2003 Jetta TDI Wagon GLS silver/black leather

eurocargarage · Dec 28, 2007

2003 Jetta TDI Wagon GLS silver/black leather SOLD THANK YOU

Hello everyone
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon GLS
92xxx miles
One owner
Silver, black leather, roof, racks............................this one has it all
Pictures http://www.eurocargarage.com/webtemplate.aspx?IID=237883
Asking $16900
Currently 4 ( four ) Jetta Wagon's in stock, other TDI's also.
Located in Saugus MA 01906
Can help with shipping
Thanks and happy holidays

CRasH180 · Dec 30, 2007

I would consider this vehicle, but the price seems a bit high. I checked on Edmonds.com and they are listing the Dealer Retail at $12,922. What makes this car worth $16900?

eurocargarage · Dec 30, 2007

Market value. Book has not much to do with TDI's.
Thanks

Harvieux · Dec 30, 2007

CRasH180 said:
I would consider this vehicle, but the price seems a bit high. I checked on Edmonds.com and they are listing the Dealer Retail at $12,922. What makes this car worth $16900?

Eurocargarage is correct. If you are going to base your TDI aquisition on book value, you will remain TDI-less or end up only getting what you pay for which will be at or more than if you paid the market price for a known good one once it is brought up to our (tdiclub member's) standards. Later!

edwardo · Dec 30, 2007

TDIs and diesel cars are worth what you are willing to pay. I just bought a 2003 Jetta wagon (GLS TDI, all the goodies) for $13,500. But mine has 144k miles, which diminishes the value. AND it was 400 miles away, and the seller delivered it to my door. And the water pump, TB, tensioners, etc had all been done in the last 400 miles, so it was a good deal to me. I saw one go for $12k (92K miles), again w/ all the goodies, so keep looking, make an offer, and negotiate! Dealers get more than private party (Duh!), and private parties usually know the vehicle's maintenance history better. My advice: don't pay $4K less than original sticker price for a 5-yo vehicle with 100K miles!

Harvieux · Dec 30, 2007

edwardo said:
TDIs and diesel cars are worth what you are willing to pay. I just bought a 2003 Jetta wagon (GLS TDI, all the goodies) for $13,500. But mine has 144k miles, which diminishes the value. AND it was 400 miles away, and the seller delivered it to my door. And the water pump, TB, tensioners, etc had all been done in the last 400 miles, so it was a good deal to me. I saw one go for $12k (92K miles), again w/ all the goodies, so keep looking, make an offer, and negotiate! Dealers get more than private party (Duh!), and private parties usually know the vehicle's maintenance history better. My advice: don't pay $4K less than original sticker price for a 5-yo vehicle with 100K miles!

The point here is if you base your aquisition parameters on the value book guidelines, you will be TDI-less for a long time to come whether acquired from a private party or not. Let's use your recently acquired specimen as an example. The above unit has an Edmunds value of $12,800 (I did not confirm these numbers) or so with the 92K miles, right? Your specimen with over 50K more in miles may book at what, $8.5K to $9K (I did not confirm these numbers, either) or so? You paid about $4500 over, didn't you? Any questions? Later!

LanduytG · Dec 30, 2007

Anyone that pays more than book is very foolish. I can buy a lot of gas for the extra $4K. People seem to buy without thinking when it comes to a TDI. 50 mpg or not does not make it worth more than book. You can find TDI's at the right price that are in just as good a shape if you are will to wait. Buy with your brain not your heart.

Greg

eurocargarage · Dec 30, 2007

Thanks for the argument Harvieux.

I have been selling ( and buying of course ) TDI's for a long time. Yes they are overpriced, I couldn't agree more. Prices went up again and they will keep going up. I would buy every single TDI that I have sold two years ago, for the selling price at the time, regardless of extra mileage and condition.
Just to address the book, it means NOTHING at all. First of all there is a HUGE difference between KBB, NADA and Edmunds, so which one is accurate? Simply none.
Book is just for the informational purposes. PERIOD. If I was to buy TDI's by book I would have NONE. Word is out, too late. There is no such thing as stealing one any more. I buy those from VW dealers, other new car dealers, wholesalers, auctions................and believe me they know.
Back to the book, how would you like to buy Mint 2003 Audi A6 Q Avant, 96k one owner miles for $17,240 which is KBB retail value? How about $11,000? That's what I got for the car after sitting on it for 6 months and ZERO phone calls and boy I was happy to get out of it. Just another proof book is worthless. Or how about Passat B4 Wagon's ? Book is $3,675 but they sell for close to $10,000?
It's supply and demand thing. There is far more people interested in TDI's than available on the market, especially when it comes to Wagons. TDI is whole different category and true, people buy them for fuel economy, BUT they also buy them because they drive the way they do. I personally wouldn't replace TDI for any gasser, or any other car, at least what's available in this country. They also keep value and once they decide to sell them they get their money back for the most part.
People who already own one don't ask about book value, they know, the only argument is if they can afford that particular car. Book questions usually come from those who are getting one for the first time ( understandable )
Edwardo price buying from a dealer doesn't have to be higher than if you buy from private party. At least in my case I'm at or below what private sellers are asking for their cars ( not just on TDI's ). And of course you can offer what you are comfortable with. If that works for us both than Great, you get your self a deal. If not, we just move on. I believe you have 1990 B3 diesel for sale? What's a book on that car? $900? I bet you would like to get more? How do you apply book value on that?
So Greg, I trust you are good guy and have best intentions, please let me know if you run into one that's book deal. I would like to buy it.
Thanks for reading my rambling and Happy New Year to all

Harvieux · Dec 31, 2007

LanduytG said:
Anyone that pays more than book is very foolish. I can buy a lot of gas for the extra $4K. People seem to buy without thinking when it comes to a TDI. 50 mpg or not does not make it worth more than book. You can find TDI's at the right price that are in just as good a shape if you are will to wait. Buy with your brain not your heart.

Greg

Greg, I was referring to Edmunds book values. Whether right or wrong, KBB seems to be the closest for the CA market. KBB also has different values for the different areas of the country but, the differences are not nearly as much as some of the armchair marketeers here may think. I also noticed how low NADA has been lately as well but, not as low as Edmunds. A more accurate marketing assessment would be an MMR (Manheim Market Report). This is an average of all the TDI's that sell wholesale across the Manheim Auction's auction blocks nationwide. I am here to tell you that TDI's are not and really never were cheap by any stretch of the imagination, period! What other diesel vehicles do we have here in NA to compare as to whether TDI's are overpriced or not? When I was in Australia a few weeks back, I went to a VW dealer and saw that Golf TDI's w/o moonroofs are going for >$40K new.

Overpriced? I guess it would depend on whether you really wanted one or not, eh? Later!

dariod · Jan 1, 2008

That 50 MPG savings you can trow in garbage considering the price of diesel and also how QUALITY is the VW product. You can buy a 30 mpg Toyota Corolla that will outlast 2 VW TDI and will never break down and save money.

weiky79 · Jan 1, 2008

toyota sucks! lol

aja8888 · Jan 1, 2008

Hmmm, been looking at this board for a while now....

This is my first post here after hanging around for a while.

Interesting posts above and thoughts on the "value" of TDI cars. My friend in Connecticut has a Passat wagon (2005 I believe). After I drove it last year, I started looking into maybe picking one up for these reasons:

1. Fuel economy
2. Station wagon (I need to carry light cargo occasionaly)
3. Need to replace a 1999 Toyota Camry

I am at a quandry as to what these things are really worth given their propensity for high maintenance versus "gassers", the rising price of diesel fuel in the US (low PPM sulfur costs) and quality issues I have picked up on during my research into TDI's. As a note, our Camry (origionally bought in CA and now in TX with us) has 189,000 on its 4 cylinder engine and transmission and has never had any serious repairs needed. It uses a quart of oil in 3,000 miles, gets 32 MPG on the freeway with the A/C on and is quite comfortable. It lacks the space I need though. The Camry will be deeded to our college student who will commute to school about 100 miles per day. It remains a very reliable car.

We also have a 2005 Hyundai XG350 (top of the line for them) that has 63,000 on the clock that my wife drives for work. Besides oil changes, it has never seen the dealer for a repair. We did have the timing belt replaced at 60K to hold on to the 100K warranty. Beautiful car for just over $21K out the door; They have come a long way.

I am concerned about rising fuel prices in the US. I work in the oil & gas industry and have a pretty good vision as to where this country is headed in the next few years (fuel pricing). It's not looking good, believe me. My dilemma is whether to bite the bullet and pick up a used TDI wagon now or wait for the Hondas to come into the market and start to dominate the diesel segment like they have done with everything else they build.

This post is kind of a bit of rambling but I want to let you "vetrans" see the reason why I am having a problem pulling the trigger on a TDI. They are for sale here, on eBay, in the local car lots, etc. It's not like they are hard to get. But am I wrong in feeling like they are artificially put on a pedestal because of the fuel economy? When I factor in the "offsets" I see, I am having a hard time justifying paying more than "book" (whatever that is, and I don't even start to believe that the "free" price guides have any bearing on what banks will lend or what dealers buy them for).

Thoughts? Am I missing something about TDI's?

Thanks in advance for your replies,

Tony
Houston, Texas

weiky79 · Jan 1, 2008

um, I have an '03 Malibu LS for sale! 38Kmiles, it's a 6 with plenty of room! quite a bit cheaper than a tdi wagon, for sure!

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 2, 2008

As a car enthusiast I recognize that most of my car purchases are more emotional than logical. When it's not my car I do better. I bought a Kia Sedona for my wife two years ago because it cost half what a comparably equipped Toyota would have cost, and it's been great transportation and dead reliable. It's not even bad to drive, for what it is. But I wouldn't want it as my daily driver.

If you think TDIs are expensive now, wait until Spring. I just heard on CNBC this morning that folks expect oil to be at a sustainable price of $85-90/barrel in 2008. That translates into an average gasoline price of $3.50-4.00. People will be trying to out-bid each other for TDIs, I predict.

Look at it this way: I bought a new Jetta wagon in '02. It stickered at $19,473, the dealer sold it to me for $18,004 because it was a TDI and had crank windows. He thought he'd get stuck with it. And it was the only Jetta wagon that dealer got that year. Six model years and 176K later KBB on the car is $12,000. Edmunds is about 10K for a private party, $11,000 for a dealer. So for $6K in depreciation I've driven 175K. And I've had a lot of fun with the car, and because of its mods it drives much better than new and is unique. And you flat can't fill the thing up. I unloaded an 800 lb. pallet of parts into the wagon to get it to my shop the other day: It all fit in. I took it up north to snowboard yesterday and I made the 235 mile trip on a little less than 1/4 tank. And it'll run happily all day at 90 MPH and still return about 40 MPG. Can you tell I'm an enthusiast?

I had a '92 Camry and it was a great car. Quick (V6), fairly economical on fuel, and very durable and reliable. But not a lot of fun. Get a wagon now. Worse comes to worse, you can sell it in the spring at a profit. Honda doesn't even have a wagon in the US except the Fit, and if you wait for a Subaru you'll be saddled with AWD. And either way there won't be any used ones out there, so VWs will hold their value.

natebg · Jan 2, 2008

Great looking car, same as mine except mine is the manual transmission.

For the AWD, I am waiting for the Tiguan 4Motion 2.0 TDI (and hopefully it will not be a long wait) - we need one AWD car so, we bought a '07 Subaru Legacy for my wife to hold us over until the Tiguan, or Subaru has the diesel.

This is a fine specimen, if I was looking for a wagon - I would pull the trigger and never look back (I never did since buying mine new)!

Good luck with the sale.

Harvieux · Jan 2, 2008

aja8888 said:
This is my first post here after hanging around for a while.

Interesting posts above and thoughts on the "value" of TDI cars. My friend in Connecticut has a Passat wagon (2005 I believe). After I drove it last year, I started looking into maybe picking one up for these reasons:

1. Fuel economy
2. Station wagon (I need to carry light cargo occasionaly)
3. Need to replace a 1999 Toyota Camry

I am at a quandry as to what these things are really worth given their propensity for high maintenance versus "gassers", the rising price of diesel fuel in the US (low PPM sulfur costs) and quality issues I have picked up on during my research into TDI's. As a note, our Camry (origionally bought in CA and now in TX with us) has 189,000 on its 4 cylinder engine and transmission and has never had any serious repairs needed. It uses a quart of oil in 3,000 miles, gets 32 MPG on the freeway with the A/C on and is quite comfortable. It lacks the space I need though. The Camry will be deeded to our college student who will commute to school about 100 miles per day. It remains a very reliable car.

We also have a 2005 Hyundai XG350 (top of the line for them) that has 63,000 on the clock that my wife drives for work. Besides oil changes, it has never seen the dealer for a repair. We did have the timing belt replaced at 60K to hold on to the 100K warranty. Beautiful car for just over $21K out the door; They have come a long way.

I am concerned about rising fuel prices in the US. I work in the oil & gas industry and have a pretty good vision as to where this country is headed in the next few years (fuel pricing). It's not looking good, believe me. My dilemma is whether to bite the bullet and pick up a used TDI wagon now or wait for the Hondas to come into the market and start to dominate the diesel segment like they have done with everything else they build.

This post is kind of a bit of rambling but I want to let you "vetrans" see the reason why I am having a problem pulling the trigger on a TDI. They are for sale here, on eBay, in the local car lots, etc. It's not like they are hard to get. But am I wrong in feeling like they are artificially put on a pedestal because of the fuel economy? When I factor in the "offsets" I see, I am having a hard time justifying paying more than "book" (whatever that is, and I don't even start to believe that the "free" price guides have any bearing on what banks will lend or what dealers buy them for).

Thoughts? Am I missing something about TDI's?

Thanks in advance for your replies,

Tony
Houston, Texas

We have gone through this stuff many, many times here over the years. Bottom line is that TDI's are not for everyone. Just like most German and British cars, they are not lack of service forgiving. I think there are many other reasons people get hooked on TDI's besides their unsurpassed fuel mileage. First off, you have a great German engineered vehicle that doesn't cost nearly as much as a BMW or MBZ, low end torque to die for, and a driving feel that can't be duplicated by the non German mfgs. Of course, I could go on and on but, if the things most of us enthusiests already realize can't be understood or experienced by those trying to analyze via CR, calculating/comparing numbers, maintenance costs, etc., I think a Toyonda is in their cards. Know whadda mean?

BTW, did I mention second to none resale value for the TDI's which seems to always be left out of those calculating? Later!

aja8888 · Jan 2, 2008

Harvieux said:
BTW, did I mention second to none resale value for the TDI's which seems to always be left out of those calculating? Later!

Harvieux, thanks for the insights. I have owned several German and British cars through the years. The British ones I can, and should, try to permanently forget I ever owned! Ever had a 1975 Jensen Healy? I did! Used to walk it home now and then....

Your comment on resale value is valid, except that future resale value cannot be accurately relied upon by an owner for lots of reasons, most of which are out of his control (accidents, market conditions, etc).

Besides having a passion for owning a TDI, the bottom line is still cost per mile over the life of the car. From a practical standpoint, that equates to the sum of purchase price, costs to insure and register, finance costs, maintenance costs, fuel costs, etc divided by total miles driven less resale revenue.

Before I buy one of these TDI wagons (and I am serious about doing that), I would like to hear from current or past owners their "experience" with evaluating their cost per mile with a TDI. Right now I have no knowledge basis except for hearing praise about MPG, resale value, etc. As a practicing engineer, I am less emotional about buying cars than probably most on these forums since we know that the typical forum member is an enthusiast of sorts.

Since I am a couple of years away from "retiring" from my employment within the day-to-day oil and gas business, the vehicle I purchase now will be one that will not have tons of miles put on it and will be with me and the wife for hopefully a long time.

Tony

dieseldorf · Jan 2, 2008

aja8888 said:
Before I buy one of these TDI wagons (and I am serious about doing that), I would like to hear from current or past owners their "experience" with evaluating their cost per mile with a TDI. Right now I have no knowledge basis except for hearing praise about MPG, resale value, etc. As a practicing engineer, I am less emotional about buying cars than probably most on these forums since we know that the typical forum member is an enthusiast of sorts.

AJ, some folks have been lucky, others have not. There was a great thread on this comparing operating costs between a TDi and a Crown Vic

The best possible scenario is to buy one new at a traditional VW discount and plan on driving it for many years and keeping up with the maintenance. For those who don't keep cars long enough, it's unlikely you're going to "breakeven" when the fuel is priced 10 - 20% higher than gasoline. Many of these cars are saddled with automatic trans which ends up being the ultimate deal killer.

Welcome aboard!

aja8888 · Jan 2, 2008

Thanks for the welcome!

dieseldorf said:
AJ, some folks have been lucky, others have not. There was a great thread on this comparing operating costs between a TDi and a Crown Vic

The best possible scenario is to buy one new at a traditional VW discount and plan on driving it for many years and keeping up with the maintenance. For those who don't keep cars long enough, it's unlikely you're going to "breakeven" when the fuel is priced 10 - 20% higher than gasoline. Many of these cars are saddled with automatic trans which ends up being the ultimate deal killer.

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the welcome! I'll have to search for that thread. And, if I bought one of the TDI wagons, my plan is to keep it a long time. So where do I find the senario: "buy one new at a traditional VW discount"? I thought (without much research on my part) that VW was not importing TDI's for the last couple of years.

dieseldorf · Jan 2, 2008

You need to wait 'til the cars start arriving again...supposedly at the end of the year.

There was a huge wave of new '06 cars and the two dealers here struggled to give them away at silly, low prices. I was somewhat surprised.

Harvieux · Jan 2, 2008

aja8888 said:
Harvieux, thanks for the insights. I have owned several German and British cars through the years. The British ones I can, and should, try to permanently forget I ever owned! Ever had a 1975 Jensen Healy? I did! Used to walk it home now and then....

Your comment on resale value is valid, except that future resale value cannot be accurately relied upon by an owner for lots of reasons, most of which are out of his control (accidents, market conditions, etc).

Besides having a passion for owning a TDI, the bottom line is still cost per mile over the life of the car. From a practical standpoint, that equates to the sum of purchase price, costs to insure and register, finance costs, maintenance costs, fuel costs, etc divided by total miles driven less resale revenue.

Before I buy one of these TDI wagons (and I am serious about doing that), I would like to hear from current or past owners their "experience" with evaluating their cost per mile with a TDI. Right now I have no knowledge basis except for hearing praise about MPG, resale value, etc. As a practicing engineer, I am less emotional about buying cars than probably most on these forums since we know that the typical forum member is an enthusiast of sorts.

Since I am a couple of years away from "retiring" from my employment within the day-to-day oil and gas business, the vehicle I purchase now will be one that will not have tons of miles put on it and will be with me and the wife for hopefully a long time.

Tony

TDI's have always been strong even in the weakest of markets, especially when comparing them to the general gas offerings. The TDI's strong market value has been tested and tested since their NA inception. Even with diesel being at a 10%-20% or so premium over RUG, they remain strong for various other reasons with the main reason being supply and demand. I think the only time this may change is when other mfgs. get on the diesel bandwagon. Until then, the TDI's will be the king of the road in it's small but fanatical niche arena. Later!

fireboy · Jan 2, 2008

Harvieux said:
TDI's have always been strong even in the weakest of markets, especially when comparing them to the general gas offerings. The TDI's strong market value has been tested and tested since their NA inception. Even with diesel being at a 10%-20% or so premium over RUG, they remain strong for various other reasons with the main reason being supply and demand. I think the only time this may change is when other mfgs. get on the diesel bandwagon. Until then, the TDI's will be the king of the road in it's small but fanatical niche arena. Later!

correction: diesel bandwagen...

Just my 2 cents. When I was looking for my Jetta TDI I went to a dealer that only had one used Jetta (the one I ended up purchasing). They recognized right away that I had a background in sales and they'd have to try to use logic to talk me out into a Jetta Gasser (which they had tons of!) They showed me a chart that had price/mile. This chart incorporated Purchase price, fuel price (back in January '06), insurance, maintainance costs and a few others. It did NOT take into account resale value or Longevity of the car. In the end the last number was calculated into mileage. The breakeven point for a TDI vs Gasser Jetta was 17k miles a year. Now I knew I drive more like 30k miles a year and I was going to do all my own maintainance (cuts the mx costs by about %60) and that sealed the deal for me.

They unfortunately thought I was like the rest of America and only drove 12k miles a year.

Ultimately the passion for the car sold it for me. The road hasn't always been smooth, but I know at the end of the day I got a killer deal for my situation. Your situation may not be the same, maybe you only drive 10k miles a year, maybe you don't WANT to do your own maintainance, maybe you don't care about what car you drive. You have to answer these questions, nobody can answer these questions for you. If I had the money, I'd buy a third to keep in my garage as a just-in-case vehicle. But that's just me.

Good luck

toyolla86 · Jan 2, 2008

book value

dude book value sucks. they say my 85 corolla is like right around 1000.
but a stock 85 corolla gts will sell for around 3000 easy because of the market.

its good and bad. i could sell my car for a lot more than i paid for it but if i wanted another i would probably end up paying a lot.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 2, 2008

dude your toyota is 20 years old. Who can accurately calculate value on a 20 year-old car? And you live where things don't rust. Most of us don't.

DD, did the 06s really go cheap? I did the 3193 thing and paid a bit over invoice, but I didn't follow prices after I bought mine.

And aja8888 I asked my mechanic (a long time vw tech now running his own tdi shop) what the secret was to getting a car with a long, trouble-free life. His answer: "buy new and take care of it." It's worked for me with my '02. But you may not see any new TDI wagons in the US anytime soon.

MikeS_18 · Jan 2, 2008

I agree with all that has been said here, with the caveat that I'd steer away from the automatic transmission.

vwjettadsl · Jan 2, 2008

dariod said:
That 50 MPG savings you can trow in garbage considering the price of diesel and also how QUALITY is the VW product. You can buy a 30 mpg Toyota Corolla that will outlast 2 VW TDI and will never break down and save money.

So how many Corolla's can you show me that will outlast 2 TDI's like the one in my sig?

My TDI still has lots of life in it, and still looks great.

Shastapk · Jan 2, 2008

Ditto...

aja8888 · Jan 2, 2008

What I have learned so far....

1. No new VW diesels until 2009 (that's OK as I am in the used market),
2. Stay away from automatic transmissions (explain? reliability? mileage, cost to repair?)
3. Stay away from dealer repair shops (I already do that)
4. Do some of your own maintenance if you can (Not a problem for me)
5. There is no book value that is meaningful (I knew that too).
6. There are no free lunches...

So, after pounding through several "reliability" threads here, I am no better off figuring what might be the best bet (for me) for a used TDI wagon? Passat or Jetta size (both would be OK), what year(s) is recommended? Any major years/models to absolutely stay away from? I will drive 12,000 - 18,000 miles per year when I retire (2 years away). I am very mechanically inclined and have built engines, etc. I do my own oil changes and minor maintenance. On our Camry, I replaced the last timing belt.

I may be wearing this out, but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all the help so far!

Tony

quantum_tdi · Jan 2, 2008

aja8888 said:
6. There are no free lunches...

Tony

You said it. The problem in deciding between a TDI and high mileage gasser is going to be a matter of no free lunch. They have to do quite a bit of trimming to get that mileage out of the gasser. Anemic engine, no room, or less than safe car (or a mix of all three). Some people don't much care about the feel or safety of their cars. If you do and like the German feel, the best you can do right now is buy a Jetta wagon 5-speed with a good (and documented) maintenance history driven by an enthusiast. What that means is you will pay a premium for it... With 12K-18K miles/year you aren't going to be making up for the cost of the vehicle in the near future unless you sell during inflated market times ($pring).

If you need the room of a Passat, you're going be hurting more. And you'll have to drive an automatic. Unless you really dive in and buy a B4V (come see us nuts in the A3/B4 maintenance section

)

aja8888 · Jan 2, 2008

quantum_tdi said:
You said it. The problem in deciding between a TDI and high mileage gasser is going to be a matter of no free lunch. They have to do quite a bit of trimming to get that mileage out of the gasser. Anemic engine, no room, or less than safe car (or a mix of all three). Some people don't much care about the feel or safety of their cars. If you do and like the German feel, the best you can do right now is buy a Jetta wagon 5-speed with a good (and documented) maintenance history driven by an enthusiast. What that means is you will pay a premium for it... With 12K-18K miles/year you aren't going to be making up for the cost of the vehicle in the near future unless you sell during inflated market times ($pring).

If you need the room of a Passat, you're going be hurting more. And you'll have to drive an automatic. Unless you really dive in and buy a B4V (come see us nuts in the A3/B4 maintenance section )

Yes, it sounds like the Jetta is the model to start looking at since I don't need a lot of cargo space. But I definately would like a wagon since there are no small diesel SUV's out there (that I know of). I will poke around the A3/B4 maintenance section to see what is talked about.

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