its product doesn't really change but as in the past, the market for its cars might. Chevrolet, on the other hand, still IS building cars like they did in the past and not looking toward new developments/change fast enough. Same happened to Jaguar of late.

Innovation drives the market, and Porsche needs to develop its product just as much if not more to maintain sales. I don't want them to build a 356, just a smaller engined real sports car for future fuel efficiency demands. What they also have now is more of an unaffordable lineup (try pricing one below $50,000 new!) that may be more vulnerable to world economic trends than you think. Sure Honda and Toyota will have their share, but do you really think a homogenized cramped S2000 or a "me too" Toyota can compete if Porsche puts its creative muscle behind a more economical/green sports car? Oh, and please, don't think Lotus. There is no comparison. They are completely different brands. Porsche should be competing as the ultimate in personal transportation, very unlike Lotus or Corvette.

TM

The cars would have to be TUNED for reducing emissions and increasing economy. Oil companies will not be happy, unless they also diversify. The number of cars in the world is increasing each day.

Maybe we should have population controls?? (a different kind of emission control?)

Ray

So It's Not Just Me???

Less people? What a concept! Turn me into ash if you all like, but the planet does not need almost 6.7 billion and counting... All of nature EXCEPT humanity keeps itself in balance. It's not dollars and doodads, it's needed balance for our mutual survival.

Natural disasters will keep things in line.

Two solutions that I see:

1. How much would the fine be for buying a car that emits over 120 g/km of CO2? Porsche buyers usually have loaded wallets, they could probably just pay the fine rolled into the purchase price . . .

2. Could engine de-tuning meet the CO2 goal? The cars could come from the factory tuned to fall below the limits (with probably 1/3 the HP) and then the dealerships could swap the ECU to a new "off-road" tuned setup before the car even gets one mile on the odometer. It could be like a free post-sale upgrade, to weasel past the law.

They all laughed at Christopher Columbus
When he said the world was round
They all laughed when Edison recorded sound
They all laughed at Wilbur and his brother
When they said that man could fly

They told Marconi
Wireless was a phony
It's the same old cry....

Porsche and the other polluters will figure it out or go out of business - like other car makers over the years that bit the dust. Life goes on, with or without some luxury car maker that loses its way. I certainly wouldn't bet on Porsche failing, however.

Ray

MrMopar said:

Two solutions that I see:

1. How much would the fine be for buying a car that emits over 120 g/km of CO2? Porsche buyers usually have loaded wallets, they could probably just pay the fine rolled into the purchase price . . .

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Nobody knows yet how much of an incentive transfer will be needed to achieve this industry-average situation ... in fact, I can't even imagine how one could possibly calculate it in advance. For sure, it's going to involve a heavy penalty on high-consuming cars to fund a subsidy on low-consuming cars. For sure, rich people who can afford the luxury cars are simply going to pay the penalty (almost) no matter how much it is.

MrMopar said:

2. Could engine de-tuning meet the CO2 goal? The cars could come from the factory tuned to fall below the limits (with probably 1/3 the HP) and then the dealerships could swap the ECU to a new "off-road" tuned setup before the car even gets one mile on the odometer. It could be like a free post-sale upgrade, to weasel past the law.

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Trouble is that de-tuning doesn't change the aerodynamic drag, friction losses in the powertrain, etc., so there really isn't much to be gained here.

I think what will eventually happen is that high-performance and luxury vehicles will get diesel-hybrid powertrains in order to minimize the luxury tax, and smaller vehicles will get diesel-hybrid powertrains subsidized by the luxury tax on other vehicles. Gasoline engines will probably almost disappear and will be more expensive to buy than diesel engines due to the penalty for higher fuel consumption.

The BlueMotion Passat has CO2 emissions barely above the industry-average target, and that car does not have a hybrid powertrain, only an "optimized" PD-105 and manual gearbox. We all know that hot-rodding a TDI (properly) doesn't worsen its day-to-day fuel consumption. I think the 130 g/km fleet average is tough, but achievable. It will penalize 4x4's and overly heavy, large vehicles for sure.

GoFaster said:

It will penalize 4x4's and overly heavy, large vehicles for sure.

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Good, hardly anyone actually needs either or both of those characteristics in a vehicle.

Carbon dioxide emissions are directly related to fuel economy. Since it is inheritly difficult to make engines more efficient, they would have to be downsized or operate under different principals, such as a diesel engine. Porsche has already stated they have no intentions of producing a diesel powered vehicle, because diesels lack what Porsche thinks their clients are looking for in a high reving sports car.

Then Porsche will either have to eat their words, or charge a premium for the privilege of using a gasoline engine, or do further developments to improve the efficiency of their gasoline engines ... or some combination.

Honda is already in the process of eating their words ... that was another company that once upon a time would have never dreamed of building a diesel engine. They're not finished developing gasoline engines, either. Read this: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=659664

There was a time when the CEO of Porsche (and I'm talking about Ferdinand Porsche) would have seen such a limit as an engineering challenge, and innovated to beat the competition under that challenge.

Porsche is absolutely not the car company they used to be.

One of the first cars Dr. Porsche designed was an electric.

Volkstraktor said:

Less people? What a concept! Turn me into ash if you all like, but the planet does not need almost 6.7 billion and counting... All of nature EXCEPT humanity keeps itself in balance. It's not dollars and doodads, it's needed balance for our mutual survival.

Click to expand...

Species in nature keep themselves in balance by DYING.

You and I may see the danger in overbreeding. But for every one of us, there's probably 100 people who believe it's their duty to GOD to have 7 children. And the only way they will be stopped from meeting that duty, is by force. That's what it will eventually come down to. Genocide, or mass starvation, or some form of nasty authoritarian world government. (even the Chi-coms didn't succeed in population reduction).

Unfortunately - by sheer probability, it's the descendants of those who overbreed who are more likely to be the survivors.

And that is how nature will keep the human population in check. It's not pretty. But this aspect of nature seldom is.