Exhaust Flap - Weak Link in Emissions System?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I think there may be a problem surfacing with one of the components in the CR tdi emissions system. (At least it surfaced on my 2009 tdi !!)
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]On 2/13/10, the CEL came on after fueling up my 09 tdi. It stayed on the rest of the week until I took it in the following Friday (2/19) for a state inspection. The repair shop that I take the car to for servicing found the following code: “P048C – Sensor for Exhaust Flap”.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](The reason the car is at a repair shop and not the dealer, is that the car had just turned 40,000 miles. The dealer didn’t instill confidence in me after they overfilled the crankcase in 2 of the 3 free oil changes – but I digress. I have been using this repair shop since the mid-90’s on a 1990 diesel Jetta and 2003 Passat.) [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The owner at the repair shop suggested that I bring this up with the dealer and see if they would perform a good faith repair since it is emissions related and only 4,000 miles out of warrantee. I brought the car to the dealer and they indicated that I will need to take it up directly with VW. I also found out that the sensor is $89, the exhaust flap is $410, and the flap is back-ordered. I thanked them for the information and set up an appointment at the repair shop to have the fault code addressed and have the DSG transmission serviced.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The repair was performed on 3/1. The exhaust flap has an electric motor that opens and closes a flap inside the exhaust pipe. They suspect it’s function is to speed the heating of the cats that precede it. They found that the flap was bound up. It had a lot of soot built up that stopped the flap from opening and closing. Instead of replacing it, they were able to clean it. They tested it after and the flap operated fine. They also mentioned that removing the exhaust flap was not difficult.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I inquired if it was soot or corrosion that bound up the flap and it was definitely not corrosion. But soot from where?? The only thought I have at this time is that it is residue from the regen cycle collecting on the flap. We have no idea how long the fix will last – 400, 4000, or 40,000 miles. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I can’t see the exhaust flap itself being the problem; instead it looks like something from upstream is collecting at this component. There were no other codes thrown so the rest of the emissions system is probably within spec. Is this problem a function of the emissions system design? [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Several people have seen this already and given the fact that the part is back-ordered, leads me to believe that this problem may be systemic in nature. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]When the code was thrown I didn’t notice any loss in power or drop in fuel economy. Some of the specifics for the my tdi are it is driven mostly at highway speeds, located in NH, I do use the Power Service additive (white bottle) with every fill-up, and oil changes every 10K. (I did check with the service rep to make sure that 507 oil was used during the free oil changes, and supposedly it was. If they used the 505 oil instead, maybe the higher ash content caused this – more ash, more regen cycles, more soot?)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]When/if the problem surfaces again, I’ll try to get some pictures of the flap – but hopefully I won’t see it again for a while. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]BTW, parts and labor for the DSG service and repair of the exhaust flap came to $400. If the dealer performed the exhaust flap “repair”, I figured it would have cost me ~$500 for parts and labor. The DSG service would have been on top of that – ouch![/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I’ll keep everyone posted if I learn anything else or if the CEL comes on again for this issue (it has been fine over the last 2 days).

I just wanted to pass this along in case others see this code and are wondering what is going on.

Regards,

Marty
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FYI emissions system is coverer under the 80K which is forced on VW by the feds if i am not mistaken.

What dealer? Seacoast? I and a few other members have had good luck with Barenger in Rodchester.

How reputable is your fuel source. Are you possibly, unbeknownst to you, getting high concentrations of bio?

Thanks - I forgot to mention that. The 80K emissions warranty only covers the Catalytic Converter, Engine Electronics Control Module, and On Board Diagnostics Device (OBD). I did inquire if the Exhaust Flap was covered and they said it was not.

The dealer is Lakes Region VW. I may take a drive to Barenger just to see what their view on the emissions warranty is and if this component is covered.

The diesel fuel I use is from either Shell or Irving - pretty reliable fuel sources in the Northeast.

Marty

They're lying to you. The entire exhaust system is covered as part of the emissions system Federally mandated 80 Thousand mile warranty. The part in question is known to fail prematurely, and it is present only on the new CR TDI cars, so tell the Dealer to stop lying to you. Call the NHTSA.

Could be the clogging from soot is pretty common on the CR's and the reason the exhaust flap valves are back ordered is that most dealers most likely replace them rather that clean them.

Time to find a different dealer. Clearly, any part that directly effects emissions IS covered for the full duration of the emissions warranty. If you Check engine light stays on with an accompanying DTC, then you have an emissions related problem. DTCs that are not emission related will not leave the CEL on usually.

The exhaust flap's purpose is to create backpressure in the exhaust to help feed the EGR system when the engine is under boost. The dual EGR system is critical to emissions so no reason at all that this part wouldn't be covered under the emissions warranty.

There are 2 other dealers near by. I am going to check with them tomorrow and see what they say. I agree that it should be covered under the emissions warranty. If this is a design related issue, VW could be replacing a lot of these over that period, unless of course if they come up with a fix. Wonder if any of the dealers thought about cleaning it first! But then again, they probably don't care - VW is paying them.

Marty

they also may claim that you need to drive it more gusto, a little italian tune up could do it good, get those EGT up and clean it out.

Good point. Maybe that will result in less particulates getting into the DPF and fewer regens. Who knows. I did get to 40K before the problem surfaced and most of the other replacements are occurring on the 36K warranty - less miles. We need more data points. Unfortunately, with the dealers doing the replacements we are not likely to get too much info from them.

But more spirited driving certainly can't hurt!!

I am in experimental territory here with the cleaning of the exhaust flap. Doesn't appear that this has been done to anyone else's tdi yet. I reached the 400 mile point today and no CEL.

Marty

Another Data Point

Hi Marty, I would like to add a data point for you. Your story is pretty much the same as mine, my engine light came on last year at around 40K. No issues driving, now have about 45K on. 09 Sedan, same dealership story about the part.

As for the suggested Italian Tune up (peformed quite regularly ) apparently did not help at all as I am in the same boat.

Additionally, my car was built in August 08, could be something that may be recalled down the road.

I will definitely take the suggestion about cleaning the part rather than replacing, as I could end up saving quite a bit (as you have mentioned previously).

Glad I did this search today, my car is going in tomorrow for this reason.

John

shrifty said:

Glad I did this search today, my car is going in tomorrow for this reason.

John

Click to expand...

It should be going into the dealer and is IS covered under fedral 80k warranty. The exhaust is covered up to the final emissions-related (illegal to delete) component. The final muffler/resonator and connecting pipers are not covered. The feds are very prickly about these regs.

My car is going in to the dealer tomorow, I will have to check on this. Unfortunately I am not the one taking my car in. I will definitely save every document regarding this issue. Thanks for the info!

Would you happen to know if this is in the Owner's Manual?

Hi John,

Please let us know how you make out. I am very curious if the dealer will clean the flap for you or if they will insist that it get replaced. Also, how did they respond about replacing the flap under the emissions warranty? The dealer I went to didn't even blink an eye - it wasn't covered. I at least expected them to check into it. It appears that they already checked for someone else and knew the answer.

BTW - I have now logged ~3K miles since cleaning the flap and no CEL.

Thanks,

Marty

From what I've heard, they replaced the part. When I asked about it being under warranty, they said no and that it would cost around $500 to replace. They did say the part was back ordered and could take a few weeks to be delivered. This was originally back in November/December, but since I was leaving around then I decided to wait until now to get it done before I get back home.

Glad to hear that you didn't need to get yours replaced. I would imagine as more people reach this mileage we could have another potential recall coming up. I would hope that the work already done if a recall is issued that I will be reimbursed for it.

You'd think this part would be good for more than 40K, we'll see in a year or so how it is around 80K...

The part in question is there for emission control purposes so if they tell you that you have to pay for it, call the State Atty Generals office and file a complaint against the dealership. That part is only available from VW and it is an exhaust system emission control device. The manufacturer has to cover it under emissions warranty or provide it free under Mag-Moss, as it is only available from them, and is required to keep the vehicle in compliance with the Federal Clean Air Act. No aftermarket exists for that part. That is the key to a Mag Moss violation.

Agreed!

Thanks for the input. I will look into this once I return. I wish I had done more research on replacing this part prior to agreeing to have it replaced.

I realize the link is a bit dated (best I could find) http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/warr95fs.txt but I think I might have an issue with the following:

* Emission control and emission related parts are covered for the
first 2 years or 24,000 miles of vehicle use; and

* Specified major emission control components are covered for the
first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use.

I don't know if the exhaust flap falls into the "specified" component. Although my car is within the first 2 years, I have about 45K on it which could mean that it is not covered.

If you do have to pay for a replacement, insist on getting the old part(s) back. You can try cleaning it and keeping as a spare.

Funny I have the same problem with my 09 Jetta Sedan. Light came on 2/4 white in Ytown OH with 56000 on vehicle. Went to local dealer to diagnosis and cme up with the exhaust flap code. Was told would cost $634 to repair since out of warranty. I said thanks but no and drove home to Cleveland. On way called VW customer service and told them I thought that was ridiculous for an only 1 yr old car. Asked me to take to my local dealer and rediagnosis. Found same and reported to VW. They came back to me with they would cover parts ($450) but I pay for labor. Since then waiting for part to come in. None in US had to send to Germany. Today is 3/26.
Actually, the odd thing is my mileage seems to have improved since this problem. CEL on all the time. Getting 610 miles or more on a tank. Vehicle now has 64000 miles on it. Actually one a trip home from Toledo filled up, got on Tpike, set cruise at 72, drove back to Cleveland got off and topped tank. Calculated MPG at 48.6 for that trip.
I am tempted to just leave it off till I have to get my emmissons check done. Won't pass with light on but I will address it then. If part comes in I will have them hold onto it.
Interesting point though about the emmisions system with longer warranty. As I said two dealers and VW told me not covered.
Stay tuned film at 11.

kingcone said:

Actually, the odd thing is my mileage seems to have improved since this problem. CEL on all the time. Getting 610 miles or more on a tank. Vehicle now has 64000 miles on it. Actually one a trip home from Toledo filled up, got on Tpike, set cruise at 72, drove back to Cleveland got off and topped tank. Calculated MPG at 48.6 for that trip.

Click to expand...

What kind of average mileage were you getting before the problem?

Dweisel

I hate "I told you so's" but, I predicted way B4 the actual introduction of these new CR clean diesels that there would be a boatload of issues. I could list them off but I think you all get my drift. Not that all the predecessors didn't have their own set of issues but, these CR's are way, way too sensative and much more expensive to repair out of warranty. I even knew the chinsy 36K reduced BB factory warranty would be a disaster as well. Just wait until those who pass the 36K mark and start to develop HPFP problems. Oh yea I forgot, it's a customer induced fuel contamination issue, eh? Even though I haven't offered my prime pre-owned TDIs to this venue for a good number of years now, some of the earlier naysayers were accusing me of bashing the new CRs in order to scare people into buying my units rather than go new. All I can say is the proof is in the pudding but, *** do I know, eh? Did I mention the brutal attacks spewed out from some of the bioD crowd regarding its use with these CRs? That's another topic on its own, know whadda mean? Later!

Just to reiterate, the local tdi mechanic that I use was able to clean the flap and it is now operating fine - 3K miles so far and no CEL. The total bill to fix the flap, perform a DSG service, and perform an inspection/emissions test was $400. The bill wasn't broken down, but I am sure the DSG service was most of the bill. It appears that the dealerships are all consistent so far on the replacement of this part - after the 36K warranty, it is on your nickle. And they seem to all have the same back order story, so there are probably a high number of failures - or more than they expected.

Kingcone - I don't know if further damage will occur by letting it go. The flap is driven by an electric motor. I was getting a code registered every time I started the car. I believe the fault was generated when the motor attempted to move the flap and it didn't deploy. If yes, and you put on an additional 8000 miles since the CEL came on, the motor may be burned out. I rode with the CEL for 2 weeks (~1K miles) before it was "fixed". Keep us posted on how you make out.

I think I drove about 3K before having mine replaced, and from what I've heard the car is fine. I'll definitely have to call VW's customer service to see if I can get reimbursed for the work that was already done, but not holding my breath on that. I think if more people have this issue (no idea how common of an issue this is) we could see a recall on it.

For my 6 fillups prior to the CEL light I avaraged 40.98 MPG. For the 14 fillups since the light is on I have averaged 43.3 MPG. DOn't know if that is the main factor or the warmer weather helping as well. Either way it is up.

I don't understand the one comment about driving with the light on may "burn up" the motor? If this is just rerouting exhaust gas how could it have that effect? The dealer didn't seem to be concerned while we are waiting for the part.

As you can tell I drive alot and that was a primary reason for going to the TDI.

On further examination of Mpriolo's comment, maybe he was refering to "burning out the motor" on the flap. That could be since mind is on "steady on" mode all the time.

yep - that's correct. I was referring to the electric motor that opens and closes the flap - not the engine.

mpriolo said:

The exhaust flap has an electric motor that opens and closes a flap inside the exhaust pipe...It had a lot of soot built up that stopped the flap from opening and closing.

Click to expand...

Wait a minute, back up the bus.... I'm kinda surprised that no one has pointed out in this thread that the exhaust flap is downstream of the DPF on the CBEA engine -- way, way downstream (at least that's what the CBEA exhaust system diagram in my Bentley manual shows). In which case, was it really soot buildup and, if so, why is the flap able to see enough soot to get itself cr@pped up???? If soot accumulation is in fact the cause, then I would suggest that your DPF is not F'ing DPs correctly. That's definitely an EPA (or at least a CARB) no-no. You might-could ask VW Customer Care if it has any second thoughts on requiring you to pay the labor on this repair before you drop a dime to EPA (that's how I'd play it, anyways). If you have access to VCDS I'd be really interested to see a week's worth of daily readings of your DPF pressure differential (measured with the engine at operating temperature, in Park, at 2000 RPMs). If your experience is anything like mine, that pressure differential should be sommers in the range of about 13-28 PSI (your car and mine have similar miles on the ODO), depending on your miles since last regen...much less than 13 PSI and I'd suspect that your DPF is laying down on the job and soot is just passin' through (in which case they would owe you a new DPF, definitely under warranty).

It's been some time since I looked, but doesn't the valve have a shaft and spring on the outside, where you can see it?

Bump. I'm intrigued by the fact (see post #28) that an exhaust component downstream of the diesel particulate filter could get cr@pped up with soot. Would welcome hearing more thoughts than just my own on this.